Survival Laser Open Thread

[Garoq]

I don't want to get too involved in this but, I sent an email last year to Gary with the issue. Just wanted to show that it was brought up to him and he's known for some time.

View attachment 72845

I don't believe I shared that with EP as it looked like an extremely tiny fraction of a milliwatt to me. I've seen it with other goggles too due to the high visibility of green wavelengths. in fact, I think there was some discussion about it on LPF a number of years ago.

 

[Giannis_TDM]

I don't believe I shared that with EP as it looked like an extremely tiny fraction of a milliwatt to me. I've seen it with other goggles too due to the high visibility of green wavelengths. in fact, I think there was some discussion about it on LPF a number of years ago.

You have no argument here, Camera is used hence you cannot make any assumptions about power transmitted. What you can do is compare the dot to the 532 and see that it passes at least 1 order of magnitude more.

 

[Andrew124C41]

I suspect none of you own a half million dollar goggleometer which would resolve this issue once and for all. Most LPF members are hobbiests. The most powerful laser they will build is based on the NUBM44.

Of course the first thing they will do upon completion is turn it on and look directly into the beam with one eye. Since it likely will be a bit bright, they will immediately switch to the other eye.

So, yes, we really do need to know that our goggles will protect us which is why I invested in that goggleometer.

So, problem solved. Case closed.

For those working professionally who are interested in looking right into a 100 W CO2 laser, perhaps shelling out a little extra dough for lab grade goggles might be in order.

If you stay in the hobby long enough, cataracts will afford a bit of protection and obviate the need for goggles


In all seriousness, one needs to use a little common sense. There is a heavy emphasis on safety on LPF and stupidity is generally frowned upon. LPF members have a kind of collective common sense and wisdom. Survival Laser is a reseller and the scope of the business is not large. It is a niche or specialty business and does not have a huge volume. It is not like Gary is making a killing at it.

Therefore, the level of due diligence should be proportunate and I think all things considered, it is. It is not that Gary simply does not want to spend the money, it is not reasonable for him to do anymore than he is already doing.

He knows his products and to whom he is selling.
It is not unreasonable for resellers to depend upon the reputation of the companies they deal with. One can argue about whether LPM testing is the proper gold standard but the fact remains that he does not really have to do any testing whatsoever. In terms of the intended use of the goggles by laser building hobbiests, I don't think it fair to expect more than he has already done.

LPF members should have some feeling for the limits of their PPE and should act accordingly. Caveat emptor. The translation for laser enthusiasts is don't stare down the barrel of your laser with the power on
...with or without goggles.

Unless you let me check them out on my goggleometer for 69.95 plus tax!

 

[Why_you]

I suspect none of you own a half million dollar goggleometer which would resolve this issue once and for all. Most LPF members are hobbiests. The most powerful laser they will build is based on the NUBM44. Of course the first thing they will do upon completion it to turn it on and look directly into the beam with one eye. Since it likely will be a bit bright, they will immediately switch to the other eye.

So, yes, we really do need to know that our goggles will protect us which is why I invested in that goggleometer.

So, problem solved. Case closed.

For those working professionally who are interested in looking right into a 100 W CO2 laser, perhaps shelling out a little extra dough for lab grade goggles might be in order.

If you stay in the hobby long enough, cataracts will afford a bit of protection.

In all seriousness, one needs to use a little common sense. There is a heavy emphasis on safety on LPF and stupidity is generally frowned upon. LPF members have a kind of collective common sense and wisdom. Survival Laser is a reseller and the scope of the business is not large. It is a niche or specialty business and does not have a huge volume. It is not like Gary is making a killing at it.

Therefore, the level of due diligence should be proportunate and I think all things considered, it is. It is not that Gary simply does not want to spend the money, it is not reasonable for him to do anymore than he is already doing.

He knows his products and to whom he is selling.
It is not unreasonable for resellers to depend upon the reputation of the companies they deal with. One can argue about whether LPM testing is the proper gold standard but the fact remains that he does not really have to do any testing whatsoever. In terms of the intended use of the goggles by laser building hobbiests, I don't think it fair to expect more than he has already done.

LPF members should have some feeling for the limits of their PPE and should act accordingly. Caveat emptor. The translation for laser enthusiasts is don't stare down the barrel of your laser with the power on
...with or without goggles.

Unless you let me check them out on my goggleometer for 69.95 plus tax!

