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FrozenGate by Avery

8X Diode Murder fund

Great, some input... :yh:

Bryce and Krutz, i do believe i should proceed more cautiously with the rest of the diodes, because while i know (almost) everyone wants to see extreme powers from their 8x, the purpose of the experiment was to find a "safe" power. Or at the very least try to figure out how long 8x's can survive at the powers we are already setting them to...

We don't know what a "safe" power for 8x's is yet, so there is no point in pushing the other 11 diodes to dangerous levels, just because we see them on the forum, when the exact same plot can be made without even going above the diode's CW ratings! Why endanger them for no good reason, even if it's just for a short time? Datasheets say you shouldn't even do it for milliseconds!


Maybe the future 8x owner from the 8x Mini "GB" wants to run it safelly (and not just "safelly") for a long time, like in a scanner! Additionally, a diode pushed to 500mW during plotting and then cycled at 400mW for a lifetime test, could show worse resuts than if it was never pushed above 400mW in the first place. In that case, the plotting to 500mW+ could skew the results of the 400mW cycler experiment!

That's why i decided, that pushing these diodes in small steps ABOVE their final power - just to draw a straight line - would be stupid, dangerous and unfair to the final owner...
And it would not even tell us anything we can't find out with three completelly harmless steps (Ith + two different powers for slope efficiency, aka differential efficiency)..



Basically i'd like to find a power, where a diode can survive a certain decent amount of hours (on average), where it could last as a laser pointer for a while (like a year of normal use)...

From that "average", people could then further decide, if half as many hours, or even just a quarter is also good enough, if they badly want even more power...


During the "4x = 6x GB" i cycled a 4x diode at ~150mW till death, and it lasted almost 140h or so (don't remember exactly).. I calculated that this would translate into years of use as a pointer - that's why i'd like to find a power where the 8x's would survive for 100-150h.. And i'd love that to be ~400mW..

Now that would be the perfect scenario IMHO. If i get that i'm happy! However i fear i won't, since old 8x's at this powers are already developing kinks! And no one really knows how many hours they have on them. :undecided:



BTW, as far as pushing them to 360mA when testing, I don't think it's a good idea. Here's how I see it, if we assume that improved optics don't play a role (can I assume that? Well I just did), then an 8x would theoretically be 8/6 times more powerful than a 6x. And we usually run GGW's at like maybe 200mA max? So then multiply by 8/6, and you get 267mA. However if these are more rugged or more efficient, then I see why they are being pushed higher.

BTW, I'm totally talking out of my ass here, please correct me (I need to learn!)

I wanted to ask where you got 8/6 times.. Realized what a stupid question that would be, while typing it
(i was trying to figure out how you calculated it instead of just looking at the numbers :crackup:)... :yabbem:

I'm working on the following premise: (based on info from Larry's 12x thread)
- 6x's require 100-105mW CW / 200-210mW Pulsed (altho this was not shown there, it was guesstimated for a while and can be assumed if the rest is correct)
- 8x's require 120-125mW CW / 240-250mW Pulsed
- 12x's require 150mW CW / 300mW Pulsed
- 12x's WILL require 225mW CW / 450mW Pulsed (for more layers?)



I couldn't decide between 105-125mW CW for 6x's for a long time, and in the beginning i was even thinking that 8x's could be 150mW CW or more, since i knew people were setting them to 400-500mW! But then i saw the above info LarryDWF posted in the 12x thread, where an 8x diode was shown as requiring 240-250mW! That was when i got worried!


If your calculation was correct however, it would suggest:
- 8/6 x 105mW = 140mW CW / 280mW Pulsed..
But diode manufacturers are probably gonna make (or have made) the next step 150mW/300mW...

However 150mW CW / 300mW Pulsed was presented in the 12x thread for the first 12x's! :thinking:



So let's go with the info from the manufacturer's reports (6x = 105mW, 8x = 125mW) first:
- If this info is correct, it would mean we can push good 6x's to their pulsed power even after a plastic lens!
- We know they last 1 year of my (ab)use there, or several years of normal use (varying from diode to diode of course, but i haven't lost a normal or high efficiency 6x yet, except the one that was abused on purpose)!
- We also know their raw power is around 30% higher, than after plastic lenses (depending on wavelength), so we are actually pushing them to some ~260mW, when seeing 200mW after plastics (with some freaks even more - up to 234mW after plastics = ~290mW raw power)!

So we are pushing them to 2.6x or even 3x (with freaks) their rated CW power! And they oblige...


Let's apply the same factors to the above info:
- 125mW x 2.6 = 325mW
- 125mW x 3.0 = 375mW

And that's raw power, the rest is up to the lenses...


Now assume your calculation (8/6x factor) was correct:
- 140mW x 2.6 = 364mW / - 150mW x 2.6 = 390mW
- 140mW x 3.0 = 420mW / - 150mW x 3.0 = 450mW



The main problem is that we never relly know which diodes we are dealing with. Luckily we can at least test how long they last at different powers...


