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FrozenGate by Avery

Sodium metal

Didn't know about the art store graphite, good idea! I thought the electrodes had to be inert and of high purity in order to not have competing reactions limit the yield. This was a major issue when I tried to make KClO3 years ago via electrolysis. I tried every type of steel and nonferrous metal I could get my hands on but no luck.

With electrolysis of molten hydroxide you don't have to worry about side reactions like you do in a Chlorate reactor so using steel or carbon as the anode or cathode isn't a problem.

Art supply graphite blocks are usually made (processed) by the same companies that make motor graphite and therefore very pure.

If you were thinking of doing an NaCl molten salt synth, I'd say use a specific
anode + cathode material. - = Fe + = C

Anode in the NaCl synth delivers Cl gas which why carbon is a better choice.

:can:
 
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If you were thinking of doing an NaCl molten salt synth, I'd say use a specific
anode + cathode material. - = Fe + = C

Anode in the NaCl synth delivers Cl gas which why carbon is a better choice.

:can:

Ahh yes, quite right! Not having known the hydroxides were feasible and only having experience (indirect) with chloride reactors my mind wasn't clicking on the fact that electrode material would be far less of an issue when the released gas is only H2 instead of Cl!
 
Id like to try a molten sodium hydroxide sodium metal production oneday .

everything thing would be carbon steel as it can withstand 330C sodium hydroxide , the cathode would be copper and the anode would be nickel .

And the whole thing would be temperature regulated .
 
Id like to try a molten sodium hydroxide sodium metal production oneday .

everything thing would be carbon steel as it can withstand 330C sodium hydroxide , the cathode would be copper and the anode would be nickel .

And the whole thing would be temperature regulated .

Remember you're only heating NaOH to 318°C which is at NaOH 's melting point. Steels melting point is FAR FAR above this at around 1425°C .. After melting NaOH you'll be running about 12Vdc @ ~15A to start the separation process. You DON'T want to over-exceed NaOH melting point of 318°C as you'll ignite the sodium as soon as it is formed. I'd personally stick with Iron for the Cathode and Carbon for the Anode preferably or crucible being the Cathode and Fe (Steel would be fine too)



:beer:
 
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S_L I've got some 1/8" thick stainless steel boxes I made when I was a welder that I'm thinking about using as the crucible. I even have a 13.8V 25A psu ready to go for it. The catch; I don't have a suitable burner or lab stand, and I'd like to use KOH instead (for K yield). I'll probably just use steel for the anode for simplicity and cost, though if I can grab a graphite rod easily I'll go with that. I do have a sterno oven I made out of the same 1/8" stainless, I never checked how hot it gets when heated with a sterno can, but I'm really tempted to use this as it's pretty indestructible. If the thermal transfer is good enough I could just place the crucible on it and use it as a stand, as the wall height of the sterno oven is only 3/4", but the crucible is 6" x 2.5" x 2.5", which is ideal.

How would you determine the autoignition temperature of the alkali metal?

Also, I didn't realize K melted at such a low temp, I REALLY wish I kept the sample I had years ago, and I REALLY REALLY wish I had a suitable vacuum pump because I'd love to try making a Potassium Vapor lamp. I looked up how much it would cost to get a new sample of K, and let me tell you, Na is WAY cheaper.

If I do manage to get a decent set up and yield I may just start selling K samples to interested people.
 
S_L I've got some 1/8" thick stainless steel boxes I made when I was a welder that I'm thinking about using as the crucible. I even have a 13.8V 25A psu ready to go for it. The catch; I don't have a suitable burner or lab stand, and I'd like to use KOH instead (for K yield). I'll probably just use steel for the anode for simplicity and cost, though if I can grab a graphite rod easily I'll go with that. I do have a sterno oven I made out of the same 1/8" stainless, I never checked how hot it gets when heated with a sterno can, but I'm really tempted to use this as it's pretty indestructible. If the thermal transfer is good enough I could just place the crucible on it and use it as a stand, as the wall height of the sterno oven is only 3/4", but the crucible is 6" x 2.5" x 2.5", which is ideal.

How would you determine the autoignition temperature of the alkali metal?

Also, I didn't realize K melted at such a low temp, I REALLY wish I kept the sample I had years ago, and I REALLY REALLY wish I had a suitable vacuum pump because I'd love to try making a Potassium Vapor lamp. I looked up how much it would cost to get a new sample of K, and let me tell you, Na is WAY cheaper.

