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Your Opinion? bans- when should they be permanent??

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Lotus_Darkrose

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And if someone does come back way later, that was banned. There would be old posts of his that may use the same wording or hint that it's the same person, and easier to catch someone sneaking back into the forums. But not if those threads are removed.

Also, sometimes it's interesting just to learn more of what has happened so far on LPF. Good and bad.
 
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chipdouglas

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@ IE... when somebody is banned avery usually posts it in the off topic section.

michael.
 

daguin

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Should I just go ahead and place the "TL/DR" here for you? ;)
The length of this post should serve to illustrate the problem of requiring the mods to explain or justify their actions to the membership. This treatise still only addresses a small portion of the concerns expressed herein. Not only is it too long for most of you to be willing to read, It took me almost 20 minutes to compose. That is 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back again AND 20 minutes spent on the computer and in the forum when I was NOT moderating.


Threads are only erased if there is an element of SPAMMING to them or if they have significant fighting or trolling

I will agree that the definition of SPAM is less than precise. Unfortunately, it has to be. It is not science. It is art. Leaving the SPAM-like posts and threads visible, would serve to reward SPAM-like behavior

If there is significant fighting and/or trolling, the thread must go away to remove the irritant from the eyes of the contestants. Often times these types are simply locked.

Despite all of these concerns, the general membership will NEVER know everything that goes on behind the scenes. It would lead to unmanageable chaos. Those that have been around long enough will remember the days of "member moderation" I doubt that anyone actually wants to return to those days.

I stop an average of ~7 SPAMMERS a day from ever posting in this forum. The few that do get through are usually found rather quickly by the alert members here. This forum and our membership have a very low tolerance for SPAM-like behavior. If a member displays SPAM-like behavior, that member will usually be gone quickly

If you truly want to know what happened, PM a mod. I do not believe that I have ever refused to answer questions about a banning. Sometimes there are some sensitive issues that will remain "hidden", but normally, I will let you know what happened.

The main problem with this is that I will then ask you not to spread it around. There is probably a reason that it was not left in the boards. We have seen just recently what happens when someone tries to use the forum membership to defend themselves. People with absolutely no interest in the problem or member, feel compelled to put their two cents in. This only serves to perpetuate and increase the drama. Then when the drama begins to get out of hand, there is a cry for bannings and punishments against the new contestants ;)

If a member is simply "banned" the threads and posts remain. Look around, you will find MANY posts and threads of banned members remaining. If there are components of the thread that would drive drama higher or that would reward SPAM-like behavior, they will (and should) be deleted.

Many times members are given warnings. Some of you in this thread have received them ;) MANY temp-bans are awarded. They are based on the severity of the action and who the member is. Sometimes permanent bans are given as a first action. Unfortunately, y'all do not (and will not) know everything that happens behind the scenes.

If you disagree with an action, voice your opinion to a mod. However, if that mod disagrees with you, accept that they are pretty good at what they do. Without any of you knowing, we mods consult with each other about a great many things. You will not get to hear about them either.

As far as I am concerned any ban evasion is grounds for continuing the ban (or increasing it to a perma-ban). If a member is willing to break the rules the first time to get banned (temp or perm) and then knowingly breaks the rules again to try to continue or argue, that clearly shows that they do NOT think that the rules apply to them.

And if someone does come back way later, that was banned. There would be old posts of his that may use the same wording or hint that it's the same person, and easier to catch someone sneaking back into the forums. But not if those threads are removed.

Also, sometimes it's interesting just to learn more of what has happened so far on LPF. Good and bad.

I guarantee you that there are perma-banned members in the forum today. If they come back, express remorse, and then keep their actions acceptable, they are left alone. If, however, they begin to act up again, the "multiple accounts" rule is standing by to spank them again. This is what happened with the most recent problematic ban.

@ IE... when somebody is banned avery usually posts it in the off topic section.

michael.


This only applies when the member has a significant amount of tenure

Peace,
dave

**EDIT** -- Add 10 more minutes to time spent while responding to the posts that came in while I was composing ;)
 
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Tech_Junkie

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You wont like me when I get angry.

 

InfinitusEquitas

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Should I just go ahead and place the "TL/DR" here for you? ;)

LOL! Never... I enjoy reading and usually go through 3-5 paperbacks a months.

Fair warning though... response is quite long. Likewise I don't think most people will read through it.

I will agree that the definition of SPAM is less than precise. Unfortunately, it has to be. It is not science. It is art. Leaving the SPAM-like posts and threads visible, would serve to reward SPAM-like behavior

I agree... I guess I'm just more tolerant of what is spam, and what isn't. The forum, is very clean though, so thank you for that.

