Global Warming - Real Science?

[pullbangdead]

Kinda gives a new perspective to hydrogen fuel where "the only emission is harmless water vapor."



Sure it can. Well... not the planet itself - more like the infrastructure we build for ourselves.

Two things.

One, you know that that's a lie about "the only emission is water", right? Well, a half-truth. There are PLENTY of emissions at the places where they produce the hydrogen, it's just moving the pollutants from a diffuse source (cars) to a point source (the power plant running the H2 production facility). Like using electricity at your house. Sure, there are no pollutants like there would be if you were running your own generator, but there are still plenty of emissions at the power plant producing the electricity. Of course economies of scale are great, but that's another topic.

Then, about the planet's carrying capacity. You know the idea of a carrying capacity, right? The earth has one, it has to. The earth is finite, therefore the amount of life it will support is finite. With exponentially growing populations, like the human population, it is a mathematical certainty that we will exceed the earth's carrying capacity, if we have not done so already. But honestly, several researchers I've read have said from their work that we are already over the earth's carrying capacity, possibly by quite a bit. Therefore, there will have to be a correction, and a catastrophic one at that. Luckily for us, most all of us on here live in the richest nations on earth, so we've got the best shot at making it through the correction alive. Really, there is research out there that says we are truly over the earth's carrying capacity already, quite interesting (and terrifying) stuff to read.

 

[Hemlock_Mike]

What are the emissions from volcanos? Lets plug them up too !!!
Mankind can not even compare to Ma Nature in anything. Even a thunderstorm releases more energy than some of our b0mbs.
Also, as noted earlier here, GREEN is not related to GW. Green is simply using what we have efficiently and not rapeing the earth. Here in Iowa, we have thousands of wind generators dotting the area. That's a good start.

HMike

 

[Tech_Junkie]

Does it have a nickname? That's quite a mouth full.

Yeah...the good chit.

 

[mfo]

Two things.

One, you know that that's a lie about "the only emission is water", right? Well, a half-truth. There are PLENTY of emissions at the places where they produce the hydrogen, it's just moving the pollutants from a diffuse source (cars) to a point source (the power plant running the H2 production facility). Like using electricity at your house. Sure, there are no pollutants like there would be if you were running your own generator, but there are still plenty of emissions at the power plant producing the electricity. Of course economies of scale are great, but that's another topic.

Then, about the planet's carrying capacity. You know the idea of a carrying capacity, right? The earth has one, it has to. The earth is finite, therefore the amount of life it will support is finite. With exponentially growing populations, like the human population, it is a mathematical certainty that we will exceed the earth's carrying capacity, if we have not done so already. But honestly, several researchers I've read have said from their work that we are already over the earth's carrying capacity, possibly by quite a bit. Therefore, there will have to be a correction, and a catastrophic one at that. Luckily for us, most all of us on here live in the richest nations on earth, so we've got the best shot at making it through the correction alive. Really, there is research out there that says we are truly over the earth's carrying capacity already, quite interesting (and terrifying) stuff to read.

Yeah, I also believe we're way over the earth's carrying capacity. People really need to stop having so many damn kids, although I will admit I want more than two.

It's funny how humans want to expand to The Moon and to Mars eventually so that we can terraform them and colonize. My response is "What, destroying one planet wasn't enough?" I think the little green men above are going to get pissed off at us eventually but who am I? Maybe I've just had a few too many tonight. After all my birthday is in less than 48 hours!

Edit: Whoops, less than 24 hours

 

[Schrecken_Licht]

Here this past year has been colder than it has been in quite some time, and also a good deal wetter. Last summer (what summer? I swear it didn't FEEL like summer until sometime in July) I ran the A/C not because of heat but because of humidity; it really wasn't very hot but very, very humid. Granted, summers in this part of the country are always humid, but this past year was the worst.

Fall, especially November, was warmer than it usually is, and drier. But October and November were exceptions. A few days before Christmas we had 2 feet of snow, and ever since, save for the last 5 days or so, it's been pretty much below freezing day and night.

Part of the problem is that the timescale of a human lifetime is simply too short to really hazard much of a guess as to whether the climate is warmer, cooler, wetter, drier, etc, than "normal". I can recall very cold winters, some that had several feet of snow, and some that were warm and virtually no snow at all. And some summers that were hot as hell, and some that I hardly had the A/C on at all. I've seen quite a bit of "climate change" in my lifetime and I'm not quite 40!

I don't deny that humans have had negative impacts on the environment, even long before we discovered coal and oil. I also think that any possible impact on climate by humans should be studied on a continuing basis, because that's how science is supposed to work. Personally I think humans have little to no impact on climate due to burning fossil fuels, simply for many of the reasons that others have mentioned - huge warming periods before humans had anything but stone age technology, and large amounts of "greenhouse" gasses emitted by natural sources.
Most people don't understand that very, very few things in science are "settled" - to most all scientists evolution is absolutely true, but yet it is still considered to be a theory and it is continually being updated and the relationship of organisms to each other changes often. For instance, if a scientist 100 years ago said he thought that birds descended from dinosaurs, he'd be laughed out of whatever scientific circle he belonged to. But most paleontologists today do believe just that, based on evidence that has emerged in the last 100 years.

The problem with global warming, or "climate change" or whatever you call it, is that certain people do stand to make money, and many governments are fixing to enact draconian legislation that will make the lives of many people, especially the mid and lower classes, quite miserable. This is where the problem lies. There is a fine line between foot-dragging and acting with too much haste. The GW crowd wants to shoot first and ask questions later.

I'm all for independance from foreign oil and wise use of resources, but not the sort of things that will have deleterious effects on the lives of millions of people.