If I do manage to get a decent set up and yield I may just start selling K samples to interested people.

Autoignition temperature of Sodium is going to be difficult to determine. NaOH melts at 315c and Sodium's melting point is only 115c. My experience has been that Sodium above it's melting point is highly temperamental. So treat with EXTREME caution.
Have a bottle filled with Mineral oil when doing the extraction process so you can dump the metal into it as soon as it floats to the surface of your molten OH .
One thing that you will experience doing the electrolysis method is the occasional pop from escaping hydrogen gas. This is to be expected.
Never leave this setup unattended.

Potassium metal is a serious challenge to attempt via molten salt solution due to it's extreme reactivity to air and I'd recommend nurderanges potassium video method using high temp oil and magnesium turnings instead.
 
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Potassium metal is a serious challenge to attempt via molten salt solution due to it's extreme reactivity to air and I'd recommend nurderanges potassium video method using high temp oil and magnesium turnings instead.

I can't find any specifics on this, it seems the page about it on instructables was deleted. Do you have any links or specifics?
 
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Ahh, thanks! That is a lot more complex, requiring a reflux condenser setup if the high density solvent is used. Even if I used mineral oil instead I'm not sure I could find the required tertiary alcohol. Would love to try that, but the electrolysis method seems a whole lot simpler. Isn't sodium more reactive than potassium anyway? Why would the potassium electrolysis be more dangerous?
 
Ahh, thanks! That is a lot more complex, requiring a reflux condenser setup if the high density solvent is used. Even if I used mineral oil instead I'm not sure I could find the required tertiary alcohol. Would love to try that, but the electrolysis method seems a whole lot simpler. Isn't sodium more reactive than potassium anyway? Why would the potassium electrolysis be more dangerous?

Activity (electro positivity) increases as you get lower in the Alkali group, so Sodium is less reactive than Potassium.
Will clarify further.... Regardless if your are doing the Magnesium reduction (NurdRage) or electrolysis of potassium, both extraction methods are quite hazardous to attempt.
My thinking is that you will have far better success with the NurdRage method than the Electrolysis method.
 
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Well, I searched for about an hour. Aside from a single 15ml vial of questionable source and quality on eBay I can't source any of the tertiary alcohols that Nurdrage mentioned.

I guess I'll have to stick to electrolysis synths, and I'll probably give NaOH a shot before attempting KOH, which sounds like it will need inert atmosphere coverage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well, I searched for about an hour. Aside from a single 15ml vial of questionable source and quality on eBay I can't source any of the tertiary alcohols that Nurdrage mentioned.

I guess I'll have to stick to electrolysis synths, and I'll probably give NaOH a shot before attempting KOH, which sounds like it will need inert atmosphere coverage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, if you happen to have a bottle of Argon to remove the atmospheric oxygen that may very well help with attaining a better yield.
:thinking:

I'll look for some more synths to see if there isn't a better way of doing this.
 
This may be of interest to collectors here...

Every good monster must have a secret weapon and Tellurium is no exception. It gives its enemies garlic breath, really bad garlic breath. A dose of half a microgram, hardly even visible would give you garlic breath for 30 hours, Oh! And it also gives its victim black patches on the webbing in between the fingers, but few people would get close enough to notice this. Like a certain well-known vampire, Tellurium was first discovered in Transylvania. This was in 1783 by Franz Joseph Muller von Reichenstein, the chief inspector of the mines there. He was having particular problems with the analysis of an unusual Gold containing ore. Eventually, he managed to isolate a new metal from the ore and he called it aurum problematicum. He sent a sample to the German chemist Martin Klaproth, who confirmed it was a new element and gave it the name Tellurium. But to properly understand why he called it this, we need to go way back in time and look into space.