If there is significant fighting and/or trolling, the thread must go away to remove the irritant from the eyes of the contestants. Often times these types are simply locked.

Best way to deal with the problem. Maybe also a better way to deal with some of the other spam situations. Allows the thread to drop with a little time, but it's still there for future record.

Despite all of these concerns, the general membership will NEVER know everything that goes on behind the scenes. It would lead to unmanageable chaos. Those that have been around long enough will remember the days of "member moderation" I doubt that anyone actually wants to return to those days.

Democracy historically never worked in any organization. Problems arise even faster depending on how good(fast) the system of communication is, and the size of the organization.

I stop an average of ~7 SPAMMERS a day from ever posting in this forum.

Unfortunately that doesn't surprise me at all. Some of the newer spambots aren't deterred by captcha at all. Thank you for stopping the ones that get through.

If you truly want to know what happened, PM a mod. I do not believe that I have ever refused to answer questions about a banning. Sometimes there are some sensitive issues that will remain "hidden", but normally, I will let you know what happened.

Will do. Usually there is just not enough reason to do so. I mean for 99% of the bans, it's crystal clear. Even when it isn't for the most part I would rather leave it to those who want the responsibility. This latest situation had be rather curious though, and believe me, if the threads were there I would have been happy to do the detective work on my own.

Should I just go ahead and place the "TL/DR" here for you? ;)

LOL! Never... I enjoy reading and usually go through 3-5 paperbacks a months.

I will agree that the definition of SPAM is less than precise. Unfortunately, it has to be. It is not science. It is art. Leaving the SPAM-like posts and threads visible, would serve to reward SPAM-like behavior

I agree... I guess I'm just more tolerant of what is spam, and what isn't. The forum, is very clean though, so thank you for that.

If there is significant fighting and/or trolling, the thread must go away to remove the irritant from the eyes of the contestants. Often times these types are simply locked.

Best way to deal with the problem. Maybe also a better way to deal with some of the other spam situations. Allows the thread to drop with a little time, but it's still there for future record.

Despite all of these concerns, the general membership will NEVER know everything that goes on behind the scenes. It would lead to unmanageable chaos. Those that have been around long enough will remember the days of "member moderation" I doubt that anyone actually wants to return to those days.

Democracy historically never worked in any organization. Problems arise even faster depending on how good(fast) the system of communication is, and the size of the organization.

I stop an average of ~7 SPAMMERS a day from ever posting in this forum.

Unfortunately that doesn't surprise me at all. Some of the newer spambots aren't deterred by captcha at all. Thank you for stopping the ones that get through.

The main problem with this is that I will then ask you not to spread it around. There is probably a reason that it was not left in the boards. We have seen just recently what happens when someone tries to use the forum membership to defend themselves. People with absolutely no interest in the problem or member, feel compelled to put their two cents in. This only serves to perpetuate and increase the drama. Then when the drama begins to get out of hand, there is a cry for bannings and punishments against the new contestants ;)

I deal with FAS/DOD suppliers on a daily basis, and have signed more NDAs than I can count. So I understand the need for discretion and diplomacy... However when there isn't anyone actually being hurt (scammed), and when it's mostly a polite discussion, I really don't see a reason not to let it burn on out it's own. I mean this current hong situation, there is no emotion there. People are expressing themselves, I wouldn't call it drama.

If a member is simply "banned" the threads and posts remain. Look around, you will find MANY posts and threads of banned members remaining. If there are components of the thread that would drive drama higher or that would reward SPAM-like behavior, they will (and should) be deleted.

That's what confused me. Through trawling the many many posts from long before I even started lurking here I've seen lots of member who have been banned, and yet their posts remain. This really goes back to the perfection of what constitutes spam.

Many times members are given warnings. Some of you in this thread have received them ;) MANY temp-bans are awarded. They are based on the severity of the action and who the member is.

Makes perfect sense. Clear spammers don't deserve even a warning IMO.

Sometimes permanent bans are given as a first action. Unfortunately, y'all do not (and will not) know everything that happens behind the scenes.

If you disagree with an action, voice your opinion to a mod. However, if that mod disagrees with you, accept that they are pretty good at what they do. Without any of you knowing, we mods consult with each other about a great many things. You will not get to hear about them either.

