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Wicked Lasers products not FDA approved

Jaxz

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I am very curious now, what kind of safety & regulations exactly does the FDA wants on Wicked Lasers. In my opinion, Wicked is already Over-emphasized with Safety. :| :| :|


The last I heard from JetLasers that they are delaying the production of PL-B is because they are trying to implement FDA safety features on to PL-A, which makes PL-B a FDA compliant version of PL-A. But I could guess that this delay is a wait to see how Wickedlasers react to make their Artic considered compliant correct me if I'm wrong.
 

ZapU

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The FDA didn't say they would come to take the laser away. The letter clearly mentions a fine of up to $1100 for importers. Claiming ignorance is invalid. And, if your package traveled through US Customs, which it did, they have a record of the shipment. I admit it's a long shot that such a thing would happen, but it's certainly possible and the letter to Wicked clearly outlines this as a possibility should Wicked fail to comply with their rather lengthy request for corrective measures.
So if I buy a car that claims to have all the Federal safety standards, but later on it turns out the car company lied to me, the Feds would fine me for buying the car? I don't think so.

Nor do I appreciate lectures from the marketing director of Laserglow. :scowl:

Justin Hosaki
Sales and Marketing Manager
 

aryntha

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So if I buy a car that claims to have all the Federal safety standards, but later on it turns out the car company lied to me, the Feds would fine me for buying the car? I don't think so.
If you bought it, no.

If you imported it, yes.

Importers across international boundaries have responsibilities to comply with laws that consumers in the US do not.

I almost got fined a few years ago for (almost) importing an electric generator into the country that did not have the proper emissions controls. A lot of the 'emergency power' guys up in the mountains here get in trouble for it all the time - importing diesel based systems that (are very efficient) but don't comply, from India and the like.

They have to buy parts and assemble them piece by piece, just like we do with laser components in some instances.

Yes, the importer is responsible. It's not like buying a car in-country. In the US it'd be illegal to offer for sale a car that doesn't comply with regulations. Since the US can't regulate what's offered for sale outside of the country, it's the importer's responsibility to make sure it complies.

Also, Laserglow does a lot of importing into the US; they're in Canada, and they do know what they're talking about. I agree it's not an 'unbiased source', but everything he has said so far is simply factual.

The FDA will probably not go after importers. Can they? Yes, they can. Absolutely.
 

Sauron

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I'd like to see what jurisdiction the FDA actually has. If they actually obtained a list of customers who bought the Arctic and tried to seize them, that would lead to an even trickier process. The reason for this is because the FDA won't know who still has it and who discarded it or gave it to someone else. Assuming everyone who owns an Arctic kept it, there still would be great difficulty in seizing them because search warrants would have to be given. If you understand the 4th Amendment, a warrant must be issued upon probable cause. Having your name on the shipping information might say you bought and imported the laser which would constitute probable cause for ownership, but that doesn't mean you still have it, and there is no probable cause to suggest you do. If an FDA agent or a law enforcement official on behalf of the FDA showed at your doorstep, you don't have to say or do anything for them if they don't have a search warrant. If they do have a warrant, they can only search in the place(s) listed and seize exactly what is listed. That is a lot of red tape for the FDA to endure if they're only seizing anywhere from 10k-20k Arctics.
 

aryntha

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... The reason for this is because the FDA won't know who still has it and who discarded it or gave it to someone else.
Doesn't matter. If you're the importer of record, you're the one liable - period. If you got rid of it or sold it, to the government, all that means is you've potentially committed another bad on top of your illegal import - selling a noncompliant laser within the US. If you discarded or destroyed it they'd probably need proof, or you'd still be on the hook.

Having your name on the shipping information might say you bought and imported the laser which would constitute probable cause for ownership, but that doesn't mean you still have it, and there is no probable cause to suggest you do.
The violation isn't owning it or still having it. It's importing it. And you don't need to still have it, to have imported it illegally. So having your name on a list is certainly probable cause for importing it --- it's evidence, in fact.


If an FDA agent or a law enforcement official on behalf of the FDA showed at your doorstep, you don't have to say or do anything for them if they don't have a search warrant. If they do have a warrant, they can only search in the place(s) listed and seize exactly what is listed.
Again, true if they were trying to find the laser itself and were going to get you on 'posession' -- but that's not the crime. The crime is the act of having it shipped in, and the laser doesn't have to be found, for that to be proven.

Again I'm not saying it should happen or will happen. Just clarifying what the issue actually is. If you got it given to you as a gift, if someone else ordered it for you -- they're likely on the hook and you're in the clear even if you have the laser.

This is getting a bit "what if", I agree, but these are the issues at stake. It depends on what the FDA's end goal is. Right now, they've got issue with Wicked, and are trying to stop them from selling to the US, by interrupting (siezing) their shipments.

If they wanted to make an "example to the public" to stop importation attempts, then they could go after a few importers (buyers) and string them up. I don't think we know if this is what the FDA wants to do.

If you look around on the forum here, there have been one or two situations where someone imported a Chinese laser, and the FDA demanded the laser back after the person received it. I *believe* this was a laser from Wicked. Pictures of the letter were posted and everything. After the person had the laser in his possession for a while, the FDA sent him a form laser giving him two options, which were essentially "provide us with compliance documents or send the laser back to us -- you get nothing except a hard lesson." He handed over the laser.

You also may want to talk to Mohrenberg who had first person dealings with the FDA. And I know there were others. It has happened.
 
