The economy of laser diodes

[rhd]

I believe there IS one option that may work, it would still be wasteful but not as much as buying teh entire projector, and that would be to find a repair shop (I know there aren't many left these days) that support (@$h-yo projectors and ask them if it's possible to just order the diode block, it would still cost a few $100 but I bet it be at least $300-500 rather then the entire projector.

I have done exactly that.

There are two authorized KasEO parts distributors in the USA. One of those two provides extensive enough on-line functionality to allow you to narrow down individual part numbers for practically everything inside the projector, including the laser diode array (which they have some funky three-letter acronym for).

Anyway, fast forward to actually pricing the part, and it was above $750 for the array from an A130 on its own. In other words, no big savings.

 

[scientist]

The prices of these diodes are so distorted !! how can the diode block of a $900 projector sell 2nd hand for $750!!!!!!!

There's optics, a peltier cooler, fans, circuitry, control modules, power supply, the case, the carry bag, the remote etc - these all go to waste after the block's extracted? such a sad waste

By the way, where can I grab a peltier cooler off one of these kasyo projectors that have had their organs harvested? I would love to show some of my students how electric cooling works

 

[rhd]

That's normal. A car costs twice as much to make in part costs purchased on their own.

 

[qumefox]

And if you have an LCD or plasma TV, if you break the panel, you throw away the tv because replacement panels 99% of the time cost more than the replacement cost of the entire tv. That is JUST now starting to change, but for the longest time, replacement panels were sometimes up to 3x the price of a new tv.

You can not understand it all you want.. But that's just the reality of things.

 

[Kmor2004]

Well at least it was worth a though, and thanks RHD for teh info.

 

[ShortyInCanada]

Business principals at work 101.
The manufacturer of a product gets a contract to purchase X number of units of a product from a supplier. Usually it comes down to a certain number of units per time period for a predetermined length of time. (eg: 10,000 per month for a year totaling 120,000 units.)
Based on that commitment and the knowledge that the supplier will have a form of (semi)guaranteed income for the duration of the contract they offer to price the units for sale at a price that is only slightly above their cost because the long term commitment has a value too. So they take in less profit per unit but make up for it by a guaranteed selling of more units over a longer time.
For the manufacturer, doing this for many of the source parts makes it much less expensive to buy everything in the final product than it would for anyone else because of the volume purchasing.
A manufacturer can also secure the rights to be the only one to receive certain key parts for the duration of their contract. This will cost more but secures the manufacturer's place in the marketplace for a longer time and can be the determining factor in a level of quality above the eventual competitors.
Because of the number of units being produced, the manufacturer can set up an efficient method (assembly line) of producing/assembling the units. Whereas an individual will have to struggle through multiple different set-ups of tools/stands/holders etc. to fabricate the same device. Very time consuming and inefficient.
Those two factors alone will be a big part of the price difference between the projector maker parts and repair parts pricing alone.
There are many other concepts and mitigating circumstances that will apply too. But they won't play into it as much and for the sake of simplicity, won't be mentioned here.

Hope that helps you to understand it a little better.

 

[Mohrenberg]

I'm free to buy what I want and I'm free to do what I
want with it....


Jerry

Not according to Crapio.
I got this message on YouTube:

"Dear Mohrenberg,

I am an attorney at Butzel Long, representing Casio of America.

Your harvesting of third-party diodes from Casio projectors is unauthorized and directly contravenes Casio's specific instructions. The removal and subsequent use of the third-party diodes from Casio projectors circumvents Casio's safety precautions. This obviously unintended usage, misuse and alteration of the Casio projector and third-party diodes (Class IV Lasers) may create a substantial risk of fire and injury to users and targets alike. We demand, therefore, that you stop.

Furthermore, your use of Casio's unique and valuable trademarks, CASIO, A-140, and/or XJA-140, is a violation of federal law.

Casio demands, therefore, that you immediately cease and desist harvesting Casio products and reselling third-party diodes therefrom. Failure to do comply with this demand will result in Casio's full consideration of its legal options.

Christopher Taylor
734-213-3605
taylorc@butzel.com
"

Naturally, I edited my videos description to exclude the word casio. I don't harvest projectors, nor do i buy them. If i did buy them, i'd do whatever i want with them.
The only Crapio projectors i've ever bought were already missing the diodes :crackup:
I also informed him that I do not sell diodes. I was kind of insulted that I got a prewritten message. If i'm going to be threatened he could of at least sat down and wrote a person message just for me

 

[chipdouglas]

^^^^ my brother is a lawyer matt, pm me that attorneys name and what state he practices in. i will have my bro seach the bar data base just to be sure it is a real lawyer.


ok, found it... he is an attorney in good standing in Michigan.



michael.

 

[qumefox]

The use of their name and projector model numbers etc might land you in court, though it's unlikely, since the scenario is little different from buying a ford then selling the engine out of it and having ford sue you for advertising the engine came out of a ford..

After all, no one selling these diodes are claiming to be casio, or to have manufactured these projectors, etc.

There is nothing illegal about harvesting the diodes either. When you buy the piece of hardware, it's yours to do with as you please so long as you don't infringe on the manufacturers IP rights. And harvesting a component in no way does that since no one is claiming to have invented them.. nor are they trying to reverse engineer them.

