Your Opinion? bans- when should they be permanent??

[daguin]

^^^For most situations. I mean I wouldn't have said a word or asked a single question if I knew that he

1. Had his own company - however small or large.
2. Used multiple accounts at the same time, using one to support the others.

1. Would be clear reason for warning.
2. Would be clear reason for a permaban.

My main point is that it should NOT be NECESSARY to explain this. **IF** the members were reading the threads, they were clearly aware that he was a returning banned member who had a small, Chinese, "gadget" company that was trying to expand into lasers, by using the forum as his main market.

It was well known that he was banned because he had multiple accounts.

Since newer members and members who did not know the history began asking for "clarification", the moderator was either forced to respond or ignore the requests of the members. The moderator, at that point, is in a lose/lose situation. They either lose lots of time and energy (explaining) or they lose the respect and trust of the membership.

BOTH of the pieces of information that you decided made the difference for YOU was available to the moderators AND to anyone who has paid attention in the last two months. (I have already explained the process and need for some threads to be deleted) However, instead of saying, "I do not know all the facts, but I trust that the moderators do not act in a capricious manner." You said, "Explain it to me well enough that I will agree that I would do the same thing."

When individual members "demand" that their personal questions be answered about a moderator's action, it opens a floodgate of drama. EACH member can have a question about a different aspect of the reason for the ban. That requires the moderator to answer EACH member individually. In addition, many members are NOT satisfied with the simple explanation (like the question herein). That leads to multiple posts and/or PM's to EACH member.

That then makes the situation a lose/lose for the forum as well. The moderator must take time away from moderating, which leads to an increase in SPAM and drama, which leads to more calls for moderation while there is less moderating going on

I, obviously, need more students to come in during my office hours today

Peace,
dave

 

[Mohrenberg]

You know what I say




I'm going to be honest... I have no clue who this thread is about. I'm too lazy to look back and see, and I really don't care. It's the mods job to moderate so it's none of my concern. I just wanted to spam with this nifty little video.

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

My main point is that it should NOT be NECESSARY to explain this. **IF** the members were reading the threads, they were clearly aware that he was a returning banned member who had a small, Chinese, "gadget" company that was trying to expand into lasers, by using the forum as his main market.

I read just about every thread in the B/S/T section, and many others all over the place, including reviews. There was awareness of him wanting to sell lasers, sure, also I was aware of the initial reason for his ban, although not the fact that he actually used a second account at the same time.

There is a huge difference between just creating two accounts, and actually using both at the same time IMO. One is deserving of a warning, and ban of a single non active account, the other is without a doubt deserving of a permaban for both accounts.

Since newer members and members who did not know the history began asking for "clarification", the moderator was either forced to respond or ignore the requests of the members. The moderator, at that point, is in a lose/lose situation. They either lose lots of time and energy (explaining) or they lose the respect and trust of the membership.

This is a forum of laser enthusiasts who almost by definition have authority and trust issues... at least I know I do... isn't some questioning to be expected?:undecided:

In this case it was strange, I mean he looked legit... and he was allowed to post for a while and developed a decent rep. Usually when there are questionable things going on, even those that make it past moderation, it doesn't take long for it to be noticed. He was allowed to post for a good long while after the one competed transaction on here was done.

BOTH of the pieces of information that you decided made the difference for YOU was available to the moderators AND to anyone who has paid attention in the last two months. (I have already explained the process and need for some threads to be deleted) However, instead of saying, "I do not know all the facts, but I trust that the moderators do not act in a capricious manner." You said, "Explain it to me well enough that I will agree that I would do the same thing."

A really short summary would have more than satisfied me personally. Besides, it is better when people don't always agree, or have to agree... I just like to know the reasoning involved. In this case I know I wasn't the only one who was surprised by the ban.

A single line post in a locked B/S/T thread "Banned for actively using multiple accounts." would have put it to bed for me personally.

When individual members "demand" that their personal questions be answered about a moderator's action, it opens a floodgate of drama.

I am sorry if any of my questions come off as demands, that definitely wasn't my intent. They are questions of curiosity based on a strong personal belief that people deserve to be treated without preconceptions, but based on their actions.

EACH member can have a question about a different aspect of the reason for the ban. That requires the moderator to answer EACH member individually. In addition, many members are NOT satisfied with the simple explanation (like the question herein). That leads to multiple posts and/or PM's to EACH member.

I don't agree with this. A single reason that qualifies for a permaban such as actively posting under multiple accounts is sufficient reason. In this case as it turns out there are actually three valid reasons. One line response in that "drama" thread would have killed it instantly.

That then makes the situation a lose/lose for the forum as well. The moderator must take time away from moderating, which leads to an increase in SPAM and drama, which leads to more calls for moderation while there is less moderating going on

I don't agree with this either, but for a completely different reason.

I don't think you realize how much people appreciate knowing a little of what's going on. Not everything, but even a bit goes a long way.

Frankly I appreciate your replies here a heck of a lot more than catching a couple of easy to ignore spammers. So thank you for the informative replies.

I, obviously, need more students to come in during my office hours today

Why not get a TA to cover you and go build a laser, you know you want to

 

[JaiNobeZ]

My typical response to seemingly pointless and unproductive drama threads is the phrase
"Earthworms are easier to sharpen if you freeze them first"
or something equally pointless and unproductive. Nobody so far has expressed a problem with it. You guys don't object to me responding with stupidity, right? You can just delete 'em if it's a problem.

 

[Tech_Junkie]

I read just about every thread in the B/S/T section, and many others all over the place, including reviews. There was awareness of him wanting to sell lasers, sure, also I was aware of the initial reason for his ban, although not the fact that he actually used a second account at the same time.

There is a huge difference between just creating two accounts, and actually using both at the same time IMO. One is deserving of a warning, and ban of a single non active account, the other is without a doubt deserving of a permaban for both accounts.



This is a forum of laser enthusiasts who almost by definition have authority and trust issues... at least I know I do... isn't some questioning to be expected?:undecided:

In this case it was strange, I mean he looked legit... and he was allowed to post for a while and developed a decent rep. Usually when there are questionable things going on, even those that make it past moderation, it doesn't take long for it to be noticed. He was allowed to post for a good long while after the one competed transaction on here was done.



A really short summary would have more than satisfied me personally. Besides, it is better when people don't always agree, or have to agree... I just like to know the reasoning involved. In this case I know I wasn't the only one who was surprised by the ban.

A single line post in a locked B/S/T thread "Banned for actively using multiple accounts." would have put it to bed for me personally.



I am sorry if any of my questions come off as demands, that definitely wasn't my intent. They are questions of curiosity based on a strong personal belief that people deserve to be treated without preconceptions, but based on their actions.



I don't agree with this. A single reason that qualifies for a permaban such as actively posting under multiple accounts is sufficient reason. In this case as it turns out there are actually three valid reasons. One line response in that "drama" thread would have killed it instantly.



I don't agree with this either, but for a completely different reason.

I don't think you realize how much people appreciate knowing a little of what's going on. Not everything, but even a bit goes a long way.

Frankly I appreciate your replies here a heck of a lot more than catching a couple of easy to ignore spammers. So thank you for the informative replies.



Why not get a TA to cover you and go build a laser, you know you want to

Brick alert.

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

Brick alert.

:crackup::crackup::crackup: LMFAO!!! That really made me laugh hard:beer:

 

[daguin]

Brick alert.

It's a high school (and competitive), debate technique.

"Let's just go line-by-line so I can find a weakness somewhere that I can exploit"

The debate then expands so much that people start "dropping" arguments. Then the debater jumps on those omissions as "granted" and "wins."

When posters begin the line-by-line responses, I'm usually done with them.

Peace,
dave

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

Uhm, Dave, if you take a look I actually agreed with most of what you said... I didn't debate it.

 

[Tech_Junkie]

Uhm, Dave, if you take a look I actually agreed with most of what you said... I didn't debate it.

Yeah but you dont have to post on everything you agree with. Silence on a subject usually means acceptance.

