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FrozenGate by Avery

Your opinion on USA Free Health Care

mfo said:
Exactly how I feel. Remember last year how everyone was judging his first 100 days? I mean how pathetic was that? I really hate the people in this country sometimes. Now I know why we're viewed as spoiled Americans by the rest of the globe.
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To be honest, I don't think people really should've been expecting any change from Obama anyway, as far as the things Bush did. Obama supported, even voting in favor of, MANY of Bush's most controversial policies. Warrantless wiretapping? Obama supported it, voting for Bush's bill in the senate. Wars? Obama increased troop levels in Afghanistan. Oil drilling? Obama just opened up offshore areas in multiple places. Don't Ask, Don't Tell? Obama hasn't touched it. Spending? He doubled-down on Bush's record deficits, making his own record deficits. Being the consummate politician and using political trickery to get agenda passed? Zero difference between them. Gitmo? Still open.

In the immortal words of Roger Daltrey of The Who, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Obama had already broken a massive campaign promise before he was even elected, I don't know why people expected any different after he was elected.
 





ossumguywill said:
I was younger and didn't really care the last time he got elected, but didn't the general public actually not give him the majority of votes while the house of representatives ended up electing him or something? Sorry if I got that wrong.
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The second election was rigged, that much I know for a fact, yet no one did anything about it. It turned out people that had been dead for years in Florida voted for Bush.
 
ossumguywill said:
I was younger and didn't really care the last time he got elected, but didn't the general public actually not give him the majority of votes while the house of representatives ended up electing him or something? Sorry if I got that wrong.
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No. He won against Gore via the electoral college without a majority in the popular vote, but he won against Kerry with majorities in both the electoral college and popular vote.

ossumguywill said:
Yeah, there's absolutely no side effect to being gay. It shouldn't matter if you're gay when you get chosen for a job, even the military. People might say that it's distracting to other men or something, but are women in the military not distracting to straight men? I don't care if you're pagan, christian, straight, gay, or furry as long as you don't force it on me. That's why I hate groups like the westborough baptist church, they walk around and force their hateful views on people, not to mention their own impressionable kids.
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Any "distraction" BS is just that in the military, BS. Men and women are already having sex in the military, and just because a guy likes guys doesn't mean he wants to jump every guy he sees, just like a guy who likes women doesn't want to jump every woman he sees.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell needs to end, and it's a flippin' shame Obama hasn't done it yet.
 
It bugs me when people say, "I would never go on welfare" or "I would never collect unemployment." as if to justify their opinion that welfare only serves to keep the crackheads fed. I know plently of people who at one time or another took advantage of the welfare system for a few weeks/months when they lost jobs or lost apartments and needed to eat. Not everyone has parents or friends to fall back on in times of need. I think there needs to be better accountability for the people collecting welfare but at the same time i don't want to make more people homeless/starving. Also, in Massachusetts i don't believe they actually give cash or stamps as payments anymore. You are provided with a welfare "credit card" to purchase items. People still find ways to get around this though. I've heard of people purchasing beer & cigaretts at certain "mom & pop" type stores and also of people selling their food to people at a discount in order to obtain cash.
 
Moebius said:
It bugs me when people say, "I would never go on welfare" or "I would never collect unemployment." as if to justify their opinion that welfare only serves to keep the crackheads fed. I know plently of people who at one time or another took advantage of the welfare system for a few weeks/months when they lost jobs or lost apartments and needed to eat. Not everyone has parents or friends to fall back on in times of need. I think there needs to be better accountability for the people collecting welfare but at the same time i don't want to make more people homeless/starving. Also, in Massachusetts i don't believe they actually give cash or stamps as payments anymore. You are provided with a welfare "credit card" to purchase items. People still find ways to get around this though. I've heard of people purchasing beer & cigaretts at certain "mom & pop" type stores and also of people selling their food to people at a discount in order to obtain cash.
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Funny that you mention that. I'm thinking that they can't make fun of those who need it. That would be down right unacceptable.
 
pullbangdead said:
Oh, but we DO know. I know, that if I go buy insurance now, I can buy a catastrophic plan that will save me money, and I know that if I go buy insurance 5 years from now, I will not be able to buy that plan, and instead will have to buy a larger, more expensive plan. What's up for discussion about my scenario?