One other thing - the Al Gores of the world are going about things all the wrong way. People don't want the stick - the carrot always works far better. Offer me a light bulb that will save me energy and reduce my electric bill, but don't ban other types of light bulbs and then jack up my power bill artificially in order to force me to conserve. All that does is breed resentment in people.

 

[daguin]

Really, there is research out there that says we are truly over the earth's carrying capacity already, quite interesting (and terrifying) stuff to read.

Nature is NEVER kind when it resets a population density.

If y'all hate the idea of "oil wars", just wait for the resultant "water wars" as we continue pollute and salinate an ever decreasing ratio of "drinkable water vs. population." The amount of available, drinkable water decreases every year while we continue to consume more every year. The earth is doing its part to recycle the water in a fresh form. However, we are using and poisoning it faster than it can be recycled by the earth

This is just one of the aspects of our having already exceeded the capacity of the earth to support our population density.

Drought, famine, and the resultant diseases that can run rampant in a weakened and overcrowded population are nature's main tools to reset a population density. For the earth to be able to sustain us in perpetuity, our population would have to be reduced to >2 billion! That equates to <5 billion dead from drought, famine, disease, and war. . . . . and that would be the "good" outcome.

If the remaining population was too thinly disbursed to breed at replacement levels or inhereted a genetic weakness, we may just go the way of the saber-tooth.

Peace,
dave

 

[photonaholic]

At least the saber-tooth didn't piss in his own water hole

 

[daguin]

At least the saber-tooth didn't piss in his own water hole

Granted.

However, extinct is still extinct, no matter the cause

Peace,
dave

 

[Cyparagon]

There are PLENTY of emissions at the places where they produce the hydrogen

Yes, this is often true. Hydrogen can be extracted from methane though.

several researchers I've read have said from their work that we are already over the earth's carrying capacity, possibly by quite a bit.

That's why we have our infrastructure which supplies our needs. Without our water distribution facilities, highway network, GM crops, the earth would almost certainly be unable to sustain our population. Sure, there is a point at which even infrastructure may not be able to support us, but as long as we continue to better our infrastructure, the limit to our population grows.

What, destroying one planet wasn't enough?

The... green men will be angry with us... if we destroy our own barren moon?

One too many indeed.

 

[photonaholic]

Granted.

However, extinct is still extinct, no matter the cause

Peace,
dave

So true Dave.

Wouldn't this be the first time that a SPECIES inhabiting the planet brought on the ELE.

 

[daguin]

So true Dave.

Wouldn't this be the first time that a SPECIES inhabiting the planet brought on the ELE.

Nope. The original blue/green algae that thrived on the carbon dioxide atmosphere of this planet killed itself off. Its waste product was oxygen. It was so successful at overpopulating the planet that it tipped the atmospheric mix to have so much oxygen that it poisoned itself.

Of course, that alteration from CO2 to O2 allowed other species to thrive, just as our alterations will create the conditions that will allow some other species to thrive (as has happened many times before, although granted not usually via some self action).

Maybe we should all be worshiping the blue/green algae. It was they, after all, that created the environment that allowed us to eventually evolve.

Either that or Coyote. He is the one who pushed rocks through the clouds long enough to build the mountain from which all life on the planet descended wasn't he?

So little time. So many gods. :tinfoil:

Peace,
dave

 

[Tech_Junkie]

Where I live I've noticed that there is far fewer snow storms and inched since I was a kid. The temp change is only a couple of degrees, so what happens is the polar ice sheet is melting and dumping water into the worlds ocean currant. This in turn is changing the natural balances in the planet. This includes weather. Its a chain effect that is causing the issues, and not that your local weather is heating up. The natural balance also effect aquatic life, thus effecting our own food supply. We not only eat fish, we use it for fertilizer, natural oil, ect. This is why all, well most, scientists are worried. The clearest indication of the start of this is the majority of the polar ice sheet melted. Not over 10's of thousands of years, but withing decades. This is fact. Is it an emergency? That remains to be seen, but it is a real cause for concern. All those people who are telling you its fake, obviously have an agenda behind it. Also keep in mind the world is run by money, so you are going to have BS on both side. But this does not remove the fact that we may have jump started a global catastrophe.

 

[daguin]

But this does not remove the fact that we may have jump started a global catastrophe.

We may have acelerated it, but we didn't jump start it. This last global warming trend has been going on since just after the lowest average tempertature was achieved during the last ice age.

The earth has been erratically, but unerringly warming since then.

In order to understand global cycles, you must think in geologic time scales.

Peace,
dave

 

[mfo]

The sun seems to be getting hotter too. Research indicates that the Earth is not alone in the recent rise in temperatures over the past few thousands of years. Mars is also warming up it seems. Stars also do get hotter as they age so who knows...

 

[Jaseth]

One huge thing which none of you have mentioned, unless I somehow skipped a post, is the acidification of the ocean which may very well end up killing more than just the human race.
The pH levels are getting so low, and rapidly decreasing, that soon all sea creatures with shells will not be able to regenerate shell before it is eroded. This could potentially mean the end of all sea life, which then again would starve many birds, humans and other predators, starving other lifeforms, etc. We could be looking at a goodbye to a whole lot of the intelligent life on this planet.

Seb

 

[Tech_Junkie]

In order to understand global cycles, you must think in geologic time scales.

Peace,
dave

You are correct. I do study many things, but they dont always stick. :tinfoil:

The sun seems to be getting hotter too. Research indicates that the Earth is not alone in the recent rise in temperatures over the past few thousands of years. Mars is also warming up it seems. Stars also do get hotter as they age so who knows...

Ever notice how you can get a sun burn in under 20 minutes now? By the time you have grand kids you will have to coat them is sun screen every time they leave the house.

We are all truly screwed. :undecided: