Seeking Advice from experinced Fourm sellers and buyers

[daguin]

Alright guys, I typed out a response, but I felt it would be more appropriate I do a video response. I'm not too great with typing and it's hard to gauge one's sincerity or emotion via just words.

Here's my response, with honesty, respect, and love:

Honestly guys, I'm not too great with talking either, in fact I've never done this before... so please bare with me while I try to explain everything.

Just a few quick issues:

AlertPay DOES charge fees. It charges 4.9%+$.25. IIRC this is higher than PayPal
AlertPay Fees Calculator by Ryan Olbe

If you are willing to accept AlertPay WITHOUT tracking, why would you compare that cost to what it would cost WITH tracking using PayPal
If you used PayPal WITHOUT tracking, the cost would be substantially less. Compare apples to apples.
I am most concerned with this issue. How this was handled exposes that either you are naive about AlertPay or you are being less than honest

It is not "us guys" that have ruined your fun here. YOU chose to make a business in a market where we are VERY protective of our members without researching how the forum deals with sellers.
If you are going to be a seller in this market, you have to learn how to work in it. It is NOT the market's job to adapt to your desires

I don't care how much you charge for a build. That is your choice and right.
However, the other side of that "right" is the members' right to make comment on those prices and/or make recommendations to your potential buyers.
This market has never shied away from stating what it feels and believes.

Finally, regarding the request to "take it to PM's." I will never support closing off communication this way.
Your offers and ad's are public. Any comments should be equally public.
Without some level of transparency, there is NO protection for the members

Peace,
dave

 

[RyanElectro]

Hey Ryan, I just watched your video. Just to clarify, when I commented and suggested for everyone not to use Alertpay that was a general statement about what Hell Alertpay can be. That was directed to sellers...meaning you. If/when you receive payment from someone on Alert pay they sometimes will hold that money you received for an indefinite amount of time. Their reason for this to me was that they wanted to make sure the funds that I received were legitimate. Take it however it makes sense to you. Anyway they had my money for months before I was able to get it out. Also at the time I was finally able to get it out all of the withdrawal options were unavailable aside from 1 and I had to jump through a few hoops to even do that. As a seller it is shit. It sounds like it is bad as a buyer too. So enough about alertpay.

As for your prices, I have not seen anything super high until your latest SLII build. While it is an exceptional diode and a solid laser I wouldn't post any 2W+ laser higher than $350 unless it used a host that cost $100 (such as an Ehgemus) That is just me though and I tend to price my lasers lower than everyone else so people sometimes will expect similar pricing from new sellers. The closest example I can give would be a 2050mW laser I built in the same host. http://laserpointerforums.com/f39/2-050mw-445nm-slii-sold-73427.html
This sold for $250....my listing price. Of course the power was 20% less so that is reason for a higher price. I would think roughly $50 more since that is how much extra you would need to pay for a binned diode from FP. So yeah your current build would probably sell better at $300 (looks like you came to the same conclusion). It is your choice! People need to respect the fact that it is your laser and you can try to sell it for whatever price you want. It doesn't matter if it is overpriced in their mind. What matters is what it is worth to the person who buys it and what it is worth to you as the seller.

As for you being arrogant I do not see this but I haven't read half your posts. I think it is a good thing that you think highly of your work and you obviously have some skill building lasers. After watching your video, arrogant is not an adjective that comes to mind as a personality trait.
Your lay out does look flashy with your use of various colors, sizes, bolding, underlines, bullet points, italicization, ridiculous laser names, embedded videos, photo sizing and layout but that is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it looks nice. You clearly put a lot of time and effort into making your listings look that way (similar to Lazeerer's) Now to say you are doing that to draw in customers is probably 100% correct but I don't see anything wrong with that. If you can put that much effort and detail in your sales post it should act to mirror the attention and detail you put in your builds. I hope so anyway. Perhaps that is why my name isn't listed above with Lazeerer, rhd, DTR, and Dave. I put very little effort into making my sales post look pretty and focus primarily on getting the vital specifications to the reader as quickly as possible followed by detailed photos. Maybe if I fluff up my sales threads my builds will be regarded in higher esteem. Makes sense to me.
Sorry for this incredibly long post out of left field. I am bored and felt like typing. I have no diodes to build lasers with and my hands need to do something!

