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piferal

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@lazeristasUVISIR ^^^ You ask too much, what you see is what you get.

I said, this it to get a slight idea (There is not something extremely scientific and calibrated).
 
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steve001

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Yeah.. so this is why I don't post here anymore. I think that trend will continue.

You've got loud morons like this guy here telling a person who does professional laser shows for a living (which require our company to deal directly with the CDRH) that they have no clue about the legality of lasers, including handhelds. I've asked my local office about this very thing.. I'm only repeating what they told me. But sure, Steve001 knows better then the CDRH itself does right?

I'll tell y'all what. You just let Steve001 here keep posting completely false legal info on your forum like it's fact, and I'll continue on my merry way.. It's no longer my job to help better LPF, especially when there are idiots like this guy being allowed to post this kind of crap. Are there ANY laser-related forums that aren't complete jokes anymore?

Laters.
I love a good smack down, let's go.
Do one thing. Find the federal law that states. A laser hobbyist cannot allow a laser beam to leave their property. If you can do that I will concede I am wrong. If you don't find a law then you must state you were the moron. Is that fair enough ?

Years ago I went through this very same thing with another fellow just like you that ran a laser show. I did combed the internet. I went to professional laser show forums like Photolexicon and some others i can't remeber and posted this question. I even emailed Greg Makov at ILDA - I think it was- guess what nobody new of a law that said you can't.



Here's part of a conversation I had a few years ago. It concerned whether or not it was illegl to shine a class 3b laser into the sky which at that time were the highest output handheld lasers available.
Here's a conversation I had with *Greg Makov [

> Dear Mr. Makov,
> I'm writing too inquire how this article you wrote applies to the
> hobbyist ? All of the articles I've read at the various government
> non-government sites appear to consider only commercial uses or
> situations. Specifically do you know of a federal law(s) that states it
> is unlawful to shine a laser >5mw into the sky ? I've searched for a
> definitive answer and posted this question and the answer I received
> was 'never heard of one'. If you know the answer or can point me in
> the right direction I'd certainly appreciate it.
>
> Sincerely.
>
> Steve


Sorry for the late reply, today is my first day back in the office in
about 1-1/2 weeks.

Concerning your question, this was a question that I posed to FAA
officials many years ago when I was involved with the G-10 committee and
helped re-write the FAA 7400.2 document. The general answer is that it
is illegal to "interfere with a flight crew" and that the local tower
could call the local police to arrest anyone who did so interfere. More
recently, there was federal legislation that made it directly a criminal
activity to "shine" a laser device at an aircraft. Note that this does
not have any power limit or irradiance value associated with it. In
other words, with this new law, it does not matter what you are
"shining" at the flight crew, it matters that you are interfering with
their normal operation.

The 5 mW limit you cite is based on the CDRH limit for manufacturers of
laser pointers. There is a lot of misinformation about this. It is
perfectly legal to sell or to buy a laser that emits more than 5
milliwatts, just don't call it a laser pointer. Moreover, how you use
it is not regulated, unless you interfere or injure someone else with
what you are doing. In other words, if you direct a laser beam into the
sky, and no one notices it, there is no problem. If the beam
illuminates a plane, you might be in for a bit of trouble.

If you need specific statutes or regulations, I recommend the CDRH
website to you:

<http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/comp/rad_consumer.html>

And the FAA Advisory Circular site:


<http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...es/advisory_ci rculars/>

This is the older version of what Garog quoted from th CDRH site
Hand-held lasers promoted for entertainment purposes or amusement also meet the second definition, that of “demonstration laser products” as defined by 21 CFR 1040.10(b)(13):

“Demonstration laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition.”

If a laser product is promoted for pointing purposes, either of these definitions can apply.
Now here's the updated version. Notice the difference.
21CFR Sec. 1040.10 Laser products.

"(13)Demonstration laser product means any laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition.

