Arrests?

[aryntha]

Heh, what did the police 'warn' you not to do anymore? Not shine a laser in your yard? Just interested to hear what they threatened you with; I guess if they were quoting CDRH at you, it might go somewhere, but it sounds to me like they might have just been saying "That's unusual and we're not sure what to do about it, so don't do it again."

"Causing a public nuisance?" I don't know. I got hassled once by the local police because my ham radio was interfering with a neighbor's cheap chinese cordless phone. FCC Part 15 says that this wouldn't really be my problem (though the chinese crap phone likely wasn't Part 15 compliant) but the police still gave me some guff like "Well we're not sure what law it is but you can't interfere with phone calls." Funny, the phone had secondary privileges to my primary on the band it operated on anyhow.

Point is that yeah, cops will give you a hard time if you do enough to make them come out and talk to you. Illegal or not. My house backs up to several hundreds of acres out of several hundreds of thousands of acres an uninhabited national forest, and I've done my beam shots against that mountain. (Mountains are generally good beam dumps...) No trouble yet, but I've been reconsidering it, because our neighbors have been getting increasingly 'in my business' about stuff they really have no right to. (i.e., 'why are you outside at night sitting around a (contained) fire and talking, that's not normal, dont do that'.)

Personally, my neighbors could have an 40-person naked slam-dance and I'd just shrug, but some people just _have_ to get in other people's business.

 

[steve001]

That sums it up nicely, yes. Although I myself won't go so far as to suggest that hobbyists shouldn't occasionally take a "chance" by shining their lasers into the night sky from time to time, all legal interpretation aside. It's fun to do. I do it, most of us do it. Just keep the beams away from people, vehicles and aircraft.

A smart thing to do

[/b]Steve001, I can't point out a specific piece of legalese in the CDRH regs that state specifically that "no laser hobbyist can shine their high-powered lasers into the sky", but[/b] I've already pointed out how other parts of the regs can easily be interpreted to include hobbyists shining their lasers around in public places in the "laser display" category, thus requiring a variance, and I've also pointed out how a hobbyists laser beam cutting through the sky can easily be covered by the FAAs requirements regarding outdoor laser activity. Much of it is all about interpretation. You can put a certain spin on it if you want to.. but I suspect that the spin the CDRH would put on it, if it came to it, would be a bit different than yours. In a situation of you being suspected of violating the regs, however rare that might be, their interpretation is what counts unless you want to hire a lawyer and battle them out..

Since you haven't found a specific piece of wordage, copy and paste here text that you feel could be interpreted to include the hobbyist.

[/b]I do not necessarily think that the laws are understood well by anybody here in the hobbyist community or anybody at all for that matter except the CDRH, at least I haven't met anyone who has them 100% down pat. I rely on what I'm told by CDRH personnel as being fact. [/b]For me it's that simple. As I said previously, anything else is irrelevant from my perspective, least of all some forum banter. This makes 3 times I've said it: CALL your local field office. They will break their "interpretation" of the regs down to you, at least in my experience they will. Then if they say something similar to what I said, you can spend the next 30 minutes telling them how they've got it wrong.

As I recall you own or operate or are involved in a professional laser show. When you spoke with the representative how did you phrase your question ? Did you mention you were a professional at the time you spoke? Here's where I think you get confused.

An outdoor laser light show/demonstration is considered to be a laser product by the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) and, if the irradiance is greater than 5 miliwatts per square centimeter, the demonstration requires a variance to Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 1040.11c. The variance (issued by the CDRH) requires the laser user to notify the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) of the proposed laser operation and resolve any objections that the FAA may have."

You are seems to me to be conflating a laser system designed for a commercial purpose with a handheld laser designed for personal entertainment as it has been recently redefined. Next quote.

13)Demonstration laser product means any laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition. The term "demonstration laser product" does not apply to laser products which are not manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for such purposes, even though they may be used for those purposes or are intended to demonstrate other applications. [handheld lasers for example] CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
All manufacturers of demonstration laser products, which includes all laser light shows and laser projection systems used in light shows, must comply with the requirements specified in Title 21 Procedures for Renewal and Amendment of Certain Laser Light Show Variances (Laser Notice 55)

Taking this all together the point I'm stressing here is that the CDRH has little regulatory role over the use of personal handheld laser devices. They make it clear that there are certain situations where it would be illegal to point a high powered laser into the sky. When examining this question you have to separate what you know is true professionally from personal laser use.
Here's something I suspect you don't know. This is an excerpt from a conversation with a CDRH representative

Answer: No. The CDRH deals with commercial products only: either laser systems that are assembled to be sold to the public, or laser
shows that are created (designed) to be "sold" as a "product" to an
audience. Laser shows that are not part of a commercial endeavor are
NOT subject to CDRH rules, no matter what power levels are involved.
This was AMAZING to hear as it runs counter to just about everything
I've read here and elsewhere, so I questioned Jerry at length about
it. Phone call to the CDRH - surprising results!

