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Pioneer 16X BDR-209DBK

RYDorDIE278

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Are you saying you ran it for 30 minutes constantly or 30 minutes total time? what driver was being used ?
from what i understood these arent the type of diode that give of much heat or warning signs before blowing, the max i have run my BDR-209 was 1min whilst doing an LPM reading and my Zaser Host was as Cold as when i started the test. mine is Run at 650mA also
what power source was powering the driver also?
im no expert but with some of this info others may be able to get a better understanding
 



The Lightning Stalker

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The problem with a laser cutter is
ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON-OFF. If the driver
isn't very carefully designed, the constant
spikes will quickly kill the diode. Even
if it is, who knows how long it will last
being turned on and off like that. The
manufacturer never intended them to run at
these currents.
 

JimMc

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I'm using a flexmodP3 to drive the diode. I had about 30 minutes of total run time, in 5-10 minutes of "on" chunks.

Actually: OFF-ON-OFF-ON is what the diodes are designed for exactly. That's what it does at very very high rates while burning a Blu-Ray. The real problem with laser cutters is exactly the opposite: continuous on time.

I'm now running a NDB7875 at 1.8 continuous and it's been working great for many hours, I'd like to find a similar sweet spot for the BDR-209 diode since its beam profile is so much better.

-Jim
 

The Lightning Stalker

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I'm using a flexmodP3 to drive the diode. I had about 30 minutes of total run time, in 5-10 minutes of "on" chunks.

Actually: OFF-ON-OFF-ON is what the diodes are designed for exactly. That's what it does at very very high rates while burning a Blu-Ray. The real problem with laser cutters is exactly the opposite: continuous on time.

Yeah, but not actually at 600mA, exatcly.

The Flexmod is a good driver when it's
working properly. Maybe the diode wasn't
quite up to snuff. Maybe it overheated.
Maybe the Flexmod was misbehaving. Maybe
it caught a reflection and died by C.O.D.
 

barthchris

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I absolutely love this diode. Being that its single mode, I love this when paired with a G2 lens. I can send a beam, probably 100 yards and still have a relatively small spot. Close up when focused to burn, its spot is extremely small and powerful, it looks like its a spot of white hot plasma vapourising everything in its path.:D

It's the only diode that I own that I can use with that lens, all other multimode diodes look terrible with the G2.

In the summer, there are certain leaves that fluoresce under this wavelength, its a pretty cool effect. Different type of chlorophyll maybe?

I like to push my diodes hard, I know the risk and accept the consequences if they die, its the nature of the beast. I've harvested many of the BDR 16x's, these diodes seem much less sensitive than the SO6J 12x's. But, it still seems 405's are sensitive when pushed hard. For me, I can run it several cycles each just a few seconds and the next time I press the switch there will be no light. Others it will die in the middle of a cycle. I've used flexmod and x-boost drivers set at 600ma and some will last for a long time, some will die quickly. With those random failures it seems that there is no one cause for failure, it seems, well, random, or maybe just too much power.

I reluctantly lowered the current on my flexmod to 500ma ( should have done that some diodes ago!:whistle:) and so far, I've had a long run without failure.;) For me, that 100ma makes a huge difference in longevity. I don't have a laser power/watt meter so I don't know the output but the perceived brightness does take a small hit but I would trade it any day for the diode life I'm getting now. I should have just started low and I wouldn't know what I was missing.

Just some food for thought.:)

Edit: After I wrote this I did a little reading of recent threads, it seems soft start drivers are the key when these are driven at higher currents. Since the X boost has soft start I may need to switch over even with lower currents. Can't remember if the X boost has a pot or not for adjustment, it's buried somewhere, need to dig it out.
 