The term "demonstration laser product" does not apply to laser products which are not manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for such purposes, even though they may be used for those purposes or are intended to demonstrate other applications."
Do you see the difference. The first paragraph means lasers designed for laser shows more or less. The second paragraph excludes laser pointers and handheld lasers from being categorized by the first paragraph. You did catch the specified term demonstration laser product. l

Let's add some fuel to the fire. Here's an opinion site on this matter. You and most everyone will recognized the name of the author FDA authority over laser pointers and handheld lasers -- Laser Pointer Safety

Remember to find that federal law that says an individual with their personal laser can't allow the beam off their property.
 

Trevor

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Imposing a navigational hazard is interfering with the crew.

-Trevor
 
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I love a good smack down, let's go.
Do one thing. Find the federal law that states. A laser hobbyist cannot allow a laser beam to leave their property. If you can do that I will concede I am wrong. If you don't find a law then you must state you were the moron. Is that fair enough ?

Years ago I went through this very same thing with another fellow just like you that ran a laser show. I did combed the internet. I went to professional laser show forums like Photolexicon and some others i can't remeber and posted this question. I even emailed Greg Makov at ILDA - I think it was- guess what nobody new of a law that said you can't.



Here's part of a conversation I had a few years ago. It concerned whether or not it was illegl to shine a class 3b laser into the sky which at that time were the highest output handheld lasers available.
Here's a conversation I had with *Greg Makov [

> Dear Mr. Makov,
> I'm writing too inquire how this article you wrote applies to the
> hobbyist ? All of the articles I've read at the various government
> non-government sites appear to consider only commercial uses or
> situations. Specifically do you know of a federal law(s) that states it
> is unlawful to shine a laser >5mw into the sky ? I've searched for a
> definitive answer and posted this question and the answer I received
> was 'never heard of one'. If you know the answer or can point me in
> the right direction I'd certainly appreciate it.
>
> Sincerely.
>
> Steve


Sorry for the late reply, today is my first day back in the office in
about 1-1/2 weeks.

Concerning your question, this was a question that I posed to FAA
officials many years ago when I was involved with the G-10 committee and
helped re-write the FAA 7400.2 document. The general answer is that it
is illegal to "interfere with a flight crew" and that the local tower
could call the local police to arrest anyone who did so interfere. More
recently, there was federal legislation that made it directly a criminal
activity to "shine" a laser device at an aircraft. Note that this does
not have any power limit or irradiance value associated with it. In
other words, with this new law, it does not matter what you are
"shining" at the flight crew, it matters that you are interfering with
their normal operation.

The 5 mW limit you cite is based on the CDRH limit for manufacturers of
laser pointers. There is a lot of misinformation about this. It is
perfectly legal to sell or to buy a laser that emits more than 5
milliwatts, just don't call it a laser pointer. Moreover, how you use
it is not regulated, unless you interfere or injure someone else with
what you are doing. In other words, if you direct a laser beam into the
sky, and no one notices it, there is no problem. If the beam
illuminates a plane, you might be in for a bit of trouble.

If you need specific statutes or regulations, I recommend the CDRH
website to you:

<http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/comp/rad_consumer.html>

And the FAA Advisory Circular site:


<http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...es/advisory_ci rculars/>

This is the older version of what Garog quoted from th CDRH site


Now here's the updated version. Notice the difference.


Do you see the difference. The first paragraph means lasers designed for laser shows more or less. The second paragraph excludes laser pointers and handheld lasers from being categorized by the first paragraph. You did catch the specified term demonstration laser product. l

Let's add some fuel to the fire. Here's an opinion site on this matter. You and most everyone will recognized the name of the author FDA authority over laser pointers and handheld lasers -- Laser Pointer Safety

Remember to find that federal law that says an individual with their personal laser can't allow the beam off their property.
Trevor's got it..