No problem yob, I believe your experience with AP. I mean, to be honest I've never even done a single transaction with it yet. lol. So, I can't say much.

Yeah I see your point, see I haven't been here too long so I don't truly know what the price ranges are, just what popped up here and there over the recent year and I followed that... there were very little, perhaps only 2 builds 2.5W and up all these years I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, there was one thread, I just kinda... had it, man I just ain't good with dealing with trolling, I get emotionally involved. Just gotta remember to detach a bit and stay cool.

But, damn yob, you sure are observant and eloquent in your articulations of my shop outlook. But you're right. Everything must be neat and perfect. It's in my character. It does take me longer than most people to finish a build and I do tend to over-engineer things. Clearly, your approach is working much better! :crackup:

But yeah I mean... I think we aim at different markets, you have a straight no bs approach for the hobbyists and older audience that is proven to work really well. I actually feel I don't build lasers for other hobbyists, but more so teenagers and young adults, noobs and still-noobs. That's who my target market were at least, hence the very non-technical, simplistic descriptions. Really I think I'm probably not even competing with you because of this difference in target audience. I can't impress other hobbyists just yet but I will compensate in other areas

 

[RyanElectro]

Just a few quick issues:

AlertPay DOES charge fees. It charges 4.9%+$.25. IIRC this is higher than PayPal
AlertPay Fees Calculator by Ryan Olbe

If you are willing to accept AlertPay WITHOUT tracking, why would you compare that cost to what it would cost WITH tracking using PayPal
If you used PayPal WITHOUT tracking, the cost would be substantially less. Compare apples to apples.
I am most concerned with this issue. How this was handled exposes that either you are naive about AlertPay or you are being less than honest

It is not "us guys" that have ruined your fun here. YOU chose to make a business in a market where we are VERY protective of our members without researching how the forum deals with sellers.
If you are going to be a seller in this market, you have to learn how to work in it. It is NOT the market's job to adapt to your desires

I don't care how much you charge for a build. That is your choice and right.
However, the other side of that "right" is the members' right to make comment on those prices and/or make recommendations to your potential buyers.
This market has never shied away from stating what it feels and believes.

Finally, regarding the request to "take it to PM's." I will never support closing off communication this way.
Your offers and ad's are public. Any comments should be equally public.
Without some level of transparency, there is NO protection for the members

Peace,
dave

That's odd. It says transaction both receive and send are free here: https://www.alertpay.com/en/fees.aspx (I have the personal starter account).

I guess I can't explain myself properly. I'm sorry, I'm not good at explaining, seriously... Okay. Alertpay allows me to use just customs tracking and proof that I shipped the product, so pictures of the shipping label attached to the product in the post office would qualify, etc. They accept all types of proof and Seller Protection is still in effect (if Buyer chargesback, Alertpay will take the loss) Paypal doesn't, Paypal requires Tracking + Signature Confirmation with any transaction of $250 USD or $325 CAD to qualify for Seller Protection (if Buyer charges back, Paypal will take the loss). Paypal does not budge on this rule for Seller Protection. Alertpay is fine with all types of evidence, as much evidence as possible is better. Hope this clears things up for you.

And no, nobody here "ruined" my fun dave, that's not what I'm saying, I'm sorry. I know I'm not good with this, but I mean getting trolled isn't fun and it's upsetting. That's all I'm saying. Not about you or any mods on LPF...

And sure thing I understand.

Ryan

 

[daguin]

That's odd. It says transaction both receive and send are free here: https://www.alertpay.com/en/fees.aspx (I have the personal starter account).

