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Moebius

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Before dealing with cops....read this.
 

steve001

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Wow. Shakespeare quote. Good for you buddy!

I'm just fine with my credibility Steve001, and fortunately for me what you think of it matters so little that it's not even a blip on my radar, much the same as anything else you think about pretty much anything.. I've been doing this stuff awhile now, and I speak and comprehend English just as well as the CDRH rep I spoke with regarding handhelds.

Here. I'll even concede to you if it'll make you feel any better, since that's clearly what you're after. This is just a kid's "I'm smarter than everybody" game. You keep arguing after I've said all I have to say, you refuse to read what's been posted, and you keep blatantly avoiding my very simple request that you and ANYONE with concerns about laser legality CALL YOUR FIELD OFFICE (how hard is that, really?). I've even said that I cannot produce a specific piece of legalese in the CDRH regs that bans hobbyists from shining their lasers into the air. That was what you were looking for right? The fact that other parts of the regs can conceivably cover those activities can be ignored by you if you want to.. whatever it takes to make you feel like you've won the argument right? Here I'll even quote myself:




NOTICE TO ALL LPF MEMBERS:

If you EVER have questions or concerns about the CDRH regulations, INSTEAD OF CONTACTING THE CDRH (which is super easy, all you have to do is look up the phone number), just ask Steve001. The CDRH and everyone else have ALL got it wrong with our various interpretations. The only person in the WORLD who knows the FACTS about laser legality is some guy on a forum somewhere: Steve001. Even the CDRH itself bows to HIS superior knowledge of THEIR rules.


Is that better Steve001?? You all good now?


@LPF: Don't feed the trollz.. I'll handle that.
Well, after you called me a moron [ and now a troll] didn't I warn you I like a good smack down.

Look Elecktrofreak, I've asked you to do one simple thing something I've not been able to do and that is find the federal law that says I Can't shine my personal handheld laser into the sky. A law that is unrelated to laser shows or any other commercial venture as defined by the CDRH and FDA. You haven't done that. Instead you become increasingly irate at my questioning your authority. Frankly I don't know why you are getting so pissed off. You should be working with me to clear up what is a great and continuing misunderstanding to alleviate the fears of people that care to shine a personal laser into the sky.
 
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Trevor

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Steve001, I've posed to you several questions that you've ignored... I'm curious to see your answer.

-Trevor
 
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*sigh* Steve001, It's got nothing to do with challenging anyone's authority. I've already answered your question as well as I or possibly anyone here can. You just don't read, or you ignore that which goes against what you are saying. You keep asking the same question over and over. READ. don't talk. Just READ.

@Trevor: Among other things that whole "selective ignoring" thing is why any debate between me and Steve001 ended awhile ago.. If he wants to go on and on, that's just fine by me.
 
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steve001

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Here's two scenarios for you, steve001:

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You have a laser projector. You've just finished building it and are really excited about it. You immediately fire it up in your backyard (alone), with a beamshow shooting into the night sky. You decide to take it out in your backyard every so often to enjoy the beams.

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You have a laser projector. You've just finished building it and are really excited about it. You send out an invitation over craigslist and charge $15 admission to your lasershow. You put on a beamshow, with beams shooting up into the night sky. You pull in enough money to pay for the projector.

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Tell me, which of these scenarios violates the CDRH rules?

-Trevor
The second one.
 
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^Incorrect according to the CDRH rep I spoke with. I did just say that the debate between us is over. From now on I'm just going to post that you're incorrect according to what I was told by the CDRH. For more (or possibly different) information, contact them directly via the contact info at the bottom right of this page. I'll copy/paste this exact text after any post I see that conflicts with what they told me.
 
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Trevor

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The first scenario is a laser system designed for entertainment that creates a navigational hazard. The second scenario is a laser designed for entertainment that creates a navigational hazard.

So you only have to get permission to create a navigational hazard if you're making money off of the navigational hazard?


-Trevor
 

steve001

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Okay, so you need a variance to create a lasershow in navigable airspace with an irradiance of >5mW/cm^2. Cool.

So... what is it when you're just pointing your laser in the sky? A lasershow? A laserfuckingaround?

It's a personal lasershow.



So what are you doing with your handheld laser when you point it in the sky? Is it entertainment? Is it a demonstration? Well, both.

It's not legal, but you probably won't get in trouble. Deal with it.

By your logic I should be able to shine one of our 120W 532nm surgical laser into the sky because it wasn't designed for it. Right...