Greg Makhov ain't the CDRH, and yes I do know who he is. Basically all he said was "it's not a problem if no one sees it".. That logic can be applied to anything. I'm sticking with what I was told by the CDRH directly, which is no beams over 5mW into navigable airspace without FAA approval at the very least. I was also told that the rules that govern public display apply to anyone using a visible laser of any kind over 5mW in public (ie at any location other than your own property or other private property with the consent of the owner). Do your own research, contact your field office. They're the ones in charge of interpreting the law and enforcing it. Could their interpretation be incorrect? Sure.. but I'd say it's more likely that other people's interpretations are incorrect. As I said, it's not my job or responsibility to debunk the crap that makes it on to this forum any longer.. I already did that for a couple years, but it's beyond overwhelming now.
 
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JBTexas

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@ piferal re: chart, visual hazard distances

Yes; I am having some trouble believing the values in that chart. Maybe the veterans of the forum can shed some light on it? It seems to be exaggerated, but I am not that knowledgable or experienced.

5 mw : maximum eye hazard distance = 52 feet / 16 meters?
5 mw : "safe" distance = beyond 2.2 miles? (although it looks like what is considered "safe" = simply no distraction hazard).

I understand the INTENT of the chart, though.
 

Garoq

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Trevor's got it..

Greg Makhov ain't the CDRH, and yes I do know who he is. Basically all he said was "it's not a problem if no one sees it".. That logic can be applied to anything. I'm sticking with what I was told by the CDRH directly, which is no beams over 5mW into navigable airspace without FAA approval at the very least. I was also told that the rules that govern public display apply to anyone using a visible laser of any kind over 5mW in public (ie at any location other than your own property or other private property with the consent of the owner). Do your own research, contact your field office. They're the ones in charge of interpreting the law and enforcing it. Could their interpretation be incorrect? Sure.. but I'd say it's more likely that other people's interpretations are incorrect. As I said, it's not my job or responsibility to debunk the crap that makes it on to this forum any longer.. I already did that for a couple years, but it's beyond overwhelming now.
"In America, the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."- Thomas Paine
 
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"In America, the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."- Thomas Paine

I agree wholeheartedly! One thing I learned after a GREAT deal of frustration and headaches is that dealing with the gov't is never simple. They write these laws and they think that's all there is to it, but look at this discussion as an example.. there is far too much room for interpretation, even within the organizations that enforce the laws. Had these laws been written with more clarity and in a simpler format I doubt we'd be having this debate.
 
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piferal

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@ JBTexas

Yes, maybe it is likely that the results are exaggerated.

As you will understand I will not get my eye in front of a laser, even if 5mW at 16 meters to see if it is true or not (this chart is not mine).

Is why I said in my first post: (I can not say if it is completely correct, but gives a slight idea how dangerous it can be a laser)

And as I also told a "lazeristasUVISIR" (this it to get a slight idea, There is not something extremely scientific and calibrated)

For the third time: It's just to get a little idea, not to be something scientific reference.
 

steve001

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Trevor's got it..

Greg Makhov ain't the CDRH, and yes I do know who he is. Basically all he said was "it's not a problem if no one sees it".. That logic can be applied to anything. I'm sticking with what I was told by the CDRH directly, which is no beams over 5mW into navigable airspace without FAA approval at the very least. I was also told that the rules that govern public display apply to anyone using a visible laser of any kind over 5mW in public (ie at any location other than your own property or other private property with the consent of the owner). Do your own research, contact your field office. They're the ones in charge of interpreting the law and enforcing it. Could their interpretation be incorrect? Sure.. but I'd say it's more likely that other people's interpretations are incorrect. As I said, it's not my job or responsibility to debunk the crap that makes it on to this forum any longer.. I already did that for a couple years, but it's beyond overwhelming now.
I wasn't implying that Greg was the voice of authority. I used him meerly to demonstrate that if he or someone like him with his vast knowledge did not know of a particular law then there is not one.
You are also making the same mistake the other fellow did. You are conflating a commercial use of a laser with the hobby side for personal entertainment. Hasn't it also occurred to you that if there was such a law pertaining to the hobbyist that it would be well know on this forum. Just as well as the recent increased monetary penalty has become for interfering with aircraft ?