A "Personal Starter" account is only good up to $400 a month.
You would have to limit your sales to no more than ONE laser a month

I guess I can't explain myself properly. I'm sorry, I'm not good at explaining, seriously... Okay. Alertpay allows me to use just customs tracking and proof that I shipped the product, so pictures of the shipping label attached to the product in the post office would qualify, etc. They accept all types of proof and Seller Protection is still in effect (if Buyer chargesback, Alertpay will take the loss) Paypal doesn't, Paypal requires Tracking + Signature Confirmation with any transaction of $250 USD or $325 CAD to qualify for Seller Protection (if Buyer charges back, Paypal will take the loss). Paypal does not budge on this rule for Seller Protection. Alertpay is fine with all types of evidence, as much evidence as possible is better. Hope this clears things up for you.

This is still problematic. YOU are protected, but your buyer is NOT

And no, nobody here "ruined" my fun dave, that's not what I'm saying, I'm sorry. I know I'm not good with this, but I mean getting trolled isn't fun and it's upsetting. That's all I'm saying. Not about you or any mods on LPF...

And sure thing I understand.

Ryan

It is no fun getting trolled, but it is part of doing business here

Peace,
dave

 

[RyanElectro]

A "Personal Starter" account is only good up to $400 a month.
You would have to limit your sales to no more than ONE laser a month



This is still problematic. YOU are protected, but your buyer is NOT



It is no fun getting trolled, but it is part of doing business here

Peace,
dave

That's true. I haven't used that one yet haha. I do all other transactions below $325 CAD on Paypal (which is every other).

There is no official buyer protection, but the buyer can dispute if he wants to. And with sufficient evidence, he can win. But regardless, I won't be out with money if I already shipped the laser, Alertpay will cover the loss for me.

 

[jakeGT]

Your still not getting it with the pricing. These guys might be charging a little bit more for the "badarse diode", but rhd and lazeerers builds can have high price tags due to the craftsmanship and quality they put into the build. That 2.5W build you did was not that big of a feat. You had one hell of a diode obviously, but it wasn't that rough of a build. Maybe if you cut those copper heatsinks with a hacksaw and a vice it should not have taken terribly long to do. What rhd and lazeerer sell for $300+ are works of art.

 

[RyanElectro]

Your still not getting it with the pricing. These guys might be charging a little bit more for the "badarse diode", but rhd and lazeerers builds can have high price tags due to the craftsmanship and quality they put into the build. That 2.5W build you did was not that big of a feat. You had one hell of a diode obviously, but it wasn't that rough of a build. Maybe if you cut those copper heatsinks with a hacksaw and a vice it should not have taken terribly long to do. What rhd and lazeerer sell for $300+ are works of art.

I'm sorry I can't produce art. But I do try what I can.

 

[Wolfman29]

Also Ryan - we are not okay with people selling to teenagers here or noobs here, especially when you are selling them something 500 times more powerful than is enough to blind you faster than you can blink.

That's why Lazeerer sells his with safety goggles. If you're going to sell these high powers, either only sell to hobbyists or only sell with laser goggles.

 

[RyanElectro]

Also Ryan - we are not okay with people selling to teenagers here or noobs here, especially when you are selling them something 500 times more powerful than is enough to blind you faster than you can blink.

That's why Lazeerer sells his with safety goggles. If you're going to sell these high powers, either only sell to hobbyists or only sell with laser goggles.

I will do my best to make sure the people I sell to on this forum will be responsible and have or are buying safety goggles :yh:

 

[yobresal]

You are getting a lot of good advice here and much of it may be critical. Continue to take it with your positive attitude like your doing and things will work out well for you.
EDIT: Just read through a closed thread for the first time......glad things are not going in that direction.
I think once you work your way through 40 or so M140 diodes you will begin to value the ones that go above ~2.3W a bit less than you currently do. They really are amazing little buggers and many of them can reach great heights. Heck, I have even have A140 diodes that have hit some pretty darned high outputs. Then again I have literally used hundreds of them.

 

[jakeGT]

I agree with yob. When I built that 2.1W eghemus, I am fairly positive the 2.2W barrier hadn't even been reached yet. And if it had it was only DTR with one maybe 2 at that power. If I had sold it I wouldnt have dreamed of asking $400 for it, even though it was $95 host, with a $20 battery and dual flexdrives.

You just need to be concerned a little less with your profit margin, quit hiring lawyers for your laser "business" and treat it more like a hobby.