-Trevor
Trevor notice how all these documents tie back to one central theme; of use of lasers in commerce. There's nearly nothing about the use of handheld personal lasers. For all to read current regulations for complete lasers CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21. Read the related links too start here
Procedures for Renewal and Amendment of Certain Laser Light Show Variances (Laser Notice 55) Procedures for Renewal and Amendment of Certain Laser Light Show Variances (Laser Notice 55). In all of the documents not once have I seen stated a reference to or implication thereof regarding the use of personal handheld lasers except * here[ Proper uses for for laser pointers Tips for Consumers]. Everything I've read points directly to commercial uses of laser systems.

CDRH believes that the variance process is a necessary and appropriate means to ensure public health and safety when high power laser beams are used in entertainment and display. Device Advice: Comprehensive Regulatory Assistance /GuidanceDocuments/ucm094352.htm
Notice the CDRH is specifically meaning laser light shows and lasers used in anyother commercial way.

* Proper uses for for laser pointers Tips for Consumers

* Never aim or shine a laser at anyone, including animals.
* Look for the following information on the label to make certain that a laser (or a toy that includes a laser) is safe:
o a statement that it complies with Chapter 21 CFR (the Code of Federal Regulations)
o the manufacturer’s or distributor’s name and the date of manufacture
o a warning to avoid exposure to laser radiation
o a class designation up to Class IIIa
* Be aware that the manufacturer of a Class IIIb or IV laser product must obtain permission (also called a “variance”) from FDA before the laser is sold to the public if the laser product:
o is designed, intended, or promoted for surveying, leveling, or alignment (which includes pointing)
o is a demonstration laser product (which includes laser projectors) that is designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition

Surveying, leveling, or alignment laser products and demonstration laser products mentioned directly above that are powered above 5 mW with no label that indicates they were manufactured under a variance present a serious safety hazard and are not legal for sale! Illuminating the Hazards of Powerful Laser Products
 

Trevor

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All of those documents are geared toward health and public safety. So... does health and public safety only matter when money is being made?

How ridiculous would it be if the FAA said this?

You only need to notify us that you are firing an automatic weapon into navigable airspace if people are paying to watch you do it.
They're concerned with public safety - which is affected whether or not money is being made off of the display.

It seems that hobbyists are a small enough segment of the class IV laser beams in the sky that the documents haven't been updated to include them.

-Trevor
 
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^There you go.. missed that last line. Even though there might not be any specific mention of hobbyists, I can assure you that the CDRH still maintains jurisdiction over all public laser-related activities and the FAA maintains jurisdiction over ALL navigational hazards, regardless of whether people are being paid in the process of producing those hazards.

I believe that maybe some of the confusion stems from the difference between sales and distribution of laser devices (which are only regulated if they are to be entered into commerce, thus rendering most DIY builds exempt unless they are sold to anyone at any time for any amount of money) and the PUBLIC USAGE of laser devices, particularly high-powered laser beams in navigable airspace, which is regulated regardless of monetary concerns for obvious reasons. A potential navigational hazard is a potential navigational hazard. Money doesn't figure into that equation at all.

Also, it's really amazing to me that someone from the US would be seemingly unable to grasp that not all legislation needs to be worded specifically to a certain action or certain conditions to apply to those situations anyway. All the lawyers that write the legislation need is language that is close enough and it can be made to stick. If the CDRH says their "interpretation" includes public laser displays by handheld wielding hobbyists, the only way said hobbyists can fight that is to hire a lawyer.. or Steve001. He seems more than willing to argue with them, but he seems like he'd argue with God over the laws of physics so I'm not sure he'd be the best choice.
 
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JBTexas

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(1) I am going to start smoking again.
(2) I am going to attack Japan with very large lizards wearing parachutes.
 

InfinitusEquitas

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(1) I am going to start smoking again.
(2) I am going to attack Japan with very large lizards wearing parachutes.
1. Don't even F*CKING think about it:yabbmad:

2. What Mothra is not good enough for you:na:

3. This debate passed the pointless stage yesterday morning, possibly even tuesday. I called local PD just for sh*ts and giggles... They told me flat out, as far as they are concerned if you're not aiming at planes or people they don't care. That's good enough for me.
 

Trevor

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Well, I talked to the head of surgery, who directed me to the rep that works with the laserscope company (Greenlight HPS), who directed me to the proper person with the CDRH.

I should hear back soon. :)

-Trevor
 




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