And again: A laser power meter is NOT at all useful for tests. There's no arguing about it, that thing is NOT used for optical density tests, simply because it is the wrong tool for the job. I asked a friend of mine who's working in the laser safety department of one of the largest PPE manufacturers how they do it, he recommended a spectrophotometer. Go ahead, grab an engineer and ask them about LPMs. They will tell you the exact same thing: You do NOT use them for OD measurements, you can only use them for EN207 certifications.

Second: Spectrophotometers are rather cheap, you can get a used meter that goes up to OD3 for 200 bucks. And as i have demonstrated with my unit, that thing is more than capable of showing the flaws of my EP goggles. Even top of the line units like the Agilent Cary 6000i (that's actually the model that is used by that PPE manufacturer i was talking about) are only in the 5 digits. That's dirt cheap for a scientific instrument, and it begs the question why EagleView doesn't seem to have such an instrument if their official QA data for OD7+ goggles was taken on an instrument that maxes out at OD6. If i was reselling PPE, i would definitely want a way to test samples, because it can get rather spicy if you are selling defective PPE. And honestly, 200 bucks (or 3 EP goggles) is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Third: Spirits measurement of the EP 15-4 show a transmittance of over 1% for the 1064 nm Nd:YAG wavelength, that should absolutely concern hobbyists. Just imagine what could happen if someone used one of those cheap Q-Switch tattoo removers... Or a YAG with a few Watt, also not that crazy for a hobbyist. You don't have to point the laser at your eyeballs, the reflected (and btw, INVISIBLE) light can also cause damage. Yes, it will only take you a second to realise that your blue laser doesn't get absorbed by your goggles, but what if you can't see the beam at all because it's in the infrared? How long does it take before you register that something's wrong?

 

[Giannis_TDM]

I suspect none of you own a half million dollar goggleometer which would resolve this issue once and for all. Most LPF members are hobbiests. The most powerful laser they will build is based on the NUBM44. Of course the first thing they will do upon completion it to turn it on and look directly into the beam with one eye. Since it likely be a bit bright, they will immediately switch to the other eye.

So, yes, we really do need to know that our goggles will protect us which is why I invested in that goggleometer.

So, problem solved. Case closed.

For those working professionally who are interested in looking right into a 100 W CO2 laser, perhaps shelling out a little extra dough for for lab goggles might be in order.

If you stay in the hobby long enough, old age cataracts will afford a bit of protection.

In all seriousness, one needs to use a little common sense. There is a heavy emphasis on safety on LPF and stupidity is generally frowned upon. LPF members have a kind of collective common sense and wisdom. Survival Laser is a reseller and in consideration of the scope of the business. It is a niche or specialty business and does not have a huge volume. It is not like Gary is making a killing at it.

The level of due diligence should be proportunate and I think all things considered, it is. It is not that Gary simply does not want to spend the money, it is not reasonable for him to do anymore than he has already done.

He knows his products and to whom he is selling.
It is not unreasonable for resellers to depend upon the reputation of the companies they deal with. One can argue about whether LPM testing is the proper gold standard but the fact remains that he does not really have to do any testing whatsoever. In terms of the intended use of the goggles by laser building hobbiests, I don't think it fair to expect more than he has already done.

LPF members should have some feeling for the limits of their PPE and should act accordingly. Caveat emptor. The translation for laser enthusiasts is don't stare down the barrel of your laser with the power on
...with or without goggles.

Unless you let me check them out on my goggleometer for 69.95 plus tax!

This is a stupid argument. You say that the company shouldn't test its products because the test equipment is too expensive? Jesus I didn't want to spend 2K on test equipment for my drivers either but it's required if I want to sell them. This statement is even more serious considering that we are talking about PPE

I suspect none of you own a half million dollar goggleometer which would resolve this issue once and for all. Most LPF members are hobbiests. The most powerful laser they will build is based on the NUBM44. Of course the first thing they will do upon completion it to turn it on and look directly into the beam with one eye. Since it likely will be a bit bright, they will immediately switch to the other eye.

So, yes, we really do need to know that our goggles will protect us which is why I invested in that goggleometer.

So, problem solved. Case closed.

For those working professionally who are interested in looking right into a 100 W CO2 laser, perhaps shelling out a little extra dough for lab grade goggles might be in order.

If you stay in the hobby long enough, cataracts will afford a bit of protection.

In all seriousness, one needs to use a little common sense. There is a heavy emphasis on safety on LPF and stupidity is generally frowned upon. LPF members have a kind of collective common sense and wisdom. Survival Laser is a reseller and the scope of the business is not large. It is a niche or specialty business and does not have a huge volume. It is not like Gary is making a killing at it.

