WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

[daguin]

Now my response to your last point:
"The one thing that justifies why a "terrorist" would drive a plane into a building is the COMMON misunderstanding (due to propaganda) (yea, Americans are swimming in OCEANS of propaganda, and the best thing is most dont know it) that ""dem arabs believe if they kill themselves they go to heaven"". Find me ONE place in ANY part of the qur'aan or the prophets sayings that says "if you kill yourself you go to heaven!!!"
"

Not that I'm an expert on the issue (very far from in fact), but as I've heard countless times and come to understand it, the texts indeed do not say that. However, that has not stopped people from interpreting it that way or people from abusing the notion to get people to do things they wouldn't normally do. I hear news of suicide bombers nearly daily it seems, and while its not impossible, I'd be hard-pressed to believe they are all just a continuation of the conspiracy and there really are no people willing to die in the name of a cause. I myself can't be so level-headed as to claim I've never felt tempted to take drastic measures for a cause before, and I'm sure you can't either. I may not be at the point of flying a plane into a building for a cause, but with so many people and so many injustices in this world, I have no trouble believing its possible to find people willing to make such a sacrifice towards something they believe in (IE. how you are willing to stand up so vehemently for your opinions on 9/11)

"Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34).

Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."

"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah...the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. They rejoice in the Grace and the Bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least)." (3:169-71)[13]

Allah's Apostle said, "Someone came to me from my Lord and gave me the news that if any of my followers dies worshipping none along with Allah, he will enter Paradise." I asked, "Even if he committed adultery and theft?" He replied, "Even if he committed adultery and theft." (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 329)[15] :Sahih Bukhari



All that being said -- crazy is crazy no matter which imaginary being or invisible friend told you to do the crazy shit

Peace,
dave


**EDIT** http://bahai-library.org/theses/dying/dying4.islam.html

 

[amkdeath]

the fact of martyrdom is VERY complicated, and therefore it is easily manipulated to form vulgar ideas. I can't spend all my life here trying to explain, but I can tell you one thing, in the qur'aan, it IS STATED that if you DIE while fighting for innocent people, or in self-defense, you are a martyr, and go to heaven. Suicide, however, is one of the biggest sins in the whole religion. Doesn't matter if you are the Prophet muhammad himslef, if you commit suicide, YOU WILL BURN IN HELL. In fact, bringing ANY kind of harm to ones own body is a HUGE sin.

(emos go to hell )

The Quran declares that "those who are slain in Allah's way" are not dead, but alive (3:169),[11] and this has often been interpreted to mean that any fighter who is killed in a jihad attains automatic salvation. Though most Muslims came to renounce holy war as an honorable pursuit, a characteristic of the early community and among extremists today is a zeal for fighting "in Allah's way" and attaining martyrdom.[12]

There is no Jihad going on now, Jihad doesn't just happen. If the whole of the muslim community is united against a common enemy, then that is Jihad. Usama Bin-Laden is not the whole of the Muslim community. If some afgan decides to blow himself up, he is not doing it for any good.


oh and this:

Even if he committed adultery and theft?

you know, I have never heard that one before, and from what I know, There are no apostles in islam... and

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 329

I dont know where that is from, but the qur'aan is one book, one volume, one version.

dying in battle may be one way to put it, but if a Muslim fought in the Korean war for example it wouldn't get him anywhere... (In regards to islamic martyrdom. )




@pseudo: Whoa whoa... Hold your horses... we were having a discussion here... no need to start name calling and losing your temper.



now, I dont see what you are asking in your post for me to answer..



regards,

amk


BTW... Islam seems so OT.. maybe we should start another thread...

 

[gunsimon0077]

Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy?

Some say it was a cotrolled demo the smaller building,was it blding 7?Anyway it does look like a cntd demo say experts but to wire a building with cutting charges,the miles of det cord would take mouths to wire the only way this would be possible would be to wire and place the charges when the building was built not very likely?C4 cutting charges have a shelf life of 3 years so how could you place enough explosive in the right place,anyone herd of nano- thermite makes clouds of dust
goes of like nuke ish

 

[nikokapo]

Just a forewarning amkdeath - I respond to your comments, so if you are gunna post again on this thread, you had better well respond to mine:

amk, its not fair to say other people are close minded to your ideas and then stay close minded to theirs.

Sure you can throw a slew of very minor, very inconsistent things at us that might not make perfect sense on the surface. I'm working in a nanotech lab over the summer, and even on such small scales I see things that initially baffle me every day. You're talking on the macro scale of two very complex, very massive things colliding and then trying to pick apart evey little micro detail that might not immediately make sense. I'm not surprised there are lots of little hard to answer questions, I'd be calling it a conspiracy if there weren't!