You avoided the question I asked you to find the answer to. That question is. Is there a law that says it is illegal for a hobbyist to point a laser beam into the sky or anywhere other than their property ? So far I don't know of any law that says I can't right now go outside and shine my laser up into the sky. Since you say it is go find that law. Remember the law has to pertain to shining a laser into the sky for personal entertainment unconnected to a commercial venue or enterprise. I'm not asking you to do this just to win the argument. I'm asking because we'd all like to know for certain once and for all.

Remember, we don't make laws to tell people what is lawful. We make laws to tell people what is unlawful.
 

jcranmer

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Funny, I just read 3 pages of posts on the question and I still don't feel like I know any more for sure then when I started reading. :D

Like anything, you can interpret laws / rules anyway you see fit. Of course so can the local police and government, so I still think the best advice in this thread is, "Just don't take the chance."

Of course I've done it and will continue to do it. Although I limit my beams to times when I have a clear view of the sky for several mins at dark and I live in a rural area well outside the normal flight area for commercial aircraft. I also tend to only point it straight up, so if by some change I do actually hit an aircraft, I'm hoping that it won't blind a pilot or crew member where as I'm sure it would at at a sharper angle.

I have also never pointed my really high power lasers (445, 405) up into the sky. That's normally reserved for my greens. :)
 
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Like anything, you can interpret laws / rules anyway you see fit. Of course so can the local police and government, so I still think the best advice in this thread is, "Just don't take the chance."
I think this statement sums it up pretty well.
 
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Like anything, you can interpret laws / rules anyway you see fit. Of course so can the local police and government, so I still think the best advice in this thread is, "Just don't take the chance."
That sums it up nicely, yes. Although I myself won't go so far as to suggest that hobbyists shouldn't occasionally take a "chance" by shining their lasers into the night sky from time to time, all legal interpretation aside. It's fun to do. I do it, most of us do it. Just keep the beams away from people, vehicles and aircraft.

Steve001, I can't point out a specific piece of legalese in the CDRH regs that state specifically that "no laser hobbyist can shine their high-powered lasers into the sky", but I've already pointed out how other parts of the regs can easily be interpreted to include hobbyists shining their lasers around in public places in the "laser display" category, thus requiring a variance, and I've also pointed out how a hobbyists laser beam cutting through the sky can easily be covered by the FAAs requirements regarding outdoor laser activity. Much of it is all about interpretation. You can put a certain spin on it if you want to.. but I suspect that the spin the CDRH would put on it, if it came to it, would be a bit different than yours. In a situation of you being suspected of violating the regs, however rare that might be, their interpretation is what counts unless you want to hire a lawyer and battle them out..

I do not necessarily think that the laws are understood well by anybody here in the hobbyist community or anybody at all for that matter except the CDRH, at least I haven't met anyone who has them 100% down pat. I rely on what I'm told by CDRH personnel as being fact. For me it's that simple. As I said previously, anything else is irrelevant from my perspective, least of all some forum banter. This makes 3 times I've said it: CALL your local field office. They will break their "interpretation" of the regs down to you, at least in my experience they will. Then if they say something similar to what I said, you can spend the next 30 minutes telling them how they've got it wrong.
 
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grenadier

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I'll admit that I will occasionally shine my laser into the empty sky, and I've received no hassle for it. I did however receive a warning from the police once, for shining a laser in my yard to adjust the focus. Fortunately since it was on my own property they couldn't do anything about the grouchy neighbor's green glow complaints.

I'll wear my googles when looking at the dot reflected off of a white surface, or when burning or engraving things. Other than that I feel the goggles are unneeded, as light goes in a straight line and it's not hard to avoid shiny objects. Lasers are probably one of the safest of all my wacky hobbies, seeing as they aren't going to kill you if you mess up...
 
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