Therefore, the level of due diligence should be proportunate and I think all things considered, it is. It is not that Gary simply does not want to spend the money, it is not reasonable for him to do anymore than he is already doing.

He knows his products and to whom he is selling.
It is not unreasonable for resellers to depend upon the reputation of the companies they deal with. One can argue about whether LPM testing is the proper gold standard but the fact remains that he does not really have to do any testing whatsoever. In terms of the intended use of the goggles by laser building hobbiests, I don't think it fair to expect more than he has already done.

LPF members should have some feeling for the limits of their PPE and should act accordingly. Caveat emptor. The translation for laser enthusiasts is don't stare down the barrel of your laser with the power on
...with or without goggles.

Unless you let me check them out on my goggleometer for 69.95 plus tax!

So are you literally defending false advetizement of a product by saying its intended for hobbyists? That's like saying my drivers have a 50% chance of blowing up on power up but I shouldn't do anything about it since they are for hobbyists, it's like 'its for hobbyists' is a valid excuse for the product to be of poor quality....

 

[gazer101]

Well an LPM can sanity check goggles (obviously if it fails the LPM test it will also fail the proper test)

Maybe moving forward I'll just build a higher resolution VR headset with an easily swappable CMOS and use it as my "laser safety goggles"
The thought that I'm not 100% guaranteed safe in the case of a direct hit really turns me off from the whole semi-transparent goggles idea

 

[Giannis_TDM]

Well an LPM can sanity check goggles (obviously if it fails the LPM test it will also fail the proper test)

Maybe moving forward I'll just build a higher resolution VR headset with an easily swappable CMOS and use it as my "laser safety goggles"
The thought that I'm not 100% guaranteed safe in the case of a direct hit really turns me off from the whole semi-transparent goggles idea

Then you remember that: It will cost above 200$ if you want acceptable results, Way more if you want a proper stereoscopic vision for depth sensing, Will be heavy, require changing, and most importantly the cameras WILL get saturated under laser light reflecting so you won't be able to see jack anyways.

 

[Why_you]

Well an LPM can sanity check goggles (obviously if it fails the LPM test it will also fail the proper test)

Maybe moving forward I'll just build a higher resolution VR headset with an easily swappable CMOS and use it as my "laser safety goggles"
The thought that I'm not 100% guaranteed safe in the case of a direct hit really turns me off from the whole semi-transparent goggles idea

Well, then find me a LPM with a sufficient dynamic range for the job... You can't burn the goggles, because that would invalidate the measurement and your LPM has to be sensitive enough to detect nW. You can't just use chinesium LPMs or cheapos that display "000 mW", because the goggles would have to fail pretty spectacularly to register on those meters. You want to verify that your goggles reach OD6? Well, you have to get something that can take the full brunt of the laser without goggles that's also sensitive enough to accurately measure one millionth of the emitted power (for OD6 goggles). Such things are available, one cheap example would be the Thorlabs PM120VA. It has a range from 50 nW to 50 mW, so it's decent enough. But it costs nearly 1500 USD.

"But i have a Laserbee/whatever, and it shows 000 mW so those goggles are safe". Wrong. It just shows you that the goggles are transmitting LESS than 0.5 mW (at ONE specific wavelength). Is it 0.4 mW? 100 uW? 10 nW? Nobody knows. And you can't just bump up the power because the "OD" skyrockets as soon as the goggles start to burn.

Honestly, i don't get this weird fixation on LPMs: They aren't useful for that purpose, and even if you have a LPM with a sufficient dynamic range you would still need a supercontinuum to measure the optical density over the entire spectrum. I could have hit my EaglePairs with 532nm all day long (at least according to EagleView) and it would have shown that the goggles are "safe", but they still would have failed as soon as i turned my Argon on.

So to sum it up: You would need at least a 1500 USD LPM AND a Supercontinuum. Or a used spectrophotometer for a few hundred bucks that's actually better at the job. (Also, Supercontinuum lasers emit femtosecond pulses, and Eagle Pair goggles DEFINITELY don't protect against those)

But i might perform a destructive test with my EP for shits and giggles, even the manufacturer has admitted that those are garbage so i'm not even destroying PPE that might have been useful.

 

[gazer101]

Then you remember that: It will cost above 200$ if you want acceptable results, Way more if you want a proper stereoscopic vision for depth sensing, Will be heavy, require changing, and most importantly the cameras WILL get saturated under laser light reflecting so you won't be able to see jack anyways.

Of course I won't explicitly go out and buy expensive hardware just for this purpose, but I could use this as incentive for me to get a better VR setup which I could hack an extra camera into (obviously making covers for the other cameras while in use, wouldn't want to damage those)

Well, then find me a LPM with a sufficient dynamic range for the job... You can't burn the goggles, because that would invalidate the measurement and your LPM has to be sensitive enough to detect nW. You can't just use chinesium LPMs or cheapos that display "000 mW", because the goggles would have to fail pretty spectacularly to register on those meters. You want to verify that your goggles reach OD6? Well, you have to get something that can take the full brunt of the laser without goggles that's also sensitive enough to accurately measure one millionth of the emitted power (for OD6 goggles). Such things are available, one cheap example would be the Thorlabs PM120VA. It has a range from 50 nW to 50 mW, so it's decent enough. But it costs nearly 1500 USD.

"But i have a Laserbee/whatever, and it shows 000 mW so those goggles are safe". Wrong. It just shows you that the goggles are transmitting LESS than 0.5 mW (at ONE specific wavelength). Is it 0.4 mW? 100 uW? 10 nW? Nobody knows. And you can't just bump up the power because the "OD" skyrockets as soon as the goggles start to burn.

Honestly, i don't get this weird fixation on LPMs: They aren't useful for that purpose, and even if you have a LPM with a sufficient dynamic range you would still need a supercontinuum to measure the optical density over the entire spectrum. I could have hit my EaglePairs with 532nm all day long (at least according to EagleView) and it would have shown that the goggles are "safe", but they still would have failed as soon as i turned my Argon on.

So to sum it up: You would need at least a 1500 USD LPM AND a Supercontinuum. Or a used spectrophotometer for a few hundred bucks that's actually better at the job. (Also, Supercontinuum lasers emit femtosecond pulses, and Eagle Pair goggles DEFINITELY don't protect against those)

But i might perform a destructive test with my EP for shits and giggles, even the manufacturer has admitted that those are garbage so i'm not even destroying PPE that might have been useful.

Yeah it's a qualitative test at best, obv you'd be shining into a weird spot on the goggles and not in middle of the lenses so you don't wreck them

I think my LPM is supposed to have roughly the same absorption values up into the infrared region, so if an OD4 pair of goggles shows more than a mW when tested on a 1W laser for instance, then they would obviously not be up to par

 

[Garoq]

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[Garoq]

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[Garoq]

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[Garoq]

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[Garoq]

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[Why_you]

Hi Gary,

I just wanted to ask if you could give us a status update on a few things:

1) Do you have any new or updated OD vs wavelength charts for your goggles? You told Giannis in February that you would request updated graphs for your OD6+ 190-540 nm goggles, do you have them (or graphs for the other goggles that you sell)?

2) Do you plan to do anything regarding the 190-540 & 800-1700 nm OD5+ goggles that you sold prior to 2020? EagleView has admitted that those goggles have a design flaw and that they would be “happy to support an exchange program through Gary for anyone that had an earlier version EP-1 filter to change to the new EP-1.”. Any thoughts/updates on that?

I also have a few bones to pick with EagleView (regarding their statement that they send you via email [especially about a few statements that are completely false and misleading]), in an ideal world I’d just send them a questionnaire regarding their statement, but my emails seem to miraculously disappear from their inbox after I get a delivery confirmation.

 

[Garoq]

Hi Gary,

I just wanted to ask if you could give us a status update on a few things:

1) Do you have any new or updated OD vs wavelength charts for your goggles? You told Giannis in February that you would request updated graphs for your OD6+ 190-540 nm goggles, do you have them (or graphs for the other goggles that you sell)?

2) Do you plan to do anything regarding the 190-540 & 800-1700 nm OD5+ goggles that you sold prior to 2020? EagleView has admitted that those goggles have a design flaw and that they would be “happy to support an exchange program through Gary for anyone that had an earlier version EP-1 filter to change to the new EP-1.”. Any thoughts/updates on that?

I also have a few bones to pick with EagleView (regarding their statement that they send you via email [especially about a few statements that are completely false and misleading]), in an ideal world I’d just send them a questionnaire regarding their statement, but my emails seem to miraculously disappear from their inbox after I get a delivery confirmation.

1. I have not received any updated OD charts, but I can ask again.
2. The company is Eagle Pair, not EagleView. We do not sell EagleView products. As I mentioned in another post, we have a supply of replacement filters for the older OD5 model and will ship them to anyone who requests them. So far, no one has contacted us.
3. I can’t help you with that. They always respond to my emails.