The problem I have with most "conspiracy theorists" is they won't listen. They'll come up with a bunch of half-assed excuses that don't really mean anything, but they'll pretend are clear indications of a conspiracy. Then if someone who clearly knows more about the issue comes along and refutes them, they just pull a bunch of other random junk out of their... hat. They ignore the fact that they clearly made a mistake and fight tooth-and-nail to refuse to admit it. At the moment, you're doing just that and at least to my eyes, that's one of the quickest ways to lose credibility.

As I've said before on these forums, I'm a man of Occham's razor. I have never once 100% written off the possibility that 9/11 is a giant conspiracy. However all the evidence I see leads me to believe that its a one in a million chance. When I have those other 999,999 thousands telling me its simply like it seems, you can guess where my opinions will lie. Little picky things like the order in which clouds of particles blew out of windows is hardly the persuasive macro-scale picture you need to paint to change my mind.

So yeah. I don't mind that you have a contrasting opinion - its good that there are still people thinking and questioning so we don't someday end up with such serious conspiracies. If you're gunna waste our time though by throwing a bunch of little details at us; refusing to admit when you've been refuted - just ignoring the hard spent time of the refuter and throwing out a bunch more little oddities, its EXTREMELY RUDE AND DISRESPECTIFUL to the thousands of other people who are equally as well meaning as you and willing to devote their time in hopes of a DISCUSSION, not a one-sided argument on the issue.


Now my response to your last point:
"The one thing that justifies why a "terrorist"  would drive a plane into a building is the COMMON misunderstanding (due to propaganda) (yea, Americans are swimming in OCEANS of propaganda, and the best thing is most dont know it) that ""dem arabs believe if they kill themselves they go to heaven"". Find me ONE place in ANY part of the qur'aan or the prophets sayings that says "if you kill yourself you go to heaven!!!"
"

Not that I'm an expert on the issue (very far from in fact), but as I've heard countless times and come to understand it, the texts indeed do not say that. However, that has not stopped people from interpreting it that way or people from abusing the notion to get people to do things they wouldn't normally do. I hear news of suicide bombers nearly daily it seems, and while its not impossible, I'd be hard-pressed to believe they are all just a continuation of the conspiracy and there really are no people willing to die in the name of a cause. I myself can't be so level-headed as to claim I've never felt tempted to take drastic measures for a cause before, and I'm sure you can't either. I may not be at the point of flying a plane into a building for a cause, but with so many people and so many injustices in this world, I have no trouble believing its possible to find people willing to make such a sacrifice towards something they believe in (IE. how you are willing to stand up so vehemently for your opinions on 9/11)

Look, amk, i respect you and i like you; but pseudonomen really wrote pretty much of what i think about this kind of stuff.


oh

i've studied jewish history for 5-6 years, i've studied BOTH sides, didnt bias towards jews. a simplified explanation would be that, it's not what is said in the koran, it's what people make out of it. this means that X group of "terrorists", which are actually just people who want things to be done on their benefit, will tergiverse the lines of the koran and "make them mean" what they want.

for example
if i say that you will go to heaven if you are jewish, that'll mean that if you arent jewish you will NEVER go to heaven (this is invented, and there's no such thing as a jewish heaven).

the same way they twist the truth and make people think they need to sacrifice themselves to achieve all glory.

@daguin: i give that demotivator 5 stars out of five. 100% true!

 

[amkdeath]

lol im done arguing


its just going to make enemies ;D ;D


anyhow, what do the jews have to do with this ??

 

[daguin]

lol im done arguing


its just going to make enemies ;D ;D


anyhow, what do the jews have to do with this ??

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!

THE JEWS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING!

Don't you read Al Arabia?

<sheesh -- kids today -- don't know who the correct scapegoat is>

*shakes head*

Peace,
dave

 

[amkdeath]

[quote author=amkdeath link=1215818266/36#36 date=1215916020]lol im done arguing


its just going to make enemies  ;D ;D


anyhow, what do the jews have to do with this ??

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!

THE JEWS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING!

Don't you read Al Arabia?

<sheesh -- kids today -- don't know who the correct scapegoat is>

*shakes head*

Peace,
dave[/quote]


lol ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[GooeyGus]

 

[robjdixon]

you love that picture don't you : ;D

 

[nikokapo]

you love that picture don't you  : ;D

Who doesn't?

just like this one

 

[nikokapo]

lol im done arguing


its just going to make enemies  ;D ;D


anyhow, what do the jews have to do with this ??

I was just comparing stuff... doesn't matter anymore, just keep on looking at that pic-ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD