Casio seems to be potting projectors

[TeufelWolf]

Its not just the projector company being difficult, legally they have to do this as part of what is called "due diligence". IN many jurisdictions (such as California) there is a legal doctrine called "deep pockets".

If you harvest diodes from a piece of equipment and build a laser, then you fry neighbor's kids eyes out THEY can sue the equipment maker. Even though you are 99.999999% at fault the manufacturer can still face punitive civil damages if they KNEW the diodes could be harvested and used in a manner that is dangerous to the general public and failed to take steps to remedy that. They can also be liable for actual damages because they have the "deep pockets" to actually pay for a retinal transplant.

Yes it sucks, but that is how tort law works in many areas.

The doctrine of due diligence requires that they take reasonable steps to protect themselves from product liability lawsuits, if they do NOT, then they can also be sued by their investors for lack of due diligence.

Now... in other countries, especially China, such doctrines are very weak or don't exist, which is why Chinese companies will sell you stuff like 1W lasers and poisoned dog food.

 

[Vaporizer]

That is such a crock. No wonder we are in the shape we are.
So, someone burns your house, using Exxon gasoline, and doesn't have the money to pay damages. You sue Exxon for making the gasoline since they have "deep pockets".
It wasn't being used for its intended purpose. That means gasoline needs a "marker" included so it only burns in situations it was intended for or they are responsible?
Give me a break. That's a jury I want to be on!

 

[ElektroFreak]

HELP PLEASE---

ii just ordered another a-140 and i asked if it was going to be from the same 'batch' That BUY.COM had when I ordered
and got my last one- on Oct 11- I have 24 hours to cancell the order-- so what I am =asking is--Has anyone gotten one from Buy.com(Calf.) in the last 3 weeks that was potted-- my last one did have the tri-wing screws and a tad more lock-tite on the threads but I had no probs , however if the one I just ordered has the array potted I would maybe be wanting to return it- which will cost me the return shipping-- I know that one member just got one from Newegg that was potted and he returned is a defective- Also the cost for this one went up by 50+$ -- which I will have to pass on to my customers in the form of a 2$ increase- but I would be pissed if I had to deal with a potted array--- anybody got info on this??

thanks Hak

am starting a new thread with this same question in it and plz forgive me for double posting -but I need feedback on this question ASAP

TBH I have yet to see anything other than hearsay regarding potted projectors. No pics, no firsthand accounts (other than one person), no one else has had that problem that I've seen. I could have missed something of course, but to my knowledge that is how things stand.

 

[MojoLA]

I agree, we don't have any proof or first-hand accounts that the projectors are any different than before. We will soon, but not yet.

And Hakzaw, you can always return the projector. You may be out $50 shipping, but that's the cost of taking a risk. If you want a risk-free purchase, then you'll have to wait until it's confirmed that the new batch of projectors is potted or not.

 

[TeufelWolf]

That is such a crock. No wonder we are in the shape we are.
So, someone burns your house, using Exxon gasoline, and doesn't have the money to pay damages. You sue Exxon for making the gasoline since they have "deep pockets".
It wasn't being used for its intended purpose. That means gasoline needs a "marker" included so it only burns in situations it was intended for or they are responsible?
Give me a break. That's a jury I want to be on!

It happens with gun manufacturers, they get sued because dumb people use guns for dumb things. Some mail order knife companies will not sell knives to residents of California because they can be sued if that knife is used in a crime.

Congress can exempt or limit certain industries from liability. For example, you can't sue a cellphone company if you get brain cancer, and you can't sue power companies if you get cancer from living under a high tension power transmission line.

I'm not defending it, but you have to understand this to know why C... is doing what they are doing. It costs money to add special screws and epoxy, there is zero short term benefit in doing that. If they are sued by someone who is blinded by a homebrew laser they have a defense, they can show they did due diligence and acted as a "Good Corporate Citizen" to try and keep us from making lasers from their equipment.

Litigiousness is part of how our culture regulates the business community in the US and EU. In other cultures corporate citizens often have broad immunity, which is why many companies prefer to operate dangerous processes in places like Vietnam or Mexico.