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The FDA DOES have issue with most of Wicked's products.. HOWEVER I've still seen many references in the media stating that the Arctic (specifically, not all Wicked lasers) is legal to import so whatever their sources are still believe that they are all good. And finding someone in the FDA itself that actually knows what the hell is going on is next to impossible.. speaking from experience. The way I feel about it is this: When the FDA cares enough to make a 100% CRYSTAL CLEAR statement to the public regarding what they consider legal and what they don't, along with a CLEAR EFFORT to enforce their laws then I'll spend more time worrying about it. Until then, whatever.
 

Trevor

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The FDA DOES have issue with most of Wicked's products.. HOWEVER I've still seen many references in the media stating that the Arctic (specifically, not all Wicked lasers) is legal to import so whatever their sources are still believe that they are all good. And finding someone in the FDA itself that actually knows what the hell is going on is next to impossible.. speaking from experience. The way I feel about it is this: When the FDA cares enough to make a 100% CRYSTAL CLEAR statement to the public regarding what they consider legal and what they don't, along with a CLEAR EFFORT to enforce their laws then I'll spend more time worrying about it. Until then, whatever.
The media is talking to people like David Todeschini. Enough said?

-Trevor
 
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I'm still waiting for official word from the FDA. Until that happens, we may as well all be talking to David Todeschini.. IMO anyway.
 
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daguin

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The FDA DOES have issue with most of Wicked's products.. HOWEVER I've still seen many references in the media stating that the Arctic (specifically, not all Wicked lasers) is legal to import so whatever their sources are still believe that they are all good. And finding someone in the FDA itself that actually knows what the hell is going on is next to impossible.. speaking from experience. The way I feel about it is this: When the FDA cares enough to make a 100% CRYSTAL CLEAR statement to the public regarding what they consider legal and what they don't, along with a CLEAR EFFORT to enforce their laws then I'll spend more time worrying about it. Until then, whatever.
You need more than this? (dated November 3rd, 2010)

Energy Technology Development Ltd./Wicked Lasers

(from post #28)

Peace,
dave
 
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No I guess not.. I had thought that might be fairly old since they've been issuing "warnings" to Wicked for years now.

I guess all I have to say is that we'd better watch how much we dwell on the legality of these things given the fact that (and I don't think this is an overstatement) almost all of us have "illegally imported" a laser or two. Either you have a problem with it or you don't.. the manufacturer involved means nothing at all. If we bitch about wicked and start telling everybody to watch out, then we need to have a little consistency and say that all Chinese imports are to be avoided. Just because they don't have "warning letters" of their own (that we know of) doesn't matter either.
 

EDC Laser

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The accession number for the Arctic is invalid and since it is a member of the Spyder family, it is among the lasers which have been found to be non-compliant.

EDIT: Look at the top of the form. Expiration date in 2003.
If the contents of this form are as fake as they appears to be, you may want to look at some of the genuine parts of it.. "Imprisoned no more than 5 years", "importing - $1000 per violation".
Yet another reason to stop smuggling junk lasers:crackup:
 

daguin

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No I guess not.. I had thought that might be fairly old since they've been issuing "warnings" to Wicked for years now.

I guess all I have to say is that we'd better watch how much we dwell on the legality of these things given the fact that (and I don't think this is an overstatement) almost all of us have "illegally imported" a laser or two. Either you have a problem with it or you don't.. the manufacturer involved means nothing at all. If we bitch about wicked and start telling everybody to watch out, then we need to have a little consistency and say that all Chinese imports are to be avoided. Just because they don't have "warning letters" of their own (that we know of) doesn't matter either.
Absolutely. People tend to forget that this forum is scanned by spiders, just like the rest of the internet. It is cached and archived. The content here is searchable using any web based search engine. It's admin is subject to the laws of the US. The admin must give any required info requested under legal authority.

The breaking of US law is NOT condoned by the admin. Any discussion of illegal acts are done at the poster's own peril. Once one has posted in a thread like this, one can no longer claim "ignorance." ;)

Peace,
dave
 
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Yet another reason to stop smuggling junk lasers:crackup:
:crackup:

And you only noticed *how* long afterwards?

They've been doing it for years. That certainly isn't the first warning letter they've been sent- go do a search, you really won't be surprised.

The link they once had on their Arctic page was a document from circa 2004-2005, and was for their original Spyder III series, not the Arctic. That document simply said they'd received it for approval, and was only a temporary thing, not a permanent, guaranteed approval.

Now, look at CNI, on the other hand. They don't disclose their accession numbers (because having others use their numbers would be very, very bad for their image), but they all ship with vaild Form #2877s.

All their lasers still have a 5-point safety system (interlock, keyswitch, shutter, emission delay and emission indicator), even though it's no longer required. And unlike WL, their safety features actually work.

I won't even get started on how useless the 'interlock' pin is- it's there only to meet FDA requirements, not for actual functionality.
 

aryntha

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Ok, not to get flamed, but if the FDA cares so much, they shouldnt expect people to just stop shipping. If they REALLY cared, they would actually STOP the packages at customs. They just dont care and only do this to seem like they do.
They are. They're stopping LOTS of packages at customs. MOST people now, are NOT getting their arctics. Seized packages from Wicked have become the rule rather than the exception in the last few months.
 

mbanzai1

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All legal matters aside, I finally got one of Wicked's Arctic G2 units earlier this month (after having placed my order with them last July). I have to say so far I've been quite underwhelmed by its performance. I have watched YouTube videos of these things burning through black plastic CD spindles in the space of a couple of seconds yet I try to do the same thing with mine and it doesn't even leave a mark (and this is with a fully charged battery and the 100% full power lens attached).
It boasts a level of 1 - 1.2 watts, yet it works as if it's only a 100 mw unit. Is there a trick to this that I just haven't figured out?
 

Sauron

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My friend got an Arctic last night (Christmas Eve), and he lives in Maryland, so evidently they're not all being held.
 




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