I call it "Last word" syndrome. I'm guilty myself, but I wont waste time answering each point. Also I have enough confidence in Dave's abilities not to question his actions. Dave is like me in some ways, we wear our merits on our sleeves. So I dont understand questioning his decision. Or posting if you agree, or disagree. Nothing will change either way. Also a simple PM works too. No need to keep this stupid thread going because a Chinese retailer was bounced. If it was a beloved member, maybe, but its not. This discussions has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond ridicules. There are more important things that need to be debated out there. (This goes for everybody) Let Dave do his job, and worry about the people you care about, not some clown who wants to make money off you.

 

[lasersbee]

I call it "Last word" syndrome. I'm guilty myself, but I wont waste time answering each point.

Yes you will.....
No I won't.

Yes you will.....
No I won't.

Yes you will.....
No I won't.
:na::crackup:

Jerry

 

[chipdouglas]

infinitus, you're lucky you were not around when we were self moderated man. just sayin'

michael

 

[JaiNobeZ]

It's a high school (and competitive), debate technique.

"Let's just go line-by-line so I can find a weakness somewhere that I can exploit"

The debate then expands so much that people start "dropping" arguments. Then the debater jumps on those omissions as "granted" and "wins."

When posters begin the line-by-line responses, I'm usually done with them.

Peace,
dave

Uhm, Dave, if you take a look I actually agreed with most of what you said... I didn't debate it.

Yeah but you dont have to post on everything you agree with. Silence on a subject usually means acceptance.

I call it "Last word" syndrome. I'm guilty myself, but I wont waste time answering each point. Also I have enough confidence in Dave's abilities not to question his actions. Dave is like me in some ways, we wear our merits on our sleeves. So I dont understand questioning his decision. Or posting if you agree, or disagree. Nothing will change either way. Also a simple PM works too. No need to keep this stupid thread going because a Chinese retailer was bounced.

Uhhh... I feel the urge to defend Infinitus Equitas. My understanding is that he wasn't arguing, he was discussing. Therefore firstly, it wasn't "Last word" syndrome - it was just responding to the discussion. Secondly, the line-by-line responding was just a way to cover everything in the long post and not a way to sift through for small errors in logic. And thirdly, i'm going to duck and hide now to avoid any backlash as a result of this post.

 

[Tech_Junkie]

Dave has already explained 4 times, between 2 threads, what happened. Yet people, not just IE, keep debating it. Except the fact and move on is all I'm saying.

 

[anselm]

Except the fact and move on is all I'm saying.

Except accept is written accept, not except. Yo.:na:

 

[daguin]

Uhhh... I feel the urge to defend Infinitus Equitas. My understanding is that he wasn't arguing, he was discussing. Therefore firstly, it wasn't "Last word" syndrome - it was just responding to the discussion. Secondly, the line-by-line responding was just a way to cover everything in the long post and not a way to sift through for small errors in logic. And thirdly, i'm going to duck and hide now to avoid any backlash as a result of this post.

I rarely do this, because it stifles debate.

However, I am a professor of communication. I coached both high school and collegiate forensics and debate for 20 years. I am fairly sure I understand these techniques in depth. Even if he never took debate in school, the technique is the same. Sometimes people learn things in places other than school

"Arguing" does NOT equal "fighting." I am arguing my point at this very moment. There is no difference between "discussing" and "debating." You must discuss to debate and debate requires discussion.

Nowhere in my statement did it imply that he disagreed with anything in my post. I was commenting on the technique and the way I handle it when it is used. Yet he felt compelled to make another statement in his defense even though there was no disagreement in mine.

Discussing/debating ideas is much more valuable than discussing people.

I'm off to a Laser Enthusiasts Meet-up in Oregon today. Y'all enjoy yourselves :beer:

Peace,
dave

 

[HIMNL9]

..... However, I am a professor of communication .....

Are you sure ? ..... sometimes, i don't understand your communications .....

..... uhm .....

..... er, maybe, is just cause i'm not English .....

..... uhm .....

..... but, wait, this may mean it's my guilty ? .....

.....

..... ah, well, ok, nevermind .....



(J/K )