 

[ElektroFreak]

^You've got to go back and read what's been posted Steve001. I'm not your bitch, you can do your own work to support your argument. I've already mentioned what parts of the regs support what the CDRH told me. I don't care about anything else. When I want guaranteed factual info (or as close to it as I can get), I go to the source.

You've quoted another phone call to the CDRH that has some differing statements than what I was told, but that's all just quotes on a computer screen. Even that's not the same as talking to them directly. That's been part of my point this entire time. You're not going to sell me on your position because you're not the CDRH. You may be 100% correct, but I'm not buying until I'm told it directly by the CDRH.

 

[steve001]

^You've got to go back and read what's been posted Steve001. I'm not your bitch, you can do your own work to support your argument. I've already mentioned what parts of the regs support what the CDRH told me. I don't care about anything else. When I want guaranteed factual info (or as close to it as I can get), I go to the source.

You've quoted another phone call to the CDRH that has some differing statements than what I was told, but that's all just quotes on a computer screen. Even that's not the same as talking to them directly. That's been part of my point this entire time. You're not going to sell me on your position because you're not the CDRH. You may be 100% correct, but I'm not buying until I'm told it directly by the CDRH.

All of my documentation is in print. You are asking all of us to except your word that your position is strong because you've talked to some CDRH rep who may not have been as clear on the matter as you think. It's even possible you are misremembering what was said. In order to bolster your position you should have shown supporting documentation from any federal source that supports your position that it is illegal to shine a personal handheld laser into the sky. It seems to me when you spoke with the CDRH rep you didn't phrase the question precisely. I suspect that the answer you got was answered as it pertains to laser shows.
I have yet to date been unable to locate, hear of or read from any government source it is illegal to shine my personal laser into the sky.
I have laid out a logical and reasonable argument culled from the documents freely available for everyone to read.

 

[Garoq]

I have worked with the federal agencies that regulate my business for many years. My recommendation is to not take the word of any particular employee of a government agency as absolute fact. The often have different interpretations of the same rule and contradict one another. Do your own research, and consult an attorney if necessary.

 

[Trevor]

An outdoor laser light show/demonstration is considered to be a laser product by the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) and, if the irradiance is greater than 5 miliwatts per square centimeter, the demonstration requires a variance to Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 1040.11c. The variance (issued by the CDRH) requires the laser user to notify the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) of the proposed laser operation and resolve any objections that the FAA may have."

Okay, so you need a variance to create a lasershow in navigable airspace with an irradiance of >5mW/cm^2. Cool.

So... what is it when you're just pointing your laser in the sky? A lasershow? A laserfuckingaround?

It's a personal lasershow.

13)Demonstration laser product means any laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition. The term "demonstration laser product" does not apply to laser products which are not manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for such purposes, even though they may be used for those purposes or are intended to demonstrate other applications. CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
All manufacturers of demonstration laser products, which includes all laser light shows and laser projection systems used in light shows, must comply with the requirements specified in Title 21 Procedures for Renewal and Amendment of Certain Laser Light Show Variances (Laser Notice 55)

So what are you doing with your handheld laser when you point it in the sky? Is it entertainment? Is it a demonstration? Well, both.

It's not legal, but you probably won't get in trouble. Deal with it.

By your logic I should be able to shine one of our 120W 532nm surgical laser into the sky because it wasn't designed for it. Right...

-Trevor

 

[ElektroFreak]

All of my documentation is in print. You are asking all of us to except your word that your position is strong because you've talked to some CDRH rep who may not have been as clear on the matter as you think. It's even possible you are misremembering what was said. In order to bolster your position you should have shown supporting documentation from any federal source that supports your position that it is illegal to shine a personal handheld laser into the sky. It seems to me when you spoke with the CDRH rep you didn't phrase the question precisely. I suspect that the answer you got was answered as it pertains to laser shows.
I have yet to date been unable to locate, hear of or read from any government source it is illegal to shine my personal laser into the sky.
I have laid out a logical and reasonable argument culled from the documents freely available for everyone to read.

Thanks for telling me what I "should have done".