I don't think there are too many people here who are shy to express their opinion. It also makes sense that a lot of information is exchanged behind the scenes. This goes back to the question of democracy, and I certainly don't want that in a forum setting. A little more clarity wouldn't hurt, although I really can't think of a situation where that's become an issue. At least not yet:yh:

As far as I am concerned any ban evasion is grounds for continuing the ban (or increasing it to a perma-ban). If a member is willing to break the rules the first time to get banned (temp or perm) and then knowingly breaks the rules again to try to continue or argue, that clearly shows that they do NOT think that the rules apply to them.

I guarantee you that there are perma-banned members in the forum today. If they come back, express remorse, and then keep their actions acceptable, they are left alone. If, however, they begin to act up again, the "multiple accounts" rule is standing by to spank them again. This is what happened with the most recent problematic ban.

That makes perfect sense, what confused me with this recent situation is that I thought this guy fell into that "If they come back, express remorse, and then keep their actions acceptable, they are left alone." category. I'm pretty sure I read most if not all of his threads, and I didn't see anything that was out of line. Doesn't mean it wasn't there... I just didn't see it, so it was rather puzzling.

It's in my nature to ask questions when things don't make sense... As you've noticed I try to do so for logical reasons and as politely as possible. That said if I angered you... it definitely wasn't my intent. I appreciate what you do for the forum, and the time it takes.

@T_J - I try to never get angry, but I also try to always get even:eg:
 
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daguin

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That makes perfect sense, what confused me with this recent situation is that I thought this guy fell into that "If they come back, express remorse, and then keep their actions acceptable, they are left alone." category. I'm pretty sure I read most if not all of his threads, and I didn't see anything that was out of line. Doesn't mean it wasn't there... I just didn't see it, so it was rather puzzling.

It is almost impossible to bring me to anger. I can be a bit pedantic and pedestrian. That often comes across as terse. It is only meant to attempt to cover all the needed ground without writing a novel.

5 of 8 threads were for sale threads or "reviews" that were in reality for sale threads. Most were also FS threads in the B/S/T board which is mostly reserved for individual members. It is not intended for commercial advertising. Most of his other posts were links to his FS threads. That is SPAMMING the forum. There are procedures for commercial advertisers to use the forum.

He was banned before in part because of him SPAMMING up the forum, using multiple accounts, and "talking in support of", his different accounts.

There was no confusion or doubt in his mind what he was doing.

He sneaked back in under a new name. His intention was to slip back in unnoticed. He did not "show remorse" until after he was caught. Even then, he immediately (within three minutes) posted a thread trying to drum up support for his cause and to try to "explain" how he didn't really have two accounts because he wasn't "using" one.

He came back using a proxy, which is also against the TOU. He said the thread was "the only way he could contact me" even though he had just sent me that PM 3-minutes before.

He has lied fairly consistently, ignored the forum rules, made a drama thread, SPAMMED the forum, evaded a ban TWICE, and used a proxy.
If it wasn't for the time it is going to take to get this through the other mods, I would be playing "Whack-A-Mole" right now.

All this because he promised to use an LPM. :undecided:

Peace,
dave

**EDIT**
-- I just spent more time explaining in a board "why" moderator action was and is required. I get caught up occasionally in this because of my sense of fairness. However, I am done explaining this. If there is not enough info out in the forum already, then the members do not "want" to see the problem or have a hidden agenda. I am done with this. I have work to do.
 
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chipdouglas

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wtf.... cocks hammer, pulls trigger.....i feel cold.


michael.
 

lasersbee

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It is almost impossible to bring me to anger. I can be a bit pedantic and pedestrian. That often comes across as terse. It is only meant to attempt to cover all the needed ground without writing a novel.

5 of 8 threads were for sale threads or "reviews" that were in reality for sale threads. Most were also FS threads in the B/S/T board which is mostly reserved for individual members. It is not intended for commercial advertising. Most of his other posts were links to his FS threads. That is SPAMMING the forum. There are procedures for commercial advertisers to use the forum.

He was banned before in part because of him SPAMMING up the forum, using multiple accounts, and "talking in support of", his different accounts.

There was no confusion or doubt in his mind what he was doing.

He sneaked back in under a new name. His intention was to slip back in unnoticed. He did not "show remorse" until after he was caught. Even then, he immediately (within three minutes) posted a thread trying to drum up support for his cause and to try to "explain" how he didn't really have two accounts because he wasn't "using" one.

He came back using a proxy, which is also against the TOU. He said the thread was "the only way he could contact me" even though he had just sent me that PM 3-minutes before.

He has lied fairly consistently, ignored the forum rules, made a drama thread, SPAMMED the forum, evaded a ban TWICE, and used a proxy.
If it wasn't for the time it is going to take to get this through the other mods, I would be playing "Whack-A-Mole" right now.

All this because he promised to use an LPM. :undecided:

Peace,
dave

After all that prodding for info... you finally spilled the beens
on this Member...:whistle::na:

It does put a clear understanding of the info used to ban him
to the rest of the forum...

That is not to say that the Mods need to divulge their reasoning
on every decision they take after the fact...

Ans as Hong opened a thread to muster community support...
it makes it easier to vote in ones favor or not (as in the case
of hong) if the true facts are known...:beer:


Jerry
 

InfinitusEquitas

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5 of 8 threads were for sale threads or "reviews" that were in reality for sale threads. Most were also FS threads in the B/S/T board which is mostly reserved for individual members. It is not intended for commercial advertising. Most of his other posts were links to his FS threads. That is SPAMMING the forum. There are procedures for commercial advertisers to use the forum.

I agree... and said as much before... companies do not deserve the same freedom as members. If he wants to come back and pay for advertising that's a different story.

He was banned before in part because of him SPAMMING up the forum, using multiple accounts, and "talking in support of", his different accounts.

There was no confusion or doubt in his mind what he was doing.

That's what I was wondering about. I know in the past (not for this forum, last one was for battle.net back in 2000 or so.) I've created multiple user names, but only because I was too lazy to write down the passwords.

If he used more than one account to post at the same time... there is no question about the ban at all, it is very well deserved.

He sneaked back in under a new name. His intention was to slip back in unnoticed. He did not "show remorse" until after he was caught. Even then, he immediately (within three minutes) posted a thread trying to drum up support for his cause and to try to "explain" how he didn't really have two accounts because he wasn't "using" one.

Again if he was using both accounts at the same time... case closed.

He came back using a proxy, which is also against the TOU. He said the thread was "the only way he could contact me" even though he had just sent me that PM 3-minutes before.

I thought this was kind of fishy as well. I try not to assume that stupidity = duplicity though.

He actually PMed asking for help... my reply was more or less to contact the mods. I'm a sucker for an apology. Feel a bit "terse" with him now though.

He has lied fairly consistently, ignored the forum rules, made a drama thread, SPAMMED the forum, evaded a ban TWICE, and used a proxy.
If it wasn't for the time it is going to take to get this through the other mods, I would be playing "Whack-A-Mole" right now.

Ugh, this is why I wish the threads weren't deleted. Believe me I would have combed through them thoroughly before asking any questions.

All this because he promised to use an LPM. :undecided:

What's ironic is it shows just how much we actually want honest chinese sellers on here.

Just as afterthought... It's probably something you have easy access to as mods already, I'm not familiar with vbulletin though... but it wouldn't take much to show the IP of everyone on the forum, and log those IPs in the public user profile.

Well, for this case... it's beyond "case closed" for me.
 

Tech_Junkie

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I dont get why one member is causing all this debate. The membership doesnt regulate the forum anymore. So ban his ass, and be done with it. WTF.
 

HIMNL9

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Just my usual devil's advocacy (it's a mission, sorry :p :D) .....

I personally think that, if there's the way for add some words to the "banned" indication under the name of the user, this can reduce at least a bit the "drama" and "support threads" proliferation, without the need for the mods to loose half day explaining all to anyone (i know, it will not eliminate it, but can still help).

I mean, when an user is banned, under his name you see just "banned" ..... depending from the user, this can give doubts, and, being myself a co-mod (in another place, not here :p), i agree with Dave that, sometimes, is not opportune to post publicly all the involved informations ..... but, if the forum gives the possibility, why not add a pure reason, with the status ?

Like, as example, "banned for continuous spamming" ..... "banned for multiple scam" ..... "banned for multiple accounts" ..... or similars.

I'm thinking this, cause the most part of the times, i've seen that "drama" threads are started simply from peoples that ask "hey, why you have banned him ?", or similar ..... giving a minimum of informations like the previous ones, surely don't eliminate completely the "drama threads", but can help taking half of them down ..... or not ? ;)
 

millirad

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^Sounds good if it's easy to implement for Avery and easy to use by the mods. I'm thinking maybe shortened to Banned/Scam, Banned/Spam and Banned/Multi. If it doesn't fall into one of these three categories, then maybe Banned/Fight, Banned/Temp. Perma-bans would probably fall into the first 4 categories.
 

Krogith

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That would probably give Daguin his 30 min + back. thats a Good Idea
 

InfinitusEquitas

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^^^For most situations. I mean I wouldn't have said a word or asked a single question if I knew that he

1. Had his own company - however small or large.
2. Used multiple accounts at the same time, using one to support the others.

1. Would be clear reason for warning.
2. Would be clear reason for a permaban.
 
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