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AngelG

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@TheDukeAnumber1 (#134), @The Lightning Stalker (#16)
Yes, it works in pulsed mode in the BDR writer. Let me use my B :thinking: to fill in the missing information in 2 steps:
1. What's already known:
1.1 BDR 209 is Japanese product;
1.2 In Japan, the famous 405nm diode technology developers are Sony and Nichia;
1.3. The highest power known devices: from Sony are SLD3237VF, SLD3237vfr and SLD3239vfr and for Nichia NDV4B16.
1.4. Power vs BDR speed. SLD3237VF is targeted for 12x BDR DL writers. It can do 200mW CW & 400 mW pulse (<30nS).
2. Extrapolation:
2.1 (Using 1.1 & 1.2): Being a big client, Pioneer could custom order a new diode; But the semiconductor crystal should be taken from existing developments and made by someone who already has the technology (e.t Sony, Nichia).
2.2. Power+logic: If 12x BDR requires 200 mW CW => 16x roughly requires 280mW CW (I know they are actually used in pulsed mode w 2xPower). Let say 300 mW CW/600 mW pulsed. SLD3237VF achieves 300mW with 230 mA current (pulsed), NDV4B16 - with the same current, but NDV4B16 can withstand 300mW CW by spec;
Calculations: (16x/12x = 1.333; Let say 1.4; 1.4*200=280 mW, let say 300 mW)
Since the 200mW CW LD can work at 400 mW pulsed (Sony datasheet), I assume that 300 mW can do at 600 mW pulsed (<30nS, 50% duty).

Additional elaborations: If it can do 600 mW short pulses, our (mine from yesterday) unknown LD should be able to withstand longer pulses w. 50% duty at 450 mW;
So my guess is that anybodyl who push it even at 450 mW CW is killing it, but slowly, since it's rated to work 5k-10k hours.
Also I suspect that the crystal manufacturer is either those who make NDV4B16 or those who have SLD3239 diode.
I have not killed NDV4B16 or SLD3239vfr to confirm whether BDR209's diode crystal is the same as theirs (or not), neither have read somebody to have tested the SLD3237VF though.
Driver currents: by datasheets, NDV4B16 gives 300 mW at 230 mA typ., SLD3237VF gives 400 mW at about 290 mA (pulsed). Based on this, I would not recommend feeding more than 350 mA current into our unknown BDR209 diode and 290 mA into our unknow S06J diode (which can possibly be SLD3237VF or NDV4B16).
Personally I have bought 3x BDR209SLED (why so many?!), one extracted 5.6 mm S06J LD, 3.8mm SLD3239vfr, couple of 5.6mm SLD3237VFs,2x 5.6mm SLD3235VF and a 20mW Sanyo / Panassonic LD . When they arrive, I'm going to compare their I/V characteristics. As I have no other means to measure their power, I'll use an 1W LED or a solar cell as photo detector to measure the photocurrent generated so to be able to compare their optical output power at equal current. This method is very..unreliable, because the sensitivity is so low, that I can not detect anything at 1% PWM, pulsed mode. And one can not compare SLD3235 to SLD3237 in higher currents unless force SLD3235 to work in pulsed mode to prevent it's crystal from meltdown.
I expect your thoughts on the topic. :thanks:
genc-ange
 
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barthchris

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@TheDukeAnumber1 (#134), @The Lightning Stalker (#16)
Yes, it works in pulsed mode in the BDR writer. Let me use my B :thinking: to fill in the missing information in 2 steps:
1. What's already known:
1.1 BDR 209 is Japanese product;
1.2 In Japan, the famous 405nm diode technology developers are Sony and Nichia;
1.3. The highest power known devices: from Sony are SLD3237VF, SLD3237vfr and SLD3239vfr and for Nichia NDV4B16.
1.4. Power vs BDR speed. SLD3237VF is targeted for 12x BDR DL writers. It can do 200mW CW & 400 mW pulse (<30nS).
2. Extrapolation:
2.1 (Using 1.1 & 1.2): Being a big client, Pioneer could custom order a new diode; But the semiconductor crystal should be taken from existing developments and made by someone who already has the technology (e.t Sony, Nichia).
2.2. Power+logic: If 12x BDR requires 200 mW CW => 16x roughly requires 280mW CW (I know they are actually used in pulsed mode w 2xPower). Let say 300 mW CW/600 mW pulsed. SLD3237VF achieves 300mW with 230 mA current (pulsed), NDV4B16 - with the same current, but NDV4B16 can withstand 300mW CW by spec;
Calculations: (16x/12x = 1.333; Let say 1.4; 1.4*200=280 mW, let say 300 mW)
Since the 200mW CW LD can work at 400 mW pulsed (Sony datasheet), I assume that 300 mW can do at 600 mW pulsed (<30nS, 50% duty).

Additional elaborations: If it can do 600 mW short pulses, our (mine from yesterday) unknown LD should be able to withstand longer pulses w. 50% duty at 450 mW;
So my guess is that anybodyl who push it even at 450 mW CW is killing it, but slowly, since it's rated to work 5k-10k hours.
Also I suspect that the crystal manufacturer is either those who make NDV4B16 or those who have SLD3239 diode.
I have not killed NDV4B16 or SLD3239vfr to confirm whether BDR209's diode crystal is the same as theirs (or not), neither have read somebody to have tested the SLD3237VF though.
Driver currents: by datasheets, NDV4B16 gives 300 mW at 230 mA typ., SLD3237VF gives 400 mW at about 290 mA (pulsed). Based on this, I would not recommend feeding more than 350 mA current into our unknown BDR209 diode and 290 mA into our unknow S06J diode (which can possibly be SLD3237VF or NDV4B16).
Personally I have bought one BDR209SLED, one extracted S06J LD, couple of 5.6mm SLD3237VFs,2xSLD3235VF and 20mW SLD3231. When they arrive, I'm going to compare their I/V characteristics. As I have no other means to measure their power, I'll use an 1W LED or a solar cell as photo detector to measure the photocurrent generated so to be able to compare their optical output power at equal current. This method is very..unreliable, because the sensitivity is so low, that I can not detect anything at 1% PWM, pulsed mode. And one can not compare SLD3235 to SLD3237 in higher currents unless force SLD3235 to work in pulsed mode to prevent it's crystal from meltdown.
I expect your thoughts on the topic. :thanks:
genc-ange

Well thought out conclusions! We are definitely WAY overdriving these diodes at the high ends. This is just an observation as both diodes were pushed to DTR's upper limit recommendation but, I've noticed the SOJ to be slightly more delicate than the BDR. Been through a few of each and the SOJ seemed to "LED" faster.

Its annoying but I think its the price we have to pay for high output CW 405's. No other option exists at them moment.

Good thing is I've noticed the price of these diodes drop almost in half compared to a few years ago.:D Soon, I may hit up DTR and try to sneak a few BDR's past the wife since mine have blinked out.

Ive built the latest 6-7W 445's and the 5W 465's, also have 100mw 520 and a 1W 520 but my favorite is still the 405. At close to 1W the single mode 405 is impressive. I can't stand the high divergence of multimode diodes and no other single mode has the power of the 405.
 

AngelG

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@barthchris: What do you imply with 'the SOJ seemed to "LED" faster' - at equal current or at what current ? The BDRs are around $26 each, your wife must be very provident :)


I've recently got (well it's in transit) China-assembled Sony SLD3239VFR and I'll try to compare this with the hnk BDR209. But I think it not to be a death-match, I want to compare the I/V curves. I need to know more.
AFAIK the AlGaInN crystals for SLD3239 are being diffused in Japan, then put in the body @ China.
I suspect that Sony & Nichia somehow share the technology. Our hnk S06J or SOJ and hnk BRD209's are likely to be produced by Nichia. SLD3239 is rated for 180mW CW / 360 pulsed, so it might be match for the hnk S06J diode. Unfortunately I do not have optic power meter. It's not worth to spend $700 on LPM just to test a $17 diode.
But based on the DTR's measurements (unfortunately he hasn't conducted a second test to let us know the dispersion of the results) of hnk S06J, I'll do a relative comparisson. SLD3239vfr is rated to have the highest differential efficiency among the 405nm Sony diodes I have datasheets for: ηD = 1.7 mW/mA typ., range is 1.3 .. 2.0 mW/mA. For the others, it is less than 1.6 mW/mW/mA.
It's Vf voltage can reach 8.5V (when cooled at 0 °C), the maximum current - 500 mA, pulsed. Close to the hnk S06J ?
 
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barthchris

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@barthchris: What do you imply with 'the SOJ seemed to "LED" faster' - at equal current or at what current ? The BDRs are around $26 each, your wife must be very provident :)


I've recently got (well it's in transit) China-assembled Sony SLD3239VFR and I'll try to compare this with the hnk BDR209. But I think it not to be a death-match, I want to compare the I/V curves. I need to know more.
AFAIK the AlGaInN crystals for SLD3239 are being diffused in Japan, then put in the body @ China.
I suspect that Sony & Nichia somehow share the technology. Our hnk S06J or SOJ and hnk BRD209's are likely to be produced by Nichia. SLD3239 is rated for 180mW CW / 360 pulsed, so it might be match for the hnk S06J diode. Unfortunately I do not have optic power meter. It's not worth to spend $700 on LPM just to test a $17 diode.
But based on the DTR's measurements (unfortunately he hasn't conducted a second test to let us know the dispersion of the results) of hnk S06J, I'll do a relative comparisson. SLD3239vfr is rated to have the highest differential efficiency among the 405nm Sony diodes I have datasheets for: ηD = 1.7 mW/mA typ., range is 1.3 .. 2.0 mW/mA. For the others, it is less than 1.6 mW/mW/mA.
It's Vf voltage can reach 8.5V (when cooled at 0 °C), the maximum current - 500 mA, pulsed. Close to the hnk S06J ?


What I meant by "LED" is what sometimes when a diode fails, the diode will produce light like a LED but will fail to oscillate enough to lase. Basically what I meant was the SO6J seemed to die at strange times and didn't last as long as the BDR. Even though we are already abusing these diodes, I kept my duty cycles short(less than 15sec at the most) and I always made sure to keep the diodes cool by installing the 12mm modules in large heatsinks with thermal paste to ensure heat transfer.

Its been some time so I may be wrong but I think the BDR driver current was set to 600ma and the SOJ's drive was set 400ma. For both diodes, I used the venerable micro flex v5 powered by a good quality 18650, the micro flex is a proven driver so I don't think it was driver problems causing my issues, but who knows.

Yeah, my wife can be a B!&*# sometimes about buying stuff online, I'd rather avoid the drama.:yabbmad: To her credit, several times I have gone overboard with my other hobbies. :D

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if those diodes share crystal tech, wouldn't even surprise me if one company bought the rights another's diode and stamped their name on it.

What do you mean by yellow? Is that the color of the (Al)GaInN chips?
 

AngelG

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@barthchris: I didn't say "yellow". My text is yellow wherever I want to focus the attention. The AlGaInN crystals are not yellow. Um if I manage to do it, I'll upload a foto of one. GaN is transparent and very rigid crystal, but the worst problem with it is that it tends to develop many defects.

@All: I continue to dissect this topic, the posts with most information so far:
DTR's test results (the main reason I'm here); ARG's test results
DTRs warning for possible counterfeits; Picture of "fake" BDR209 SLED thanks to DTR who told the supplier, they have taken measures.
Death report1 at I >=650ma, Death report1 at I >=600ma
My elaboration #1, My elaboration #2

I didn't know the SLED is so small & fragile (see attachment 1). It almost hurts me to destroy such example of engineering excellence...
The QR code on my SLED reads: 77106972854101500259176171-02-06-06-032632333F5311-007-003+005+010102104003314012033F01980
This contains the NFO from the label into the following groups:
7710697285 | 4101500259176171-02-06-06-032632333F5311 | -007 | -003 | +005 |+010 | 1021040033 | 140120 | 3 | 3F01980
 

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barthchris

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OK gotcha on the yellow color thing, my browser shows the word yellow, now I understand. No need to show an image unless you want, I've seen the chip under magnification after dissecting a dead Blu-ray diode. Its crazy how much light gets produced in such a small space, even crazier that the area its emitted from is just a small fraction of the chips facet.

yeah, even though its relatively old tech, those sleds always amaze me at the engineering that goes into them. In the late 80's I bought one of the first Sony CD players for a car. Driving over a pebble would cause it to skip. Sled improvements and data buffering slowly improved to the point that optical discs cant take quite a shock before hearing a skip.

Unfortunately for us laser freaks, its looking like optical discs will be succeeded by flash memory in the not so distant future.
 
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AngelG

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@barthchris You're right - we may run out of UV lasers when the Blue-Ray tech becomes retired.

My today's Question & Answer:
How can we tell if a diode is SLD3235 or SLD3237 ?

Answer: by the differential efficiency. LPM is your friend.
To be easy, I calculated it already:
at 200 mA, SLD3235 will output ~ 190 mW optic output, while
at 200 ma, SLD3237 will output ~ 250 mW optic output.
 
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Crazlaser

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How do you know which pin is positive/negative? I'm having trouble finding specs sheet.
 

BowtieGuy

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Try this. -Link-
No guarantee on the source.

Edit: Here's another look from DTR's store on Amazon.
 
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