Also, we know another area where one of 2 things will happen in the next 5 years. Either 1) Medicare/Medicaid funding will be cut by over $500billion, OR 2) the deficit/debt will go up by another $500billion as a direct result of this bill. This is also not up for debate, it has been signed into law. Either the debt goes up a lot, or Medicare/Medicaid gets cut by a lot. Pick one. (There is, admittedly, a 3rd option, where-in tax receipts are increased by over $500billion, but I don't see that one happening.)

Look, it's not the end of the world, I know that I'll be fine in the end. I can make my own way, and I'll come out fine in the end, I know it. I don't think Obama is any of those things you listed (especially since there were actually a few black Nazis, but that's beside the point), except a very liberal president who rode a wave anti-Bush sentiment into the presidency. I do think he's a bit liberal in many ways, but is still a lot like Bush in many ways, and I don't agree with many of his ideas. I do agree with many of them though.

As far as this bill, is the total cost of it not an issue to you? Just how massive the cost of this bill is, that doesn't concern you? It's one of the largest bills ever, and affects a full 1/6 of the US economy, but you're not concerned? I don't have any irrational fears like those you mentioned, but I can rationally look at what's in this bill, and I can see how it negatively affects me and, in my opinion, negatively affects the country.
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Your argument is rational, but too early and too self centered IMO. You're looking at all the negative aspects, dwelling on them and ignoring any possible benefits this new system might have. Almost everything has negative aspects. You're also arguing this as if it's set in stone, finalized and now we all just have to suck it up. I feel the need to look at the big picture and weigh the pros and cons from an objective viewpoint because how it affects me is a trivial concern compared to how it affects the rest of the population. Personally I believe that public healthcare will help many people.... and probably not help some others, but I think the benefits outweigh the cost. I can tell you with perfect certainty that the insurance and pharmaceutical companies that currently run the show could give two shits about the economy, the government, or you and I. IMO it's definitely time to try something else.

And sure I'm concerned about the cost, but here's the thing: COST IS PARTIALLY AN ILLUSION. We spend our entire lives these days living on imaginary money. The entire global economy is based primarily on paper and electronic wealth. Paper is worthless, but using paper money and credit as currency allows for far more economic flexibility than using land, possessions, gold, or jewels for all transactions. My finances and the economy of the USA will flex to meet the demand the same as we always have. That's where I'm coming from.

And as a final, if small, note: Some of the mudslinging, wild accusations and threats that have been tossed around throughout the national debate on this subject make me almost ashamed to be American. Political debate such as we've been having here in this thread is as American as apple pie, but the way many of our citizens have been behaving is pathetic. Some of the violent acts that I've heard people discussing over this are in reality an absolute last resort to overthrow true tyranny, not part of a bitchfest about a perceived financial disadvantage. The name calling and hatred are just childish. That whole aspect of this thing just PISSES ME OFF like you wouldn't believe.
 
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mfo said:





Religious freaks need to stop forcing their views onto everyone else in regards to gay marriage. If you don't want gay people to get married, then disallowing it in a catholic church (per say) is fine, since that does go against the bible. However, there's nothing wrong with them walking into city hall and having a judge or someone with the power to marry them.

Plenty of heterosexual couples get married all of the time and their marriages end up in divorce. What do we have to lose by letting a gay couple get married? Nothing. How is a gay couple getting married going to affect you? In no way at all.

This country really needs to get it's priorities straight and start caring about shit that actually matters, not gay marriage.
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Just one thing...

You have to consider that "marriage" is a Christian ceremony. Not just some celebration to act through. And marriage as defined by the Bible, is the holy union of the man and the woman. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else.

Quite frankly, I don't know why gay 'couples' really want to get married. Is it necessary for them to be happy with? Absolutely not. I don't care if someone wants to go and be gay, but to go to a church and expect to be allowed through a religious ceremony (of which they are not even a part of) is kind of a silly thing do.