Most likely these letters and threats are just casio trying to show 'due diligence' for the inevitable day when some moron blinds themselves or others, and they try to sue casio. It's so casio can legally show 'Well we told them to stop and it was dangerous'.

However.. If casio, or any other manufacturer of anything, should actually bring legal action against someone for 'doing as they please' legally with something they purchased.. Then it should be fought at all costs.

The last thing the world needs is for there to be legal precedent showing that manufacturers can still control the products they sell even post sale.. That just opens the door for a whole lot of bad things..

 

[ShortyInCanada]

Just a little bit more off the topic first ;

That's funny !
"Failure to do comply with this demand will result in Casio's full consideration of its legal options."

Let `em consider their legal options. They can also consider kissing your @$$. You aren't claiming anything to do with their trademark or intellectual rights. They haven't a leg to stand on. (Sounds more like a legal version of "If you don't stop I don't know what I'll do !")
As stated above, once you paid for it, it is yours to do with as you please. If your choice is to prevent yet another poor helpless child from spending too much time in front of a TV by making it inoperable then that is your perogative and right.

But back on topic ;
The point I was trying to make was that perhaps your view of what is economical is too limited. The bigger picture is very complicated and convoluted and usually counterintuitive.
For example : Did you know that McDonalds sells their burgers at a loss just to get the customers in the door. If you only bought the burgers then you would always get a great deal as they would lose money serving you. But how many people only buy the burgers ? They make a profit on all the other items they sell. As most people buy a drink, fries, a desert item, etc. with that burger the overall meal makes them money.
Big companies frequently work on the same pricipal. There are always "loss leaders" used to get the other more profitable items out the door.
So perhaps the manufacturer of the diodes is letting them go cheap so that a bunch of the other parts from the same supplier are also used and they make the profit there.
For you buying only the one part they have no incentive to discount the price. You pay the full market price.

 

[regalis]

The last thing the world needs is for there to be legal precedent showing that manufacturers can still control the products they sell even post sale.. That just opens the door for a whole lot of bad things..

As Apple sadly does with their iPhones....

 

[Benm]

I have done exactly that.

There are two authorized KasEO parts distributors in the USA. One of those two provides extensive enough on-line functionality to allow you to narrow down individual part numbers for practically everything inside the projector, including the laser diode array (which they have some funky three-letter acronym for).

Anyway, fast forward to actually pricing the part, and it was above $750 for the array from an A130 on its own. In other words, no big savings.

Interesting to see that in even exists as a spare part... as its probably not something thats likely to wear out in proper use, nor warrant the cost of replacing it (plus labour it would cost more than a new projector, surely). This is different from the DVD writer sleds, as their price is a smaller fraction of the total product cost, and it IS a component that can wear out in real world use.

As for Crapio threatening people that disassemble their product and sell the parts: Perhaps they could do something about that in the US, which would only shift the projects to other jurisdictions like the EU countries, where you can do anything with hardware you buy.

Perhaps it would be a brand infringement to sell them as 'crapio diodes', but selling them as 'diodes that came from a crapio projector' would be fine, as that is exactly what they are, regardless if crapio actually produces the diodes or condones their removal and resale.

 

[qumefox]

As Apple sadly does with their iPhones....

That behavior on their part was actually ruled to be illegal over here after a partial reversal of some DMCA clauses that were counter to 'fair use'.. However it hasn't really changed anything, since no one has of yet sued apple over it here, to my knowledge anyway.

 

[Benm]

I don't know what apple is up to in the us, but i'm quite sure that i could buy an iphone, take it apart and sell the components as 'iphone battery', 'iphone screen' and whatever else comes out of it.

Software vendor lock in is another matter entirely though... and far beyond the scope of this topic or forum.

 

[blue bumblebee]

im thinking they are referring apple for the "jailbreaking" war
"if i bought my iphone, i can do w/e i want. which includes jailbreaking it"

 

[Jmillerdoc]

Any idea where the guys at the "big box" laser outlets like O-like and Wicked Laser get their 445 diodes for their lasers? Surely these lasers they sell don't use diodes harvested from Crapio projectors...or do they? I never considered this until I came across this thread. All of this is quite interesting.

Also, I see some of the forum members sell built lasers for profit...I was wounding if someone doing this could comment on their concerns for legal issues such as blindness from a laser they sold. I am sure there is cause for concern over getting sued. Are you guys setting up S corporations to provide a layer of protection from a personal lawsuit against you? Really hoping someone selling completed lasers would comment on how they perceive the threat of suit and what they do to protect themselves from one.

I bought my first laser from a member who bought it from Helios I believe. Since then I have built several 445's and a few other colors. Now I am wanting to try different things and different hosts....combining two diodes power in a hand held and things like this...I have accumulated more lasers than I want or "need" and was considering selling them here at LPF appropriate forum....but I am somewhat fearful of doing this because of the risk of injury. I have a small S Corp set up for one of my business and thought of selling it from the corporation but I haven't looked into the actual level of indemnification that would provide against personal lawsuits.

Thanks in advance for your comments!
Sincerely,
Jeff