I could give a crap if a single person here believes a word I say ever. My point throughout this discourse (and obviously this is way over your head) has been that anyone interested in the FACTS regarding CDRH regs should CONTACT THEIR FIELD OFFICE instead of listening to me OR you. We can each share our experiences, but for the real dirt ask the source. This is especially true since there is a lot of room for interpretation in the regs, such as the fact that once a person has bought a handheld laser from ANY source (no matter if it's CNI or something built by a hobbyist here) it becomes a commercial product. And that's just one aspect of the regs.

Compared to direct contact with a representative of the CDRH, what you or I or anyone else has to say about it is entirely irrelevant. That's why it's not worth my effort to pick over the regs and post excerpts to argue about here. Doing so is completely pointless when the facts are easily obtained simply by contacting the CDRH directly with any questions.

In my experience they are always willing to help people understand.

 

[Trevor]

I'll go downstairs and talk to surgery and see if I can whistle up a little CDRH information.

-Trevor

 

[steve001]

Thanks for telling me what I "should have done".

I could give a crap if a single person here believes a word I say ever. My point throughout this discourse (and obviously this is way over your head) has been that anyone interested in the FACTS regarding CDRH regs should CONTACT THEIR FIELD OFFICE instead of listening to me OR you. We can each share our experiences, but for the real dirt ask the source. This is especially true since there is a lot of room for interpretation in the regs, such as the fact that once a person has bought a handheld laser from ANY source (no matter if it's CNI or something built by a hobbyist here) it becomes a commercial product. And that's just one aspect of the regs.

Compared to direct contact with a representative of the CDRH, what you or I or anyone else has to say about it is entirely irrelevant. That's why it's not worth my effort to pick over the regs and post excerpts to argue about here. Doing so is completely pointless when the facts are easily obtained simply by contacting the CDRH directly with any questions.

In my experience they are always willing to help people understand.

The legality of importation of handheld lasers isn't the issue. A home built laser isn't a commercial laser. Since you say that your credibitly now becomes highly suspect as to whether you understood the CDRH rep correctly.
I hope you understand this. It's from Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

 

[Trevor]

Here's two scenarios for you, steve001:

----------

You have a laser projector. You've just finished building it and are really excited about it. You immediately fire it up in your backyard (alone), with a beamshow shooting into the night sky. You decide to take it out in your backyard every so often to enjoy the beams.

----------

You have a laser projector. You've just finished building it and are really excited about it. You send out an invitation over craigslist and charge $15 admission to your lasershow. You put on a beamshow, with beams shooting up into the night sky. You pull in enough money to pay for the projector.

----------

Tell me, which of these scenarios violates the CDRH rules?

-Trevor

 

[ElektroFreak]

The legality of importation of handheld lasers isn't the issue. A home built laser isn't a commercial laser. Since you say that your credibitly now becomes highly suspect as to whether you understood the CDRH rep correctly.
I hope you understand this. It's from Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Wow. Shakespeare quote. Good for you buddy!

I'm just fine with my credibility Steve001, and fortunately for me what you think of it matters so little that it's not even a blip on my radar, much the same as anything else you think about pretty much anything.. I've been doing this stuff awhile now, and I speak and comprehend English just as well as the CDRH rep I spoke with regarding handhelds.

Here. I'll even concede to you if it'll make you feel any better, since that's clearly what you're after. This is just a kid's "I'm smarter than everybody" game. You keep arguing after I've said all I have to say, you refuse to read what's been posted, and you keep blatantly avoiding my very simple request that you and ANYONE with concerns about laser legality CALL YOUR FIELD OFFICE (how hard is that, really?). I've even said that I cannot produce a specific piece of legalese in the CDRH regs that bans hobbyists from shining their lasers into the air. That was what you were looking for right? The fact that other parts of the regs can conceivably cover those activities can be ignored by you if you want to.. whatever it takes to make you feel like you've won the argument right? Here I'll even quote myself:

You may be 100% correct, but I'm not buying until I'm told it directly by the CDRH.

NOTICE TO ALL LPF MEMBERS:

If you EVER have questions or concerns about the CDRH regulations, INSTEAD OF CONTACTING THE CDRH (which is super easy, all you have to do is look up the phone number), just ask Steve001. The CDRH and everyone else have ALL got it wrong with our various interpretations. The only person in the WORLD who knows the FACTS about laser legality is some guy on a forum somewhere: Steve001. Even the CDRH itself bows to HIS superior knowledge of THEIR rules.

Is that better Steve001?? You all good now?


@LPF: Don't feed the trollz.. I'll handle that.

 

[chipdouglas]

..just my .02 folks.

