GB #2: LaserMan (Dinodirect) FireDragon 250, 300, 500mW GroupBuy - CLOSED

[Jmillerdoc]

I fortunately used my corporate CC which I have a very good relationship with. Although I will take your advice I think it won't require much for them to issue a $340 refund. I am willing to give them a few more days in hopes they will do the right thing. If, however I receive a silly response like you received I believe my patience will have run out. Kath has been helpful and for her sake alone I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Please keep us posted on how things work out with tue CC dispute. I am interested to hear how it plays out.

 

[LPKath]

hello, greeting to you all, I am a representative of Laserman.com, LPKath. First, I would like to guarantee you all that we will deal this problem at your reasonable demand. Second, I should clarify that $10 coupon is not the only way to resolve problem, our after-sale is just trying to make a agreement with you, you may reject it, and stick to what you opinion, as RHD said, there would be some email communication, if you think this is useless, definitely tell the after-sale what's your point, surely, we will make our commitment. Third, as always, I would serve you all sincerely, If you feel not satisfied, tell me, I would try to negotiate with our after-sale department. be sure, I am always with you, since If no one buy our product, I can't make a penny.

 

[rhd]

EDIT: I see Kath just kind of said the same thing above me ^


Plexus:

I get what you're saying, but you do have to do a little back and forth with any laser sellers - or in my experience, most retailers online.

Whenever I've had issues, with any "discount" company (or eBay seller) there's always a little bit of "volleying" back and forth before you get to the solution you want.

The fact that they tossed out $10 as an initial suggestion really doesn't mean they aren't going to offer what is promised on their site. But you do need to give them a bit more opportunity to actually provide this resolution. One email in each direction really isn't fair. Everyone tries to get you to agree to something lower than their fallback position, that's just the norm.

Of course, that's really just my opinion here. I just organized the GB choices, and facilitated the thread. I have no interest in LM, and I'm not getting anything out of the process - so there's no difference to me either way. But my advice is pretty general here. I'd say the same thing if it were LM, DL, CNI, LaserGlow, or JetLasers, etc. You need to at least go through the back and forth a few more times I think

Cheers

 

[Jmillerdoc]

I just received a response from Lazerman. They asked if I would mind sending them pictures! Why! What the heck is a picture gonna prove? A picture of what? I told them I did mind. I told them to read their own return policy and issue an RMA number....they can take as many pictures of it they want when they get it back....I could easily take pictures of anything and send it to them, it does nothing to prove anything. Kath, please encourage them to issue an RMA number and provide a method for them to pay for the return shipping....

 

[rhd]

I just received a response from Lazerman. They asked if I would mind sending them pictures! Why! What the heck is a picture gonna prove? A picture of what? I told them I did mind. I told them to read their own return policy and issue an RMA number....they can take as many pictures of it they want when they get it back....I could easily take pictures of anything and send it to them, it does nothing to prove anything. Kath, please encourage them to issue an RMA number and provide a method for them to pay for the return shipping....

Guys, I think you've got to be a little bit more helpful.

I remember when I got really angry with DragonLasers over that 589 catastrophe (50mW unit was doing 20, and they refused to help me - it was really a big problem). It took a lot more than them asking for some photos etc, to get me to the stage of anger I eventually got to. There were all sorts of small initial requests like power testing info, etc.

But this (offering you a low initial settlement, and asking for photos), this really sounds par for the course. If anyone has had to return things to DealExtreme, FocalPrice, etc, you'll know. Sometimes they even ask you to send photos of the packaging that the stuff came in, but almost always they want to see the items, the damage, etc.

I think that's reasonable, isn't it? Remember, they don't know you personally, they don't know the difference between you (as a semi laser expert) and some kid spending his parent's money who broke a laser, or isn't testing it right, and just wants to complain. I'm sure they ask everyone to send photos - it just digs us a bit more because it seems like they're insulting us by questioning if we've done our testing right etc. But remember, most people who buy from LM probably DON'T know what they're doing We're a pretty small specialized market, so put yourself in their shoes - most of the time, they're dealing with the same newbish idiots that we get frustrated with too.

You can't take those kind of requests the wrong way. If they need photos, they need photos. Just send them the darn photos. Why take a *principalled* stance against something like that? Take 3 minutes, snap a photo or two, and shoot it back to them with your reply, to see what they do. It seems pretty reasonable to me that they'd want to see something - some sort of visual data to substantiate the issue - especially since they don't actually know you, or know that you have a good reputation in the laser community and know what you're doing.

Now, if you guys don't ultimately get helped here, I'll be the first to say "alright, that's it, no more group-buys, lets forget about LasersMan", but you've got to play the game for now and see if that's actually where this ends up. Give them the opportunity to actually fulfill their guarantee, so we can see if they actually will. You've got lots of time to dispute with the CC company - there's no time limit approaching on that front.

My two cents. Largely, because I'd really like to see this play out, and figure out whether LM will ultimately stand behind their product.

 

[plexus]

Guys, I think you've got to be a little bit more helpful.

I remember when I got really angry with DragonLasers over that 589 catastrophe (50mW unit was doing 20, and they refused to help me - it was really a big problem). It took a lot more than them asking for some photos etc, to get me to the stage of anger I eventually got to. There were all sorts of small initial requests like power testing info, etc.

But this (offering you a low initial settlement, and asking for photos), this really sounds par for the course. If anyone has had to return things to DealExtreme, FocalPrice, etc, you'll know. Sometimes they even ask you to send photos of the packaging that the stuff came in, but almost always they want to see the items, the damage, etc.

I think that's reasonable, isn't it? Remember, they don't know you personally, they don't know the difference between you (as a semi laser expert) and some kid spending his parent's money who broke a laser, or isn't testing it right, and just wants to complain. I'm sure they ask everyone to send photos - it just digs us a bit more because it seems like they're insulting us by questioning if we've done our testing right etc. But remember, most people who buy from LM probably DON'T know what they're doing We're a pretty small specialized market, so put yourself in their shoes - most of the time, they're dealing with the same newbish idiots that we get frustrated with too.

You can't take those kind of requests the wrong way. If they need photos, they need photos. Just send them the darn photos. Why take a *principalled* stance against something like that? Take 3 minutes, snap a photo or two, and shoot it back to them with your reply, to see what they do. It seems pretty reasonable to me that they'd want to see something - some sort of visual data to substantiate the issue - especially since they don't actually know you, or know that you have a good reputation in the laser community and know what you're doing.

Now, if you guys don't ultimately get helped here, I'll be the first to say "alright, that's it, no more group-buys, lets forget about LasersMan", but you've got to play the game for now and see if that's actually where this ends up. Give them the opportunity to actually fulfill their guarantee, so we can see if they actually will. You've got lots of time to dispute with the CC company - there's no time limit approaching on that front.

My two cents. Largely, because I'd really like to see this play out, and figure out whether LM will ultimately stand behind their product.

I absolutely 100% disagree, rhd. The reasons are obvious: at this point LPKath is requesting that I "fight" with them to get their attention and she is working it from her angle. Frankly, its wasting my time and based on the terms that I entered this with (their policies) I am now being treated as if those policies didn't exist. If their return policy was not as they stated I would not have purchased from them knowing there are all kinds of things that can go wrong here.

Add to that its essentially $400 on the line. not chump change. and I am the one that stands to lose here, not them, if I don't pursue a CC dispute. I am willing by my own good nature and generosity to try this angle that LPKath has requested but if this is not VERY QUICKLY moving towards resolution, on my terms, I will initiate a dispute and put this behind me.

Regardless, either way, I will never do business with Lasersman or their affiliates again.

Honestly, I think your advice to give them some slack is quite unreasonable and surprising. Then again I know you have skin in the game with them but in the end they are very clearly and quickly showing themselves to be untrustworthy culprits and the more we pander to this kind of business practice the more they will take advantage of it.

I have done just as you suggested rhd, I have them the opportunity to fulfill their promise based on their return policy. and they didn't. but i don't hear you saying, as you said you would, "alright, that's it, no more group-buys, lets forget about LasersMan". so now what do you want? you want me to take this to some arbitrary point? why bother? they broke their very own clearly written policies. I'm really not sure what you want to get out of this.

Regardless, what I want to get out of it has not changed: a Firedragon that produces >500mw with no IR in its advertised duty cycle. I gave about $400 to get that. I neither have the $400 or the laser. THere is a return policy there that was part of what I purchased. i am not getting that either. THe policy did not state anything about $10 coupon, about what tone to use when emailing them (as per LPKath), that it might take a few emails to get their attention etc. On the contrary the policy i bought said email them within 7 days and they will give a full refund including return shipping.

Its a pretty clear breach of the implicit deal and policies. But no matter, I am not here to convince you to do or not do business with them in the future. Please don't try and convince me to give up my rights as a consumer.

 

[rhd]

I am willing by my own good nature and generosity to try this angle that LPKath has requested but if this is not VERY QUICKLY moving towards resolution, on my terms, I will initiate a dispute and put this behind me.

That's all you've got to do. Give it a shot, play the game for a day or two more, see how it shakes out. When you've dealt with a lot of cheap chinese gadget sellers, you realize that they basically have no margin, and will try any tactic in the book to divert you from claiming whatever full restitution is deserved. Just gotta hold your ground, and see where their line really is. If their line truly isn't where it should be, and they're not willing to "make it right" after all the foreplay is dispensed with, the you turn to backup remedies like disputes etc.

Honestly, I think your advice to give them some slack is quite unreasonable and surprising. Then again I know you have skin in the game with them but in the end they are very clearly and quickly showing themselves to be untrustworthy culprits and the more we pander to this kind of business practice the more they will take advantage of it.

You're an @$$, you know that?
(And a dumb one)

I take ZERO compensation from LM (or DD before them) for my help in organizing these two groupbuys. The MOST I get out of them is the benefit of buying my laser for THE EXACT SAME PRICE as everyone else in the groupbuy. I have as much "skin in the game" as you or anyone else here. In fact, less, because the timing was inconvenient for me so I didn't even jump in on this groupbuy. Last time around, they also gave me a $10 gift card to DinoDirect, which I found out about AFTER the fact, and promptly disclosed to EVERYONE in the thread, and also, NEVER ACTUALLY USED. I don't have any affiliate or referral stuff going on, and I pretty regularly criticize other members who pull those types of shenanigans.

I've helped them with these groupbuys because it's better than the poorly targeted fake-groupbuys we used to see for 445s that nobody wanted. DD sponsored the site way back when, and they'd offer "discounts" on lasers that nobody in the hobby community wanted, and we'd all criticize them heavily for that. Hence, the idea of getting a more useful *real* groupbuy organized.

But to say that I have "skin in the game" ?
You're an @$$.

 

[plexus]

That's all you've got to do. Give it a shot, play the game for a day or two more, see how it shakes out. When you've dealt with a lot of cheap chinese gadget sellers, you realize that they basically have no margin, and will try any tactic in the book to divert you from claiming whatever full restitution is deserved. Just gotta hold your ground, and see where there line really is. If their line truly isn't where it should be, and they're not willing to "make it right" after all the foreplay is dispensed with, the you turn to backup remedies like disputes etc.



You're an @$$, you know that?
(And a dumb one)

I take ZERO compensation from LM (or DD before them) for my help in organizing these two groupbuys. The MOST I get out of them is the benefit of buying my laser for THE EXACT SAME PRICE as everyone else in the groupbuy. I have as much "skin in the game" as you or anyone else here. In fact, less, because the timing was inconvenient for me so I didn't even jump in on this groupbuy. Last time around, they also gave me a $10 gift card to DinoDirect, which I found out about AFTER the fact, and promptly disclosed to EVERYONE in the thread, and also, NEVER ACTUALLY USED. I don't have any affiliate or referral stuff going on, and I pretty regularly criticize other members who pull those types of shenanigans.

I've helped them with these groupbuys because it's better than the poorly targeted fake-groupbuys we used to see for 445s that nobody wanted. DD sponsored the site way back when, and they'd offer "discounts" on lasers that nobody in the hobby community wanted, and we'd all criticize them heavily for that. Hence, the idea of getting a more useful *real* groupbuy organized.

But to say that I have "skin in the game" ?
You're an @$$.

Woohoo! Harsh, rhd, harsh! Name calling and profanity. well done!

I took offence to you suggesting I give Lasersman more of a chance to follow through on their policies when they clearly violated them right off the bat. My expectation was that you, as a laser enthusiast like myself, would encourage me to do whatever is necessary to get my money back. You stated yourself that the only thing you get out of this is "the benefit of buying my laser for the exact same price as everyone else in the group buy". that, rhd, is skin in the game. and that was the skin in the game i was initially referring to. it appears you are more interested in maintaing the ability to get a discount rather than be supportive of your fellow enthusiasts who are being ripped off by this company. ok, no big deal. as long as we know where you stand.

so be it. i don't hold you responsible at all. and i would never think to call you names on a public forum. but i will stand my ground on this and understand now that i can't count on you for support in, at least, this group buy you organized. that's fine i am more than willing and able to handle this on my own. its not the first time.

sorry you feel the way you do. i guess you'd feel differently than i if you got a broken laser (TEM01) and were told by the company you bought it from to accept a $10 coupon. that's fine if that's acceptable to you. it's not to me.

 

[rhd]

Woohoo! Harsh, rhd, harsh! Name calling and profanity. well done!

Sorry dude, but you deserve it.

I'm trying to help the forum with these groupbuys, and only ran round 2 because I had received at least one PM every single week since the first groupbuy finished, from different members asking when we'd run a second round. Members wanted more FireDragons at < $200.

So I do it, at a time that isn't convenient for me anyway, and then some jerk comes along and accuses me of "having skin in the game", when I'm only trying to offer some advice on how to effectively deal with a company that I have no personal connection to myself, and after I'm only helping to facilitate these things in the first place for everyone else's benefit. I get zero / nada / no benefit above what anyone else in this forum gets, and as mentioned, this time, less.

So, yes - name calling and censored profanity. Maybe "jerk" would be more fitting. You are a jerk for that comment you made about me, and I'm calling you out on it directly.

 

[cheech226]

i'm very tempted to cancel my order. part of me wants to give them a chance to shine here and send me a great laser, the other part of me lives in the real world.

 

[Jmillerdoc]

This is the reply I got from Lazerman today...it doesn't make any sense to me. I sent them an email explaining everything that was wrong with the laser. They sent the email requesting photos....I sent them one back stating I did mind sending photos and that they should immediately issue an RMA for it's return...below is the response I got back today.

Please make sense of it for me...

Thanks*for*your*email!
As*for*what*you*said,the*item*has*been*shipped*out*on*11/23*and*which*will*normally*need*a*7-14*working*days*to*send*
the*item.Hope*for*your*understanding*and*please*feel*free*to*contact*with*us*should*you*have*any*problem.*
*
*
*
Best*Regards,
summer


I don't understand what the heck they are talking about. Every email I sent I included the order number from their website.
RHD....I am listening closely to your advice and am will to try this your way for the time being. Maybe you could send a message on our behalf?

Cheers!

 

[plexus]

So, yes - name calling and censored profanity. Maybe "jerk" would be more fitting. You are a jerk for that comment you made about me, and I'm calling you out on it directly.

fine so we think each other are jerks. i can live with that.

by the way I see you negative repped me. I am not going to neg rep you because that is not what the rep system is for or about and its frankly childish to do so. however you have stated that what you want to get out of this is a discount and that equates to real money and that my friend is skin in the game.

now onto more important things such as getting my money back from this shady company.

 

[plexus]

This is the reply I got from Lazerman today...it doesn't make any sense to me. I sent them an email explaining everything that was wrong with the laser. They sent the email requesting photos....I sent them one back stating I did mind sending photos and that they should immediately issue an RMA for it's return...below is the response I got back today.

Please make sense of it for me...

Thanks*for*your*email!
As*for*what*you*said,the*item*has*been*shipped*out*on*11/23*and*which*will*normally*need*a*7-14*working*days*to*send*
the*item.Hope*for*your*understanding*and*please*feel*free*to*contact*with*us*should*you*have*any*problem.*
*
*
*
Best*Regards,
summer


I don't understand what the heck they are talking about. Every email I sent I included the order number from their website.
RHD....I am listening closely to your advice and am will to try this your way for the time being. Maybe you could send a message on our behalf?

Cheers!

That is exactly what I got as well. Then I emailed back without all the detail saying "it doesn't work i want a refund" and they offered me the $10 coupon. My take on it was that the person who got the email has no knowledge or focus on customer service and send out this canned emailed as if the issue is the item has not arrived. its like they didn't even read what we emailed them. the reply I got back (posted in a previous post) then offers the $10 coupon. again, seems like a canned response. so i have no confidence at all that anyone with a brain and sense of responsibility is going to take care of us.

so now I am pandering to LPKath and emailed them again clearly stating that i either want the promised laser or a refund at no cost to myself. I will give it till tomorrow and then I will call my CC company. I suggest you do the same. My experience has been that if a company doesn't acknowledge their refund policy right from the start, you will get sucked into their communication nightmare. worse is they send you another laser and that doesn't work and that will make the dispute with the CC harder because then there is more stuff to track. once you have a clear case its best just to engage the CC company on a dispute because its easier, clearer and faster for them to deal with it if there is less correspondence and back and forth going on.

 

[rhd]

That is exactly what I got as well. Then I emailed back without all the detail saying "it doesn't work i want a refund" and they offered me the $10 coupon.

huh?

so now I am pandering to LPKath and emailed them again clearly stating that i either want the promised laser or a refund at no cost to myself. I will give it till tomorrow and then I will call my CC company. I suggest you do the same. My experience has been that if a company doesn't acknowledge their refund policy right from the start, you will get sucked into their communication nightmare. worse is they send you another laser and that doesn't work and that will make the dispute with the CC harder because then there is more stuff to track. once you have a clear case its best just to engage the CC company on a dispute because its easier, clearer and faster for them to deal with it if there is less correspondence and back and forth going on.

If it was me - and it's not - but if it was me, I would be trying to get them to issue an RMA, before wanting to go the CC route. It's easy to dispute a non-receipt. It may also be possible to dispute goods that aren't up to spec. But in my mind, the thought of having to explain the nuances of power output to a CC company, is not appealing. If you can get LM to resolve the problem, that's the best route to go (I think). I say "if", because I have no idea what they'll do. Apart from Kath, I don't know them, and they don't know me. I'm also fairly certain that Kath is a saleswomen, while you guys are probably dealing with customer service / returns. So, there's probably some communication disconnect between those departments. I'm not sure whether the people you're talking to will necessarily know that you're from an enthusiast community that knows what they're doing. That information might not have trickled through.

For the record, if you guys who have ordered 500mW units, don't get 500mW units, I think you should fiercely pursue your case and make sure that you either get 500mW units, or get the opportunity to return yours for a full refund. I'm not saying cut them slack, I'm just encouraging you to exhaust your options with the seller, before you go other routes. That's advice I would give anyone, any time, whether dealing with a chinese website or another seller on the forum. My suggestions:

1) The fact that you're (in my opinion) entitled to the above, doesn't mean that in practice you're going to get it with ease. You may have to push a bit and be persistent. That's just how it is - I'm not advocating for the virtues of reality, I'm just trying to articulate what reality is. So push.

2) I would also encourage you to be very straight forward and concise. Language barrier is a big deal. An example of good concise wording:
----------------------------
Hi,

Your website says:
"Satisfaction Guarantee. If you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, return it within 7 days for a full refund. Absolutely no questions asked!"
"Power Guarantee. We guarantee you get more than you pay for. If your laser does not reach or exceed our advertised specifications, we’ll give you a full refund."

I received my order (#123456789) two days ago. It was advertised as 500mW. I have tested it and it only reaches 350mW. I have attached a power measurement chart and a photo of the testing.

I want a full refund.

Thank you,
Janey Jimplin
-----------------------------

Obviously you shouldn't cut and paste my example, but you get the picture. Three basics:
1) Remind them of their policy
2) Show them what your problem is
3) Ask them for the remedy stated in their policy

If you get a different offer back, think about whether it makes sense. If it doesn't, say no, tell them again, clearly, without any extra complicated language, that you want a full refund. See what they say.

That's my suggested approach.

 

[jcranmer]

I'm very interested to see how this turns out. If I had been able to order one of these in this round, it would have been the 500mw one, so I'd likely be in the same boat as you all.

I do have to agree though, that you should expect some give and take with them, much like you would do with any company you are dealing with over the internet. I'm not saying you should settle for less then a full refund though, but I would have went into this already knowing that if I were to request a refund, there would be a certain level of hassle involved, regardless of what the stated return policy is.

Please try to keep in mind these folks are located on the other side of the planet, and speak a different language then most of us do. That's not an excuse, but just the reality of what you are dealing with.

I'm sure I might be angry and feel different about it if I actually was involved with this GB though. :shrug: I just think that getting too worked up about this is going to cause more stress for yourself in the long run.

 

[plexus]

(snip...)
Your website says:
"Satisfaction Guarantee. If you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, return it within 7 days for a full refund. Absolutely no questions asked!"
"Power Guarantee. We guarantee you get more than you pay for. If your laser does not reach or exceed our advertised specifications, we’ll give you a full refund."

rhd, where did you get these quotes? are those actually from their site or did you create those as an example? if they are on their site can you post the links to where those statements are? that would help. thanks.