FAKE 150mW Nichia diodes being sold

[IgorT]

I tried to post this before leaving, but the forum was acting up. Don't recall everything i wanted to say back then, but here's the most important bits...


I tried to squeeze as much info out of my Nichia contact as possible, but no luck. They would not even give a professional oppinion on the most likelly power rating of a diode based on a graph, because, well, in their own words: "[FONT=ＭＳ Ｐゴシック]Any our comments could encourage such outrageous diodes."... I was really hoping for more..

They did however say, that "there is no such thing as a 150mW single-mode 405nm Nichia diode". The highest power they have for sale anywhere is 120mW. A datasheet for it is available on their web page.


I also got prices for a single piece sample or even trays of 100 or 200 of these and other diodes, but they were not nice... :cryyy:


For a moment i thought the 100pcs price was nice, until i noticed the funny way they wrote the number, and calculated it to mean ~$1400 USD a piece.

One can easily also buy 50mW 455nm diodes, if one can afford them. They would be amazing, they would probably perform as good as PHRs! But it will probably be cheaper to rip them out of laser TV projectors in the near future... :undecided:



In any case, while they tried not to give any specific info, they also tried to make very sure i would understand, that they don't work with any outside companies, and that there is no diode that would match these specs.


Which brings me back to my original conclusion. The diodes are not 150mW and they are not from Nichia. Or if they were from Nichia they are of a MUCH lower rated power - an old obsolete low power model, that is no longer in production...[/FONT] Altho i am used to seeing rounder beams from Nichia diodes even at powers lower than PHRs...





I was promissed some test results from the obscure "150mW Nichia" manufacturer weeks ago, but so far no news on this part. Altho i still think Steve's supplier was scammed, as they seem to be really trying...

I was also promissed a Sony diode made for 4x BR writer drives. A diode which, while not really competitive with what we already have, at least a diode of known specs, that would provide some good baselines for comparison...


I do hope they deliver at least on this promisse.. Testing diodes of known specs can be very informative!


P.S. If i should actually get this Sony diode i will need a 3.8mm "press-fit heatsink"... If anyone can help out, please let me know..

 

[TheMonk]

I de-can the Nichia 150mW Diode and comparing it to the Phr-803T.

I am suprise to dicover that they look nearly identical, judging by the die size there is no way the Nichia 150mW is capable to output 150mW CW.

Nichia front view

Nichia top view

Nichia on left and PHR on right front view

Nichia on left and PHR on right top view

 

[pullbangdead]

<Off-Topic>Nice pics!! How do you de-can those so cleanly, and any particular tips for such nice macros?</Off-Topic>

Back on topic: those die do look a lot alike, but you really can't anything definitive from just looking at the die like that. The ridges could be any size really; the length does look the same, but the width, quantum well dimensions, everything could be different.

As far as the packaging itself, to me it pretty much says they were made by the same company. Since there's really only 4 companies that really make these things, it's not hard to believe at all that any 2 given diodes could be made at the same company, and therefore be packaged on the exact same tools, even if the diodes have different internal structures.

It is intriguing that they look so identical, but I wouldn't say it's definitive. And die length could be indicative, but there are several internal factors that can be in play. It's easy to get orders of magnitude of difference in performance out of different die that are exactly the same dimensions.

 

[HIMNL9]

Uhm, it's just my impression, or not just the die, but also the wiring points, shapes, soldering positions and sizes, are identical ?

And also the "holder" of the die, and the support of it to the case .....

Ofcourse, it may also mean nothing, but for different currents and powers, can be expected some differences, also minimal, in the die at least ..... no macro of the dies ?

 

[brtaman]

Those are indeed some great macros TheMonk! Olympus really have their act together as far as macro is concerned.

I have just read through this thread and also browsed the opposing thread on that other forum. A few things are quite clear:

-I agree 100% with Igor as far as these diodes being far-bellow spec. I mean just looking the Ith gives a decent hint...imo. Not to mention all the other evidence that ha been gathered in the meantime (Monks die shots etc.). Igors diode testing has helped this hobby a great deal in determining "safe" currents for diodes to be run at, he has invested a great ammount of time and money into the hobby and made it easier for other members. He is not here to rip anyone off or make someone look bad. The only reason he posted this thread IMO was to prevent other members from repeating his own mistake.


-Frostythedadman is in my opinion just trying to protect his friend and compatriot on their forum, this is where all his emotions on the subject are coming from and perhaps preventing him from really looking at Igors results in a clear and coherent manner. We really would get much farther with this investigation if everyone just kept their cool and looked at the facts.

 

[IgorT]

Well, the test results DID indicate the striking similarities to PHRs. OR maybe 4x's at most.

Do you perhaps have a decanned 4x and 6x you could compare these to?

I think i have a decanned 4x somewhere... I could open up some 6x's too i guess, i have two with a broken window around.....

 

[IgorT]

Back on topic: those die do look a lot alike, but you really can't anything definitive from just looking at the die like that. The ridges could be any size really; the length does look the same, but the width, quantum well dimensions, everything could be different.

Yes, visually we can't really tell much from macros alone (even tho they are great). Under a microscope would be better, but like you said, there are too many things to consider.

But it would be nice to compare the dies visually to 4x's and 6x's which we know well by now. Maybe even a poofed BDR-S03... :angel:

 

[TheMonk]

<Off-Topic> I put it on the lathe and used parting blade.:crackup: The Olympus styles 1010 has Super Macro feature but the most importing thing is light source when taking Macro.<Off-Topic>
Here is the best I can do with my camera. The die on the Nichia does look a little taller than the PHR so I would think it's little more powerful than the PHR.
The die on the Sony PS (3 in one) diode is so tiny it can puts out 5~15mW.
The die on the Long Open Can has much more volume than the Short Open Can and the LOC is over 50% more powerful than the SOC.:can:

Nichia on left PHR-803T on right.

 

[IgorT]

I have just read through this thread and also browsed the opposing thread on that other forum. A few things are quite clear:

There is an "opposing" thread?

I should read it and see what it says.
But problem is, for me every aspect of this hobby has to do with science, while from Frosty's replies, i would expect only emotional responses if i were to post anything there.

And because of that any real arguments as well as plain facts would be made completelly pointless.

The only reason he posted this thread IMO was to prevent other members from repeating his own mistake.

I did not see my testing as a mistake, i saw it as an experiment. I knew there was a risk, altho i thought the risk was lower, and i was hoping for better results because of my earlier experience...

Afterwards, i wished i would have spent less money on this experiment, but then i wouldn't know for sure... I'd still have to consider the possibility i got a damaged or defective diode by pure chance.


I WANTED the results to be good, i WANTED to believe the diodes were real, and because of that i was even more dissapointed afterwards.

But i didn't complain too much, cos i knew it was my own fault.

-Frostythedadman is in my opinion just trying to protect his friend and compatriot on their forum

I did not realize that Steve was in need of any defending.

In fact i thought i was defending him myself, when i said around 20 times, that i am 100% sure he was ripped off, and later even that his supplier was probably ripped off by their supplier (god only knows at which point the actual ripping-off took place, but by now i know for sure it did not happen at these two ends).



I've been corresponding with the supplier for a few weeks, and i have to say they are really trying hard to solve the situation and to arrange real 150mW and even 200mW CW diodes.

I am expecting more news on the 15th, when their supplier promissed new diode samples. I think i might even get some samples for testing, and if those turn out to be real, people will see the difference compared to the fake ones!


And this is what i've been trying to do from the very start:
1. At first i was trying to help Steve proove to his supplier that he won't be fooled with fake diodes. (I sent him all the graphs and explanations, so that he could show them to his supplier and let them know, that we won't be fooled again!)
Hopefully also help him get his money back from said supplier! (And if this would work, i don't see the problem in reimbursing the customers - BUT i also said that i would not ask for anything back UNLESS Steve gets reimbursed FIRST!)

And three or four weeks later, AFTER DrLava (and several others) told me "You can now get diodes better than GGWs fresh from a tray" and then me showing DrLava my test results and him asking me if i warned people about this (and realizing that said diodes were still being sold as 150mW CW):

2. Trying to warn people not to buy these diodes expecting 8x or even just 6x-like results.

Unfortunatelly, it is a FACT that the diodes can not deliver 8x or even 6x-like results. No one can dispute that!

I don't care what the excuse, you can't set these diodes to 150-200mW after a plastic lens and expect them to live for any useful amount of time (something which you CAN do with 6x's)!


And if i say that, i don't see how anyone can be offended by it. It's a simple fact!

And i really don't think people should be paying $55 for ~50mW diodes (or MAYBE 4x-like (~75mW at most) diodes) overrated by two or even three times!


Most of all i was hoping that the supplier would take responsibility for the problem, REIMBURSE Steve for the diodes, and MAYBE, just MAYBE even get us REAL 150mW CW diodes!


And if the latter was to happen, i would gladly accept the finantial loss, if only i could then get real 150mW CW diodes!




But no matter what my findings would be, i would let people know what they can and can not expect from the diodes (what currents/powers to set them to), something which i would determine through destructive testing, just like i did with all other diodes i tested so far...




P.S. I have to say that the cooperation i received from the supplier was commendable! They are not offended by the test results, they are trying hard to find real diodes, and they really want to solve the situation!

And if they can do this, i think it will all have been worth it in the end!

 

[IgorT]

Don't shoot the messenger...

Jerry

LOL, can't believe i didn't notice this earlier!


So i can still get three SF-AW diodes for the three "1"50mW "Nichia"s?

 

[lasersbee]

I don't know... I didn't buy any... you'll need to speak
with the seller...:undecided:

Jerry

 

[IgorT]

I wish he would reply to one of the many emails i sent him..


EDIT: These smileys SUCK, can we have the old ones back PLEASE?

My emoticons can't even express how they feel.

 

[lasersbee]

Why don't you just post your question on the other Forum..:thinking:
There is a chat box as well...

Jerry

 

[IgorT]

Why don't you just post your question on the other Forum..:thinking:
There is a chat box as well...

Jerry

Because Frosty showed me the attitude of LE with his emotional outbursts..

I fear no one there will listen to facts. :undecided:


Basically, i got worried that i will be attacked immediatelly if i as much as make an appearance there... That i won't be allowed to post what i know to be a fact!


I just wanted to help Steve proove the diodes he was sold had "fake" over spec ratings, by a factor of three!


I was hoping this would result in him getting his money back....


I was NOT hoping that he would hate me for posting my test results, i always posted results of my diode tests and my oppinions on these threads...


Basically i was expecting a number of people to flame me, just for thinking i am actually helping Steve out!

 

[jayrob]

I'll bet your right about being attacked if not worse over there Igor...

I'm not normally one to bash or even get involved in any 'drama', but I must say that I was treated very rudely when I posted a couple of my kit threads in their BST section.

He won't admit it, but he buried my Pocket Mini kit thread immediately. (but first he did not let it show for a week or so) And later, when I got some conversation going in a different thread, the owner took that thread, and merged it into a different thread!

This completely dissolved the conversation I had going! When I called him on it, he gave some lame excuse that it was because I had already posted the beam shots in a couple of other threads. (so what) No need to pull the plug on my conversation and basically delete the thread by merging it into another!

I had said 'you will probably delete these posts of mine calling you out on this'. And he replied that he would never do that...

Two weeks later, that entire conversation where I called him out on that action, was completely deleted!

VERY STRANGE! VERY RUDE! I did nothing to warrant this kind of treatment. I believe he did not want any attention going towards my kits and stuff.

I never really said anything after that, but I think it should be known. And yes, it still bothers me. And because of that treatment, I don't trust him...

 

[IgorT]

See, this is what i fear when i think of LE now!
And i only wanted to HELP STEVE!!!!

I still haven't requested any money back, nor will i if these thing keeps happening...


Here i was ALWAYS allowed to post my test results, no mods would edit or delete my threads, no one would attack my findings.
This is why i like LPF and it's members. And Jay's bad experience is why i fear LE.


I wish it was different, so i could talk to Steve....
I sent him MULTIPLE emails, i don't think i ever saw a reply.

But i could be wrong.. I was away several weeks helping my GF move to a new appartment, after her family lost their house.
I hope i didn't miss any emails! I'll double check!



But seriously, Steve, if you are reading this by any chance, i just wanted to be your friend!

I NEVER wanted to cause you ANY finantial loss, i just wanted to warn people not to buy more diodes.
And help you proove to your supplier that you won't be fooled...


And if you are a fair person (and i still hope you are!) you should not want the diodes sold to more unsuspecting people anyway...