I recently had 2 cops banging on my front door late one evening after they'd witnessed my shining a few bright blue lasers into the sky. (I live across the street from the village/police station in my area)

Long story short, they took my laser away & went to file a report which could've included my prosecution. 25 mins later following their visit, the primary officer gave me my laser back and left me with this verbal statement:

'You're not going to have your laser confiscated nor are you going to be arrested for this because frankly there's no law against what you were doing. We discussed that it is illegal to point a laser at any transportation, people or in an destructive and/or distracting manner to the public, luckily in your case this is not the problem...we just saw your bright lasers shooting into the sky. HOWEVER, if I ever see you shining a laser near me again (I was taking low light pics & distracted him while gunning speeders from a nearby parking lot) - you're going to jail!"

Since my incident and that explanation, I tried 'registering' myself with the village I live in because I have over a dozen high powered, dangerous lasers & I'm located across the street from the police department.. I met with a sergeant & gave him my story. I was told I was doing nothing wrong without crossing the lines of 'use' and destructive/distracting/harassing 'misuse' which would lead to my arrest, fine, ect.

They have my name and my information regarding the incident and my hobby. I was told by this sergeant who's name I have on file after several questions regarding my wellbeing for law abiding use - that if I were ever harassed by any of his officers for non-misuse of my lasers (my word against theirs pertaining to whatever happens) - to contact him regarding the matter.

To date, I've used my lasers very cautiously outdoors & without public distraction as per the police/public villages' perspective - and have had no problems from the police since then.

My point..? Be very careful what you're dealing with no matter how safe you are, or more importantly where you are. In my case, I was lucky - but I'm not gambling on it saving me everytime :beer:

Most cops don't know about CDRH regs, and the rest don't care about that kind of stuff. The exceptions are particlularly anal-retentive cops (who can become a problem for anyone) and police responding to laser pointer vs. aircraft events.

Laser display and commerce legislation is enforced by local CDRH/FDA field office personnel, but not all cities have them. CDRH regulation violations are typically a civil matter, so no arrests or jail time etc.. but there can be fines.

No offense to any cops that might be members here but... Cops don't know the law. Their job is to bring them in and let the judge sort it out. So i say you are lucky your cop cared enough to check up on it.

And laws are written by lawyers for lawyers. So it is no wonder we cant decipher them LoL...

My brother is a lawyer here in california. When he is not busy i will have him read the faa and cdrh stuff and try to get him to post here in lay terms what the laser laws are.

michael.

 

[goosesensor]

No offense to any cops that might be members here but... Cops don't know the law. Their job is to bring them in and let the judge sort it out. So i say you are lucky your cop cared enough to check up on it.

And laws are written by lawyers for lawyers. So it is no wonder we cant decipher them LoL...

My brother is a lawyer here in california. When he is not busy i will have him read the faa and cdrh stuff and try to get him to post here in lay terms what the laser laws are.

michael.

A priest and your brother walk into a bar... j/k :crackup:

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

My brother is a lawyer here in california. When he is not busy i will have him read the faa and cdrh stuff and try to get him to post here in lay terms what the laser laws are.

Would be nice, but a lost cause. All depends on interpretation and selective enforcement.

Until there is a clear law upon which regular cops can act, we're ok.

For now it still seems like the most local PD can do is write out a citation disturbing the peace.. or something along those lines.

Let's just just hope the law doesn't become too clear like it did in Australia:undecided:

 

[ElektroFreak]

Would be nice, but a lost cause. All depends on interpretation and selective enforcement.

Until there is a clear law upon which regular cops can act, we're ok.

Brilliantly put. I love simplicity.. I wish I had such a gift for accuracy with so few words. Interpretation is key, and it WILL vary from person to person as long as the law is not explicit about every detail.

Waiting for Steve001 to pop in here and explain to us mere mortals how the idea that laws are subject to interpretation is all wrong.. maybe a few more Shakespeare quotes would help.

 

[chipdouglas]

Would be nice, but a lost cause. All depends on interpretation and selective enforcement.

Until there is a clear law upon which regular cops can act, we're ok.

For now it still seems like the most local PD can do is write out a citation disturbing the peace.. or something along those lines.

Let's just just hope the law doesn't become too clear like it did in Australia:undecided:

couldn't be further from the truth. it doesnt mean shit if a cop takes your laser away or brings you to jail. its the laws that set it straight. if you have a decent lawyer and the laws are still murky, you will be free and get your laser back. That is how the law works. And that is exactly what a lawyer is for. cops don't usually care if you did something wrong or not. :Selective Enforcement"... who cares... in california it's technically illegal to break your own possesions in a fit of rage.

It seems most people only seem to care what the cops will do. If you really didn't do anything wrong and a cop still takes it from you or cites you, you will get off. The police try to enforce the laws as best as possible but they really don't know the law.