Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

[jcranmer]

Shot him a PM with a link to this thread.

I did. I just want to make sure he was aware of the thread and had a chance to respond if he wanted to.

 

[swimminsurfer256]

Here's my side of this story:

I needed some spare cash to buy a laptop so I can work in places outside my room so I decided to sell the laser. I sold it as a person selling a personal item *used*, not as a business selling a device. I offered no warranty or returns. I purchased full price insurance and would've even taken the laser back if it arrived DOA but it didn't arrive DOA.

I used it as a consumer using a product. When I said "USED ITEM" I wasn't thinking of the word-for-word eBay definition -- I was going by the fact that I had used the item. I'm not going to do a full retail seller test run on an item that I was using as a consumer myself. It "worked great" every single time I used it without exception. I've already used the cash to purchase a laptop and I knew I wouldn't have the money to refund which is why I didn't offer returns or refunds (except in the extreme case of a DOA -- also the reason for me purchasing insurance).

I don't feel good about this situation, but there really isn't anything I can do about it.. I can't take a laser back that was killed after you used it for almost an hour straight especially after I didn't offer refunds or returns and I don't have the money to refund it anymore (I used it to get a laptop!) and was selling it as a used item!

 

[rhd]

Can I ask a question I truly don't know the answer to?

You mentioned that swim said it was your fault for not looking up what a proper duty cycle would have been. I don't know much about argons -

- if you HAD looked up that information, would 45 minutes actually have been too long?

 

[swimminsurfer256]

Can I ask a question I truly don't know the answer to?

You mentioned that swim said it was your fault for not looking up what a proper duty cycle would have been. I don't know much about argons -

- if you HAD looked up that information, would 45 minutes actually have been too long?

As far as I know, there isn't an official duty cycle for Argons but they do get really hot. I would think it to be common sense to turn it off and let it rest if the exhaust air became really really hot.


I don't really know TBH and that's why I said I didn't know when he asked me about any duty cycle.

 

[jcranmer]

I run mine for a full hour at one time without a problem. Of course I always make sure the fan is running. If for some reason the fan were to die I wouldn't expect an argon to last more then a few moments. They generate a tremendous amount of heat.

 

[rhd]

It's a tough situation you guys are in. I think the reality is that this is "nobody's fault". Suppose something dies, and:

1) Nobody had any way to foresee it,
2) Nobody should have had any way to foresee it, and
3) Nobody themselves caused it,

Then nobody is "at fault". Applying that to the present situation:

1) Swim says there was no sign of an impending future problem. ZDark also presumably didn't notice any sort of audible/visible/physical sign of an impending future problem during the first 20 or 30 minutes that it worked upon receipt either. If he had, he would have turned it off. So I think it's fair to say that nobody had reason to foresee the death.

2) The question then becomes, should Swim have done some better testing on his end? Would a 45 minute test have revealed the impending death (or triggered it) on his end. In other words, what is a reasonable test duration in order to be able to say that an Argon "works great".

I don't know the answer to this. It sounds like perhaps neither ZDarn nor Swim really knew what an appropriate set of tests to conduct or to request be conducted, would be. That's not a knock on either of you - I wouldn't know either. At the very least though, it seems that neither party should have had any way to foresee the upcoming death. Swim didn't believe that a 45 minute test was the "appropriate test duration", and ZDark didn't request that a 45 minute test be conducted. I don't think Swim can be said willfully blind here.

3) Nobody themselves caused it. It doesn't sound like ZDark's usage of the laser was irresponsible or incorrect.

So - nobody is "at fault". But there's still the question of how to apportion the loss. Even though neither party is at fault, there's still a monetary loss to distribute. When does the risk of a no-fault death transfer from one owner to another? Does it transfer upon shipment? Upon receipt? Upon the expiration of a reasonable test period?
- I'll leave that to others to discuss. It's probably largely a function of each transaction, and the nature of your particular exchange.

 

[swimminsurfer256]

I guess in summary this is how I see it: I sold a "used" item that "worked great" every single time I used it. I offered no return or refund policy because I knew I'd be spending the money on a big purchase (which I stated in the post) and wouldn't have the money to refund. When ZDarkAzn got the laser it worked, i.e. it wasn't DOA. I don't know enough about lasers (especially argon lasers) to sabotage it somehow... I also don't know how ZDark treated the laser (operating conditions, turning the device off before the fan stopped, etc.).

It doesn't seem fair for me to have to accept a return and refund after 1) I didn't offer one and 2) I did everything I said I did/would do correctly and without fail.

 

[spyrorocks]

I guess the question comes, what if it stopped working after 3 days? a week? a month? at what point would the buyer here feel that swim is not responsible for a laser that he sold with no warranty and no returns accepted? It was guaranteed non-DOA, which was how it was delivered. Swim fulfilled his part of the deal, and stuck by his guarantees.

 

[daguin]

If an argon laser's components are all "up to spec" there is no "duty cycle"

Since this is a "self-contained" laser, I imagine that the components are all up to spec.

Peace,
dave

 

[Elektrotechniker]

I guess the question comes, what if it stopped working after 3 days? a week? a month? at what point would the buyer here feel that swim is not responsible for a laser that he sold with no warranty and no returns accepted? It was guaranteed non-DOA, which was how it was delivered. Swim fulfilled his part of the deal, and stuck by his guarantees.

I +1 repped you for this post. Good point. HOWEVER, someone COULD say that the laser has been sold malfunctioning. For example, if I sold a 1.2 W 445nm laser to someone and before shipping , somehow, the diode was damaged by using the laser, or even during shipping for whatever reason, then who would be to blame? This might not be the best way to describe what I'm thinking but I guess you get the point. I really can't take any side here. It's one of those times, when you can't really blame either of the 2 parties.

 

[ARG]

zdark, have you tried to fix it, or look into what is wrong with it? It may just be a simple fix...

 

[zdarkazn]

It's a tough situation you guys are in. I think the reality is that this is "nobody's fault". Suppose something dies, and:

1) Nobody had any way to foresee it,
2) Nobody should have had any way to foresee it, and
3) Nobody themselves caused it,

Then nobody is "at fault". Applying that to the present situation:

1) Swim says there was no sign of an impending future problem. ZDark also presumably didn't notice any sort of audible/visible/physical sign of an impending future problem during the first 20 or 30 minutes that it worked upon receipt either. If he had, he would have turned it off. So I think it's fair to say that nobody had reason to foresee the death.

2) The question then becomes, should Swim have done some better testing on his end? Would a 45 minute test have revealed the impending death (or triggered it) on his end. In other words, what is a reasonable test duration in order to be able to say that an Argon "works great".

I don't know the answer to this. It sounds like perhaps neither ZDarn nor Swim really knew what an appropriate set of tests to conduct or to request be conducted, would be. That's not a knock on either of you - I wouldn't know either. At the very least though, it seems that neither party should have had any way to foresee the upcoming death. Swim didn't believe that a 45 minute test was the "appropriate test duration", and ZDark didn't request that a 45 minute test be conducted. I don't think Swim can be said willfully blind here.

3) Nobody themselves caused it. It doesn't sound like ZDark's usage of the laser was irresponsible or incorrect.

So - nobody is "at fault". But there's still the question of how to apportion the loss. Even though neither party is at fault, there's still a monetary loss to distribute. When does the risk of a no-fault death transfer from one owner to another? Does it transfer upon shipment? Upon receipt? Upon the expiration of a reasonable test period?
- I'll leave that to others to discuss. It's probably largely a function of each transaction, and the nature of your particular exchange.

With regards to everything else, I believe that it would be fine if each person takes a $200 loss, since everyone seems to agree that no one is at fault. Sent swimmin a PM.

 

[Ghostchrome]

So have you tried taking a look inside at all? $400 bucks is a tough pill to swallow, but come on dude, it was running fine until it pooped out.

 

[spyrorocks]

I +1 repped you for this post. Good point. HOWEVER, someone COULD say that the laser has been sold malfunctioning. For example, if I sold a 1.2 W 445nm laser to someone and before shipping , somehow, the diode was damaged by using the laser, or even during shipping for whatever reason, then who would be to blame? This might not be the best way to describe what I'm thinking but I guess you get the point. I really can't take any side here. It's one of those times, when you can't really blame either of the 2 parties.

There is a possibility it could be an issue with damage during shipping. I suggest exploring the option of getting some money out of the insurance, but usps is probably hell to deal with on that.

 

[Ghostchrome]

There is a possibility it could be an issue with damage during shipping. I suggest exploring the option of getting some money out of the insurance, but usps is probably hell to dead with on that.

Yeah, for sure try to get the shipping company to pay insurance. It could be that something got jiggled a bit too vigorously.

 

[spyrorocks]

Don't think for a second usps will let go of any money, you will probably have to fight them like crazy to get anything out of them.