You are clearly no business man, so quit treating lasers like a business and treat it like a hobby. As Dave said, we're not gonna let you take $150 in parts and sell it for $400. NEVER

We protect our members.

 

[DTR]

That's odd. It says transaction both receive and send are free here: https://www.alertpay.com/en/fees.aspx (I have the personal starter account).
(if Buyer charges back, Paypal will take the loss).

I am very confused about this Alertpay thing. If they charge no fees how do they make money? Do they do it out of the goodness of their hearts?

With paypal they never take the hit and I can't imagine Alertpay would. Either the seller or the buyer is out the money with paypal. They never eat squat. I can't imagine Alertpay being any different.

So form what I am seeing they charge no fees and if the item does not arrive they will eat the selling price. Does not sound like a very sound business plan to me.:tinfoil:

 

[daguin]

I am very confused about this Alertpay thing. If they charge no fees how do they make money? Do they do it out of the goodness of their hearts?

With paypal they never take the hit and I can't imagine Alertpay would. Either the seller or the buyer is out the money with paypal. They never eat squat. I can't imagine Alertpay being any different.

So form what I am seeing they charge no fees and if the item does not arrive they will eat the selling price. Does not sound like a very sound business plan to me.:tinfoil:

I just went through part of the user agreement for AlertPay
Ryan is either just naive or he is being untruthful

The "Personal Starter" account is only good for less than $400 a month OR $2000 lifetime.
It is their "loss leader" teaser
Upon reaching either of those limits, the account automatically switches over to a fee based account
There are some "industries" in which the "personal Started" account is NOT available at all

Also, AlertPay has basically the same resolution process as PayPal
This includes recovering funds from the sellers account if available
AlertPay does NOT "eat it"
If a seller has insufficient funds when a dispute is filed, the account is suspended and any money in the account is held pending resolution
If there are not sufficient funds in the sellers account at resolution, the buyer has no recourse (and the sellers account is canceled)

One BIG difference here is that if a buyer initiates a "charge back" through their credit card company, the buyers account is suspended!

After reading the agreement, I am left, once again, with a couple of possibilities

Either Ryan is very naive or he was less than truthful with his buyer to protect himself and transfer all risk to the buyer

This remains my main concern here.
**IF** Ryan lied to increase his profit or attempted to pass ALL fiscal responsibility onto a naive buyer, he has committed a dishonest act

Right now, I am hoping he is simply naive

Peace,
dave

 

[rpaloalto]

Good detective work Dave.
Ryan? op:

 

[obsidianjaguar]

now i am starting to feel really bad about all of this ... i truly do not think Ryan was motivated in any way towards Alert Pay , other than trying to save me some $$ as i had mentioned to him due to his original asking price i was going to have to save up before paying him the full amount. I really honestly think he is a good guy , in fact he put the item on hold and just wanted a deposit until i had the full funds .
When i started getting multiple people messaging me , and pointing out a few things i was being naive about , then i started to wonder if i was actually making a good investment. not so much that Ryan was being dishonest or anything , just that i needed to do more digging before committing my $$. as stated , one reason to join these forums is to gather info from people who have had a lot of experience in this awesome hobby ... The people who were giving me warnings were all long time members who have successfully completed many transactions here and all had shining reviews about the end results.... So i guess i got a little swayed by advice from people who seemed to have more experience than me, i also felt all warm and fuzzy that people were looking out for the new kid on the block
I was still tempted by Ryan due to I felt he was good to me on a personal level, his build , while not "work of art " , seemed to bea solid build and lots of detail and work had gone into both the build and the testing side of things , along with all the extras such as fliters , holster tripod ect , Ryan even agreed to get me some glasses to thrown in to the box for just $8.00.. but then the banning thing happened and i got kinda "paranoid" at that stage .. Thought i'd start this thread to clear the air about the payment method, just cause , yes i want to save $$ , but not at the expense of protection for both buyer and seller, my thoughts were 110% that Ryan wasn't after the payment method as a way to increase his profits ( other than on the basis that if i am on a budget , spending less on shipping would have made it easier for me to pay his asking price) and for the record, i definitely was the one who had noticed there was a referral program at AlertPay , and i brought it to Ryan's attention, he was not previously aware of it at all.
It so happened that DTR's name came up from many completely different conversations i was having with a few folk here ,and he offered me a "work of art build" with the same power output , but it was $100 cheaper , including tracked shipping . So my choice was , either a person with many years of good feedback, or a much newer builder who seemed to be offering a more complete "package" type deal for more $$. I went with my budget had already sent payment to DTR when i noticed Ryans ban lifted and now seen the offer for greatly reduced prices . I would still consider buying from him in the future , i think it was a learning curve for both me as a buyer , and for Ryan as a seller , and i hope i have not given the impression that he acted in any way towards me other than friendly and professional ..