Otherwise, i wonder how many people realize, that we are already pushing 8x diodes with electrical powers higher than open cans are exposed to!
Sure, the current is lower, at "only" 300mA, but they have a higher Vf and that also matters, when it comes to power (P = U x I)!

0.3A x 5.6V = 1.68W = 0.54A x 3.1V

Setting a diode with a Vf of 5.6V to 300mA is the same as setting an open can to 540mA (since open cans have a Vf of 3.1V)!

If the info from the 12x thread is correct, it's a miracle they are surviving at all. But fact is - THEY ARE?!? Hopefully now we'll also figure out HOW LONG...



doing a simple 3 point calculation on all of them first sounds good, for finding the weakest two. without pushing too high, yet.
i agree, cycle the first one at 400mW, if it looks good, the second one at 500mW after optics? i would think this is a magic number for many! :-)

Yes, that's what i was thinking yesterday, explained why in more detail above, and that's how i'll do it from now on.

- Simple three point test, just to draw a line and find the weakest two.
- Do a confirmation of the graph on the Diode Analyzer before the plot, to make sure there is no kink there (but WITHOUT going over the power the diode is to be cycled at!)...
- Cycle the first diode to death at 400mW.
- Decide how to proceed based on the results of the first experiment.
- Diodes going to other buyers will only be plotted to the powers the buyers will want from their diode - they will be able to base their decisions on the result of the experiment...


I realize 500mW is the magic number for many people here. Even tho i'd be perfectly happy with 400! But if the results of the first murder allow it, we can test the second one at a higher power of course.



Are you ready to compare them to the 12x's yet, Igor? :na:

Why are you sending one my way? Don't tease me for no good reason... :yh:
Otherwise, i am ready, and want to test one as soon as we can get our hands on them... :evil:

Does anyone (= you) have a Japanese friend yet? :na:
 
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I actually do know someone in Japan. My friend hosted him as a foreign exchange student for six weeks. Really nice guy. I'm friends with him on Facebook and can get in touch with him fairly easily, if we pretty seriously want to get hold of some 12X's.

-Trevor
 
Yea Igor, I'm not sure that number, 8/6, is correct. My thinking was, if the 8x can write 33.33% faster, then the diode should be 33.33% more powerful (ignoring any improved optics in the sled). I really have no idea if this is correct or not. But if you just apply some logic, it doesn't make since for these to be twice as powerful as a GGW, which we seem to get like around 250mW with a 405-g-1 lens. IMO, asking for 500mW out of these diodes is asking too much. I was thinking more like 300-350mW to be honest. But hopefully the murder results will show that it can last over 100 hours at 400mW. I plan on having mine set at whatever power will give 100 hours of diode life.
 
I actually do know someone in Japan. My friend hosted him as a foreign exchange student for six weeks. Really nice guy. I'm friends with him on Facebook and can get in touch with him fairly easily, if we pretty seriously want to get hold of some 12X's.

-Trevor

Yes we do? :angel:

Well actually, personally i'm in no rush, this "little" project here, and other work is enough to keep me occupied for a while.

But eventually, if they don't appear "here" (= not here, in US i mean) within a month or so, i would consider ordering through someone from Japan if only i knew someone there!
 
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But eventually, if they don't appear "here" (= not here, in US i mean) within a month or so, i would consider ordering through someone from Japan if only i knew someone there!

They are in the Loading docks here now. The software is a week behind them. The official release date is the 21st.

<Deja Vu>

<or was the Vuja De?>

Peace,
dave
 
They are in the Loading docks here now. The software is a week behind them. The official release date is the 21st.

Software?!?

Why do 12x drives need software? I thought they just need good drivers.. :thinking:

Not necessarily MicroSoft aprooved either... :angel:
 
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Software?!?

Why do 12x drives need software? I thought they just need good drivers.. :thinking:
Not necessarily MicroSoft aprooved either... :angel:

I told him that "My application does not require the software." :whistle:

Peace,
dave
 
You said you have one already right? Are you sending it to Igor for testing?

He is getting one (i think), and he is gonna "torture" it himself..

Why would anyone send their first 12x diode to anyone else?!? :thinking:


Besides, unless it was to be sacrificed, all i could do would be a plot. Dave makes his own plots...
Sacrificing would require a 12x Murder Fund... :angel:
 
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Too soon to say, but they look good.

Are you ready to compare them to the 12x's yet, Igor? :na:

Peace,
dave

Oops, I must have glanced over this too quick and read it wrong. Thought it said, "are YOU ready to compare them". My mistake :)
 
I can't wait to see how much power these things will produce. I'm hoping at least 700mws
 
..or a reliable 500mw..?
but wow, didnt think it really would get going that quick, i expected the first 12x tested in 2010..

manuel
 
I'd be happy with 1/2 watt of long life. 700mW is scary. I'd be afraid to point that around in the house.
 





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