 

[hakzaw1]

I agree, we don't have any proof or first-hand accounts that the projectors are any different than before. We will soon, but not yet.

And Hakzaw, you can always return the projector. You may be out $50 shipping, but that's the cost of taking a risk. If you want a risk-free purchase, then you'll have to wait until it's confirmed that the new batch of projectors is potted or not.

*************************************************************************

Too late now- order is in-- sales rep at bydotcom assured me it would be the same as the one I got three weeks ago- but I am not sure he was sure. I will know in 5 days-

BTW they upped the price on 140s by 50+$-- just in time for Xmas I guess.
Another LPFer just got 140s from N#w#gg and it was NOT potted-- so maybe that report was bogus--? a poser from Clapio raining on a parade mayhaps??

TY to all for the input-

I will post here what i see when I do the diode-ectomy.

 

[Vaporizer]

TeufelWolf,
I understand you arent defending it. It's just the more I think abt it, the more ridiculous situations I come up with.

hakzaw1,
I find it hard to believe they will seal them in in such a way they cannot be removed. If 1 or 2 fail they cannot expect a customer to purchase a new unit. Deterrent screws I could see as a CYA. Not much more. Go Dremel!

 

[DTR]

As you guys may have seen I received their newest model today fresh from the factory according to the person I talked to at projectorpeople.com. If they were potting them it should have had it but it did not. So at this point I think somebody was selling us pork pies and a bag of trout.

http://laserpointerforums.com/f65/xj-a150-news-57275-7.html#post813359

 

[TeufelWolf]

hakzaw1,
I find it hard to believe they will seal them in in such a way they cannot be removed. If 1 or 2 fail they cannot expect a customer to purchase a new unit. Deterrent screws I could see as a CYA. Not much more. Go Dremel!

I'm very cynical, and I could see a company doing that and just charging a customer to replace the entire array if one diode fails, and then destroying the entire array.

Consider the crap that Apple pulls with the ipods, and other icrap

 

[Bionic-Badger]

I find it hard to believe they will seal them in in such a way they cannot be removed. If 1 or 2 fail they cannot expect a customer to purchase a new unit. Deterrent screws I could see as a CYA. Not much more. Go Dremel!

Yes they can and do expect that. What would the customer even do? Pop out the diode array, test and desolder the faulty diodes and then replace them with some 445nm diodes they bought from a laser forum? Yeah right! It's not a lamp or even a lamp ballast. "Oh look, the top-row, 4th down diode isn't working when I shine its blinding light on the wall!" As a company you wouldn't even want regular people to be servicing that component of the device. The diodes are already designed to last a lot longer than those lamp-based projectors, so the customer has already purchased the projector for its longevity.

I'm actually surprised that the laser projector manufacturer made that diode array accessible at all. I would've never added a door to the outside of the projector, which would only encourage easy access to the diode array. It's practically negligent that the manufacturer designed the projector such that the laser array can be powered up while being unseated from the projector unit at all!

 

[Vaporizer]

Yes they can and do expect that.

I take it you are speaking for C? Inside information?

No, the customer wouldn't. Geesh.....
C doesn't have repair centers for these units? That doesn't seem very profitable for them. Dell charges more for labor than the parts they put in.
So, if a unit becomes off color due to a few diodes failing they expect the customer to chuck it in the garbage and buy a new unit? All because a small % of people buy them to rip them apart for the diodes? That's giving the laser community the major part of their business which I hardly doubt. If that is true, we better learn where to dumpster dive and get them for free. Or do they have a "crush on disposal" clause the customer agrees to also?
Kinda hard to swallow that one BB.
Keep posting ideas for them to read and use. That always helps a lot. I would be surprised if they didn't have ppl reading areas like this for information.

Apple ? I don't care for Apple and never owned any of their products AFAIK. Icrap pretty well describes their stuff from what I read.

 

[Bionic-Badger]

No, the customer wouldn't. Geesh.....
C doesn't have repair centers for these units? That doesn't seem very profitable for them. Dell charges more for labor than the parts they put in.
So, if a unit becomes off color due to a few diodes failing they expect the customer to chuck it in the garbage and buy a new unit? All because a small % of people buy them to rip them apart for the diodes? That's giving the laser community the major part of their business which I hardly doubt. If that is true, we better learn where to dumpster dive and get them for free. Or do they have a "crush on disposal" clause the customer agrees to also?
Kinda hard to swallow that one BB.

Remember that we're talking about a laser-based projector here, not a traditional mercury-lamp projector. Replacing the diode array is not like replacing a lamp; it's more akin to replacing the ballast in a regular projector, which is usually not made to be user serviceable, and lasts far longer than the lamp. When the ballast goes, quite often the suggestion is to just get a new projector. It's sad but true. By the time the ballast goes out, the projector is so old and out of warranty that it isn't worth the cost to have it serviced, if you can find the parts.

The same kind of thing with these laser-based projectors, only these are not made to work with replaceable lamps. The diode array is the "lamp," and designed for longevity; it's why people buy these projectors in the first place. Sure, if they burn out within the first 3 years/6000hrs you can send them back for repair or replacement, but they're supposed to last to about 20,000 hours. It may even be the fluorescent wheel that gives up the ghost before the diodes. Compare that to what you'd spend replacing your $300 low-lumen lamp every 2000 hours with a regular projector and you're already looking at a cost savings on the lifetime of your $800 projector--even if it dies right after its 6000 hour warranty is up. Hell, by the time you'd reasonably get around to replacing the projector diode array, it'd cost you less to just buy a new one.

Keep posting ideas for them to read and use. That always helps a lot. I would be surprised if they didn't have ppl reading areas like this for information.

If the manufacturer is so incompetent that it must rely on red-teaming members of laser forums for their design direction, we have nothing to worry about.

 

[hakzaw1]

I agree w/BB
Companies routinely replace items rather than repair- good for the Co. image- quicker resolution and a much happier customer in the long run.

AixiZ Lasers sometimes just takes the word of a customer and replaces items without the need to return the defective/broken one. Especialy if that customer is a repeat customer.

hk

 

[Vaporizer]

If the manufacturer is so incompetent that it must rely on red-teaming members of laser forums for their design direction, we have nothing to worry about.

Well, in the case of SE & NJoy vs FDA the FDA quoted directly from the forums of users, using their own statements, and it is now in Appeals of the Supreme Court thanks to those quotes. The forum Admins and mods asked that nothing negative be posted, but the constant influx of newbies wasn't controllable with their comments. They(the FDA) have the "deep pockets" on their side and the FDA cannot be sued, even monetary damages.

I see laserists as mosquitoes at Disney World. They are a pest that isn't wanted, but the bite from one with a disease would be trouble they don't want.

We could banter "what ifs" till the cows come home, but it will be what it will be.
~S~

 

[Bionic-Badger]

Re: ***** seems to be potting projectors

Well, in the case of SE & NJoy vs FDA the FDA quoted directly from the forums of users, using their own statements, and it is now in Appeals of the Supreme Court thanks to those quotes. The forum Admins and mods asked that nothing negative be posted, but the constant influx of newbies wasn't controllable with their comments. They(the FDA) have the "deep pockets" on their side and the FDA cannot be sued, even monetary damages.

I haven't read anything related to that, got a link?

 

[Vaporizer]

Re: ***** seems to be potting projectors

Sure, here is where the many thousand post 1st thread was stopped, a new one started, and then they started censoring comments to boot. It was getting way out of hand.
I think the request for no negative info and the FDA using direct quotes and such is in both parts. Its a loooooooooong read.
SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

The FDA lost round one with Judge Leon, filed an appeal, and went on holding businesses product from China, in customs, driving them out of business with nothing to sell. They had no jurisdiction to do this and when a suit was sought against the FDA it was discovered they cannot be sued for damages, real or monetary, under any circumstances. They can spend all the tax $'s and backers $ they want and never lose. The only thing you can win from them is the right to continue on.