 

[RyanElectro]

I just went through part of the user agreement for AlertPay
Ryan is either just naive or he is being untruthful

The "Personal Starter" account is only good for less than $400 a month OR $2000 lifetime.
It is their "loss leader" teaser
Upon reaching either of those limits, the account automatically switches over to a fee based account
There are some "industries" in which the "personal Started" account is NOT available at all

Also, AlertPay has basically the same resolution process as PayPal
This includes recovering funds from the sellers account if available
AlertPay does NOT "eat it"
If a seller has insufficient funds when a dispute is filed, the account is suspended and any money in the account is held pending resolution
If there are not sufficient funds in the sellers account at resolution, the buyer has no recourse (and the sellers account is canceled)

One BIG difference here is that if a buyer initiates a "charge back" through their credit card company, the buyers account is suspended!

After reading the agreement, I am left, once again, with a couple of possibilities

Either Ryan is very naive or he was less than truthful with his buyer to protect himself and transfer all risk to the buyer

This remains my main concern here.
**IF** Ryan lied to increase his profit or attempted to pass ALL fiscal responsibility onto a naive buyer, he has committed a dishonest act

Right now, I am hoping he is simply naive

Peace,
dave

I never not done a single transaction with AP yet, so I'm not sure what happens after this or that. All I knew was that my account had free transactions, I didn't know it will switch over after that $400 a month. If so, that's fine, so it'll be good for one transaction then I guess.

Buyer can dispute if he wants to on AlertPay, so if there's any problem and have sufficient evidence to prove it, he can get a refund via dispute process (which should never be the case as buyers should contact me first). One difference with AP is that I can provide other evidence of proof of delivery where Paypal will ONLY accept Tracking + Signature confirmation, which is too expensive to New Zealand and will not budge on this whatsoever. So IF the seller decides to take the risk and allow the international buyer to go for a cheaper shipping option, and ship the product with International Air: Tracking but no signature confirmation... and the item was delivered successfully (even if it says it on tracking), the buyer can still claim non-receipt and win because there wasn't any signature confirmation. A rule that basically hints that a fellow family member can steal your mail.. lol. So he keeps the laser AND gets back the money.

The worst is charge-backs. Credit card companies always win chargebacks. Paypal has almost no say-power in CC disputes. If buyer charges back with his CC, Paypal/Alertpay will dispute on my behalf with evidence I provide. 90% of the time, the CC company will win, unless rock solid, undeniable mountains of proof is given (srsly). If I have Seller Protection, Paypal/Alertpay will cover my chargeback loss (I already shipped the item, but buyer does not have it, so I can't get it back). If I don't have Seller Protection, I'm out the laser AND the cash. This is something I cannot risk and can easily happen to all sellers.

I can protect CAN/US buyers with only Paypal options. This is the best I can do, I'm sorry. But other international buyers will have to go through another payment processor where $67 shipping isnt required. Sad how complicated online transactions have to be now-a-days. Only exception: if someone trusted buys from me, then depending on how trustworthy he is, I'd allow him to pay via Paypal, so I'm reassured he won't screw me over and chargeback to lose both cash and laser. Hopefully this is the case.

I'm just trying to protect myself here, not trying to profit by using Alertpay. Come on, I'm not like that dave. You know this.

I tried not to divulge too much about how to perform the buyer chargeback scam but I'm sure some of you can easily figure it out. Daguin if you need any more explanation, I'll happily PM it to you, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to say every detail of the process in public.