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FrozenGate by Avery

Introducing Survival Laser, Inc.

With respect, have you contacted Jayrob about this kit and discussed it with him? It's usually considered polite on LPF to check between sellers that no-one is stepping on their ground.

This kit looks like a straight copy to me?

If you have spoken to Jay then great but you might want to tell us this to reduce friction. Of course, anyone is free to sell anything they like but I wouldn't be happy to have my designs used without at least being informed. Just sayin'...



From a safety point of view, I would have expected laser glasses for this class of laser to be much better than a $15 pair looking similar to the non-effective pairs sold by the likes of cheap Chinese companies I could mention. I see no specifics as to protection factors or standards there. As you asked for suggestions on products then I say: 'Proper', eye protection; not just the cheapest you can find.

M
:)
 
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Sauron said:
What sparked the $50 price increase on the kits?
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The initial prices on the parts bundles were "introductory" prices as we are in the process of establishing dealers. Making product available to dealers requires a higher retail price. I have spoken to a dealer and I have an agreement to offer the parts bundles at a discount to LPF members.

I will also honor a discount on the laser parts to LPF members. Just PM me with the order before paying. Accessory prices will remain as-is for now, though I may need to adjust the retail price if the dealers decide to pick them up as well.

I will update my post on the BST thread with this info.
 
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EDC Laser said:
What part of Southern Utah are you in?
And do you have a brick & mortar store?

I'm in Vegas and I go up to St.George once a month, if your close, I would like to buy some goods.
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Cedar City. The address is listed on the website, and we have an office that is shared with my other business. You are welcome to stop by, just let me know what you would like to pick up and I will have it ready for you when you arrive.
 
Morgan said:
With respect, have you contacted Jayrob about this kit and discussed it with him? It's usually considered polite on LPF to check between sellers that no-one is stepping on their ground.

This kit looks like a straight copy to me?

If you have spoken to Jay then great but you might want to tell us this to reduce friction. Of course, anyone is free to sell anything they like but I wouldn't be happy to have my designs used without at least being informed. Just sayin'...



From a safety point of view, I would have expected laser glasses for this class of laser to be much better than a $15 pair looking similar to the non-effective pairs sold by the likes of cheap Chinese companies I could mention. I see no specifics as to protection factors or standards there. As you asked for suggestions on products then I say: 'Proper', eye protection; not just the cheapest you can find.

M
:)
Click to expand...

Morgan,

I contacted Jayrob and Yobresal before announcing the SL products. Both use the same host btw, though Yob's is unmarked. Jay also makes kits for quite a few other hosts.

IMHO the use of an "off-the-shelf" component in a competitive product is fair game. This host is available from numerous distributors. We chose to source them directly from the manufacturer without logos for the Survival Laser parts bundles. I also have a small quantity that I purchased from a distributor assuming that they would be shipped without the logo but they were not. Those are being used in the limited quantity of $50 host assemblies. If we choose to continue selling the DIY assemblies they will likely use unmarked hosts.

Jay's EZ-Focus adapter, OTOH, is apparently his design. If we ever do something like that it will look different. However, unless you own a patent, there is no protection for a product design. I own six patents which cover various aspects of our rocket motor and kit designs. Everything else is fair game.

Besides all that, the kits are quite different in a number of areas. If you look closely at the specs you will see that.

With regard to the laser safety goggles we are selling, a better question might have been "What is the OD of your goggles?" rather than cast judgment based on their outward appearance. I use them personally and so does my wife. I would never sell a product that I was not willing to use myself. Also, I have tested them with my LBII LPM and found that the level of radiation passing through them from a 1W 445nm is below the resolution of the meter. So the OD of the goggles is at least 3 based on this test. If you like I can post some photos. The only problem was that after a few seconds the goggle lens plastic was beginning to melt. :yh:
 
Survival Laser, Inc. sells 445nm laser parts bundles, laser parts and laser accessories. Combinations of these parts may be used to construct a handheld, high power (1,100mW) blue laser that can be used for numerous practical and survival applications and experimentation. A laser built from these parts is focusable and can burn paper, wood and plastic and light matches and ignite solid rocket propellant with ease.
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Yeah because everyone carries around some rocket propellant.
 
mfo said:
Yeah because everyone carries around some rocket propellant.
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What's strange in this ? ..... i usually carry around a lot of chemicals (most of the times, just cause i forgot them in the pockets of my coat :p), and some of them are more "sensitive", or dangerous, than rocket fuel compounds, sometimes ..... :p :D
 
Garoq said:
Morgan,

I contacted Jayrob and Yobresal before announcing the SL products. Both use the same host btw, though Yob's is unmarked. Jay also makes kits for quite a few other hosts.
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I'm glad you contacted them. Not sure how happy they would've been but this was the right thing to do. I'm sure Yobresal and Jayrob will have agreed they would sell the same host though and didn't just do it regardless.

Garoq said:
Besides all that, the kits are quite different in a number of areas. If you look closely at the specs you will see that.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I'm not so certain on this and although I agree in principle that off the shelf items may be considered, "Fair Game", in a true business sense, this isn't the same scenario so we'll have to disagree on this occasion. I think this is profiting off the back of others or you would have found a different host. You saw a good kit, and copied it. Using different batteries and perhaps a different driver doesn't change that. I'm afraid you should expect someone to point this out.

Garoq said:
With regard to the laser safety goggles we are selling, a better question might have been "What is the OD of your goggles?" rather than cast judgment based on their outward appearance. I use them personally and so does my wife. I would never sell a product that I was not willing to use myself. Also, I have tested them with my LBII LPM and found that the level of radiation passing through them from a 1W 445nm is below the resolution of the meter. So the OD of the goggles is at least 3 based on this test. If you like I can post some photos. The only problem was that after a few seconds the goggle lens plastic was beginning to melt. :yh:
Click to expand...

I did refer to the specs of these goggles if you look at the quote below. The problem is, is that OD is just one of the measurements that refer to the quality and protection factors. These goggles are not suitable for this laser and you have demonstrated that because they start melting after a few seconds. Although that fact alone doesn't necessarily prove they are sub standard there is no gaurantee that the ones you have, and ones someone else gets, offer the same protection levels either. To know this for sure they must have a compliance indicator.

I'm sure you know this but in the US they must comply to ANSI Z136, (other standards apply elsewhere). This should be shown on each pair of goggles to comply. If they don't have that number, they don't comply. Do they have one?

What you, and your wife, choose to use is fine but that doesn't prove anything. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. You may feel safe to use them but that doesn't mean it is safe.

Selling goggles like this without explanations of these things leaves you open to even more problems with the authorities I think. Not to mention possible action from someone who injures themselves whilst using them.

We could argue the point on whether FDA infringements are serious or not but eye safety definitely is serious. Please don't kid yourself, or your customers, that you are offering adequate protection unless you can prove it. If you can prove it then please include it on your site and any sales material, (i.e. this thread).


Morgan said:
From a safety point of view, I would have expected laser glasses for this class of laser to be much better than a $15 pair looking similar to the non-effective pairs sold by the likes of cheap Chinese companies I could mention. I see no specifics as to protection factors or standards there. As you asked for suggestions on products then I say: 'Proper', eye protection; not just the cheapest you can find.

M
:)
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to come across aggressively but these things need to be said I feel. Good luck with your sales.

M
:)
 
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Morgan said:
I'm not trying to come across aggressively but these things need to be said I feel. Good luck with your sales.

M
:)
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Well sir, you do come across quite aggressively and harshly and we'll just have to agree to disagree. :thanks:

ANSI is a strictly voluntary standard, like NFPA, that may be adopted by an authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) like OSHA, into their regulations. OSHA has adopted this standard. Per OSHA, U.S. employers must comply with ANSI standards for the protection and safety of their employees. So for example these goggles would not be approved for use in laser surgery if you were employed by a hospital (wrong nm protection anyway). ANSI standards do not apply to personal use, and personal use is not regulated by OSHA.

Survival Laser has determined that the goggles it is selling are safe for the use of our customers with the specific product being sold, in the manner recommended. As a consumer, you can choose to use or not use the goggles, it is your decision. They are for personal use only, not for commercial use.
 
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Morgan said:
I did refer to the specs of these goggles if you look at the quote below. The problem is, is that OD is just one of the measurements that refer to the quality and protection factors. These goggles are not suitable for this laser and you have demonstrated that because they start melting after a few seconds. Although that fact alone doesn't necessarily prove they are sub standard there is no gaurantee that the ones you have, and ones someone else gets, offer the same protection levels either. To know this for sure they must have a compliance indicator.

I'm sure you know this but in the US they must comply to ANSI Z136, (other standards apply elsewhere). This should be shown on each pair of goggles to comply. If they don't have that number, they don't comply. Do they have one?

What you, and your wife, choose to use is fine but that doesn't prove anything. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. You may feel safe to use them but that doesn't mean it is safe.

Selling goggles like this without explanations of these things leaves you open to even more problems with the authorities I think. Not to mention possible action from someone who injures themselves whilst using them.

We could argue the point on whether FDA infringements are serious or not but eye safety definitely is serious. Please don't kid yourself, or your customers, that you are offering adequate protection unless you can prove it. If you can prove it then please include it on your site and any sales material, (i.e. this thread).




I'm not trying to come across aggressively but these things need to be said I feel. Good luck with your sales.

M
:)
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I don't think it's a big problem if the lenses begin melting after a few seconds of direct exposure. Safety glasses and any other wearable safety items aren't meant for you to take a beating. They are typically meant for those very rare occurrences when stuff happens. An ANSI-compliant bike helmet is only meant to protect you for one crash and not a series of hits to the head. Similarly, I consider laser glasses safe if they protect you from accidental reflections or flashes of the beam. After all, who would honestly point a high-powered laser directly at their eyes just to see if the glasses can take prolonged exposure? That's stupid. Now, you could build safety glasses to do that, but they would be impractical and too expensive for the typical consumer. I could buy a bike helmet made of titanium and protect my head from multiple crashes, but again it wouldn't be cost effective, and it would also be too heavy for racing.
 
Sauron said:
I don't think it's a big problem if the lenses begin melting after a few seconds of direct exposure. Safety glasses and any other wearable safety items aren't meant for you to take a beating. They are typically meant for those very rare occurrences when stuff happens. An ANSI-compliant bike helmet is only meant to protect you for one crash and not a series of hits to the head. Similarly, I consider laser glasses safe if they protect you from accidental reflections or flashes of the beam. After all, who would honestly point a high-powered laser directly at their eyes just to see if the glasses can take prolonged exposure? That's stupid. Now, you could build safety glasses to do that, but they would be impractical and too expensive for the typical consumer. I could buy a bike helmet made of titanium and protect my head from multiple crashes, but again it wouldn't be cost effective, and it would also be too heavy for racing.
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Those are excellent points Sauron. The melting also means that they are absorbing the energy, which is a good thing! They were still offering full measurable protection during the melting process BTW, though I did not run the tests to ultimate failure.

We recommend that you never intentionally look directly into the beam or its reflection even for an instant when wearing the goggles, let alone for several seconds. It's just common sense.
 
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Well Im ordering a couple pairs of these and Ill see how long they hold up to my 1w 445 once I build it (hopefully by christmas) and get the goggles.
 
Is your company actually incorporated? or is it just a title?
 
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