So while us "religious freaks" are out and about "forcing" our "views" on others, just keep that in mind. Its not a view, and its not something for a judge to appoint.

That is all!
 
Meatball said:
Just one thing...

You have to consider that "marriage" is a Christian ceremony. Not just some celebration to act through. And marriage as defined by the Bible, is the holy union of the man and the woman. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else.

Quite frankly, I don't know why gay 'couples' really want to get married. Is it necessary for them to be happy with? Absolutely not. I don't care if someone wants to go and be gay, but to go to a church and expect to be allowed through a religious ceremony (of which they are not even a part of) is kind of a silly thing do.

So while us "religious freaks" are out and about "forcing" our "views" on others, just keep that in mind. Its not a view, and its not something for a judge to appoint.

That is all!
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Dear lord, what a completely ethnocentric point of view.

Marriage predates recorded history, and therefore predates christianity by thousands of years. Hammurabi's Code covers marriage, and it was recorded 2000 years before Jesus. How can marriage possibly be a christian idea when it was being done so long before christianity existed, and was being done in areas that were completely isolated from christianity even after Jesus?

In short, marriage is NOT a christian ceremony, although christianity does include a marriage ceremony. Most every other religion out there has some form of marriage, including judaism, buddhism, islam, and many others. It's also a civil, secular matter: one can be married outside a church, and your wedding can be completely secular without a hint of religion included in it. Why do you think weddings have to be held in churches? Do you think jewish or muslim weddings in the US are any less valid, or even secular weddings at the county courthouse done by a magistrate?

And why do gay couples want to get married? Well why do straight people want to get married? It makes little sense for straight people to get married either, in many cases. It's 2 people (or more in many religions) who want to commit themselves to one another, for many reasons, including emotional attachment, security, all the secular benefits of marriage, etc. Why does it make any more sense for straight people to get married than it does for gay people to get married? There's zero difference.

And finally, why does it matter to you what other people do? You can view your marriage in a church to a person of the opposite sex as one thing, but why do other people's marriages have any bearing on your whatsoever? I didn't get married in a church, what of it? I don't know of any gay couples that I know who wanted to go to a church and get married, they just want their secular commitment to one another to be recognized under the law, exactly the same as your religious marriage is. And since US law is supposedly separated from religion, why is that a problem?


ETA: LOL, from a bit more reading, not only does the idea of marriage predate christianity by thousands of years, apparently even same-sex marriage predates christianity by at least hundreds of years. LOL
 
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Mr_President.jpg
 
mfo said:
Tell you what, if you think you can do better, run for 2012. I'll even vote for you since you're so confident in yourself.
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it is not about me thinking i am better. But i am a citizen and i know what affects me negatively... MFO if its so good why is congress exempt from it?
on a side note, i am not old enough to run. LoL.
 
Meatball said:
Just one thing...

You have to consider that "marriage" is a Christian ceremony. Not just some celebration to act through. And marriage as defined by the Bible, is the holy union of the man and the woman. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else.

Quite frankly, I don't know why gay 'couples' really want to get married. Is it necessary for them to be happy with? Absolutely not. I don't care if someone wants to go and be gay, but to go to a church and expect to be allowed through a religious ceremony (of which they are not even a part of) is kind of a silly thing do.

So while us "religious freaks" are out and about "forcing" our "views" on others, just keep that in mind. Its not a view, and its not something for a judge to appoint.

That is all!
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LOL! That's like saying that holidays are a jewish ceremony. Humans have been getting married for thousands of years, not to mention some animals mate for life. And you asked why gays would want to get married. Why would straight people want to get married? While I have problems with marriage itself, I think that it should be availiable to everyone, ESPECIALLY when it has tax and legal benefits. If it was only a religious ceremony and not a legal one, I would have less of an issue with gays being unable to follow the CHRISTIAN celebration of marriage, considering that that religion is highly intolerant compared to many others, but there is no reason that they should be kept away from a ceremony in another religion.
 
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