When early man looked up at the stars at night, he noticed certain heavenly bodies that moved through the fixed pattern of the stars. These were the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Two other great bodies also seemed to circle the earth, namely the Sun and the Moon. Altogether then there were seven such heavenly bodies and seven was a magical number. Early man also knew of just seven metals, Gold, Silver, Copper, Iron, Tin, Lead and Mercury; surely this could be no coincidence. In the same ways that rays from the sun nourish plants and are essential for their growth, it was thought that the invisible rays from the planets helped nourish metallic ores in the ground. Each planet was thought to have a particular influence on one metal or its ores. Chaucer described this connection in the 14th Century. The Sun is associated with Gold, the Moon with Silver, Mars with Iron, Saturn with Lead, Jupiter with Tin and Venus with Copper and even today, we still keep the same name for both the planet and the element, Mercury. The association between Gold and the Sun seems fairly obvious from their colours, similarly the connection between Silver and the Moon. The other connections are little more vague. A 17th Century text quotes, "Iron is called by the name of Mars whether employed for the making of weapons of war, of which Mars was said to be the God or because of the influences from which iron receives from this planet." It is interesting that we now know that the colour of this red planet is due to the oxides of Iron. The chemists called Copper, Venus both by reason of the influences, which possibly it receives from that planet and of the virtue it had in diseases seated in the purpose of generation. This is referring to early treatments of Venereal Diseases, the diseases of Venus. Being the planet closest to the Sun, Mercury moves through space faster than any other. It takes Mercury just 88 days to orbit the Sun, compared to our 365 days. Perhaps, this speedy motion was one of the reasons for the lasting association between the metal and the planet or perhaps it is as described in one book "due to the fact that the element has an aptness to change its figure, a property attributed by the heathens to mercury, one of their false Gods." The connection between the elements Tin and Lead with Jupiter and Saturn were even more dubious.



Unfortunately, the magic number of 7 metals didn't last. For a while, early chemists, just conveniently passed over Antimony, Arsenic, Bismuth, Zinc and Cobalt. After all they weren't real metals, but with the discovery of Platinum, they could ignore it no more. For a while, Platinum was even known as the eighth metal. Still more metals were discovered, but then in 1781, a new planet was discovered, Uranus. Just as the ancient God, Saturn or Cronus was the father of Jupiter or Zeus, the new planet should be named after the father of Saturn, hence Uranus, after the Greek God of the sky. In recognition of this discovery in 1789, Klaproth named a new metal he had discovered after this element, Uranium. So in 1798, when Klaproth had the chance to name another element, he named it after the only then known planet in the Solar System that did not have an element named after it, the Earth. In ancient mythology, Tellus or Terra or Gaea was the goddess of the Earth and the wife of Uranus, the God of the Skies. Thus was born Tellurium.
 
You're quite right, this video used to be on youtube but I couldn't find it either. Looks as though it was deleted.

HOWEVER... I got a backup copy from a Chinese site. :eg: :eg: :eg:
link here:

Make Potassium Metal (Catalyzed Magnesium Reduction Method)??????????????????

:can:

I really like this method Thanks for posting it +1 :)

BTW I get all "hard to get chemicals" from sigma aldrich they are more expensive but they have nearly everything!

Edit: the NaK alloy is also liquid at room temp like mercury and ignites itself when you drop it before it hits the ground! anyone want to make this? ;)
 
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Reading these posts promptede to recall an experience of mine, many,any moons ago when I was a Teaching Asst. Freshman year high school in '69. I read VERY LITTLE about NA metal & its properties ( STUPID !!!) & decided I wanted some myself. Well, I "liberated" some from the Chem. Store room, took it home & threw it in the toilet ! BIG MISTAKE ! My dad just put a new seat on & the resulting 'reaction' of NA + H2O left pit burns all over the underside of that new seat. Man did I get reamed but was forever hooked by Chemistry & Majored in Chen. Tech. In college.
 
I really like this method Thanks for posting it +1 :)

BTW I get all "hard to get chemicals" from sigma aldrich they are more expensive but they have nearly everything!

Edit: the NaK alloy is also liquid at room temp like mercury and ignites itself when you drop it before it hits the ground! anyone want to make this? ;)

Liquid at room temperature? WOW!! I'd thought this was a "soft" solid..
Sure enough you're right.
This alloy was originally used for a prototype Neutron reactor in the 1960's.
I think no Nuclear Physicist in their right mind is going to be near a device
with NaK as the coolant... just saying..
Sure enough several very large disasters with this coolant led to the program being scrapped.

What I think is even more amazing is that this alloy is being used as a coolant in sealed PC CPU coolers.. yup you heard correctly.

Danamics LMX Superleggera Cooler Review.
Danamics LMX Superleggera Cooler Review. Page 2 - X-bit labs


No way anyone is going to make NaK without a completely inert (Argon) atmosphere.
Oh and if you think you're going to use teflon around it, think again. NaK apparently attacks Teflon easily.
 


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