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FrozenGate by Avery

An Apology for Everyone

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InfinitusEquitas said:
No they will not.

The question is why aren't you able to bring the account back to positive if by your own admission you haven't even ordered all the parts needed to complete all orders?

What everyone suspects it means is you NEED more money to complete or refund existing orders, because you already spent it.

Confirm that is the case, and lay out a plan on how you plan to get people their money back. Don't expect anyone to want any laser from you at this point.
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If I understand correctly, I think he's saying that the money the customers paid him to buy parts is still in the paypal account, but is now frozen by paypal until the claims go through, which means the paypal money is not currently accessible to buy the parts to complete the orders. With the money frozen for the time being, he can't send it back himself as a refund and he can't use it to buy parts to complete orders. With no access to the paypal money, and no money coming in for orders (with the website gone), there is no way to buy parts or to issue refunds.
 
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mel0n2 said:
Uh so I logged in today only to find that I got that disturbing email. Do you think sandpaper will be enough to scratch the images out of my eyes?
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I got it too, and so did most others here. If you blind yourself with your laser, you'll never see that image again! I was certainly tempted :whistle:
 
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Wow joker, it sure is a mystery why your paypal is in negative balance.

*not*

That negative number is clients trying to get their money back for your SCAMS. You have to pay off that negative balance eventually and the money must go through to people who have made the claims. Failing to pay this negative balance debt will result in termination of your paypal account, and committing FRAUD, which would be reported to your country's authorities and have you charged 100 times the amount you have due right now and now, possibly, jail time.

This is not a small issue any more joker. Own up to your responsibilities.

We ALL have a life. We ALL have to pay for our shit, cars, rent, everything.

You're using OUR money that we could use to pay for all of that too. But since you're a selfish fraud you're stealing other people's money.

You're stealing thousands of dollars from people. Good luck getting out of this in, it would really suck ass to be in your position right now. And my regards to anyone who has lost money to him, I sincerely hope you get it back.
 
LEDbeam said:
With the money frozen for the time being, he can't send it back himself as a refund and he can't use it to buy parts to complete orders.
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Yup. The problem compounded by the fact that he already spent the profits on the unfilled orders.

Only workable solution I see would be to take a loan to cover the balance.
 
@thejoker301

One possible idea if the money is already gone. What if you took out a small loan, just enough to cover the parts needed for the outstanding orders. That would allow you to build and ship the orders that are currently owed to customers. Then, after the customer received his or her order, he or she would cancel the dispute. This would make sure each person received what they paid for and then allow you to repay the loan with the unfrozen money after each order was received by it's owner.
 
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Joker is basically saying that he's been spending the profit portion of his orders before actually getting the orders out. This would normally leave him with money for the parts, but he got really backed up and customers started filing paypal disputes over the wait. This locked up his money for parts, and he also cannot refund people their money in full because he's probably spent half of it. Quite the sticky situation he's gotten into.

Eitan, assuming that you want to fix this, you're gonna need to take out a loan or borrow money from family and either pay your customers their refunds or get their damn orders out. Asking people to cancel their claims so you can use the money to finish their orders is unreasonable. It leaves them with no protection at all because you cannot reopen a paypal claim. Believe it or not, we're not all out to screw you here. We just want our items or our money. If my order actually shows up at my door and everything works I'm perfectly happy to send the money back.
 
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I don't think the excuses hold up either. By continuing to accept orders even though you knew perfectly well you weren't going to be able to deliver in due time, or at all, and stringing people along, you've crossed the line of being guilty of a crime and gross negligence, rather than just having the business fail in an honest way.

If someone broke into your house, stole your valuables and spent it all, then said that "I have no money so I can't pay you back. What can I do?", would you simply accept that and let it be? Of course not. You need to pay your customers back even if it means indebting yourself. You are 100% responsible for this situation and you need to make it right.
 
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It seems like the complaints and failures to deliver were getting worse and worse.

Elly was a test to see how long it would take, but around 7-8 weeks a mod closed the thread and Elly to this day is out the money and still has no laser.

Were there fake tracking number - YES, excuses - YES , promises broken - YES, refund - NO

After joker repays what he stole he should be banned, not for stealing peoples money, but for the other rules he broke.
 
RedCowboy said:
It seems like the complaints and failures to deliver were getting worse and worse.

Elly was a test to see how long it would take, but around 7-8 weeks a mod closed the thread and Elly to this day is out the money and still has no laser.

Were there fake tracking number - YES, excuses - YES , promises broken - YES, refund - NO

After joker repays what he stole he should be banned, not for stealing peoples money, but for the other rules he broke.
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I only got particularly mad when I was given a fake tracking # a few weeks ago and realized that my items had never shipped to begin with. Even if something is delayed, lying to customers is one of the worst things you can do.
 
Thejoker301 said:
Was not here for a few days.

Look , I can not and will not return the money.

I am willing to ship the items if the money get back into the account.

This is how it goes basically , I have profit from each laser. This profit is spendable. I can not keep it in my account for 6 months.

These lasers are custom made.

I do not know how it works in the US. But here when you got to someone to make something custom for you ( furniture , exhaust system etc ... ) you pay %100 ahead or %50 ahead at least and that is only if you know the guy personally.

Imagine you pay someone. And it takes 3-4 times more time to make the project done. This guy got to pay rent , and he got to live too. Is that right ? yes it is. So he can spend his profit and keep the money he needs for the project to be finished. ( this amount is lower the amount that he got paid for ).

Now , a customer comes and make a claim ( lets say he paid by PayPal ). Now the business owner will get into a negative balance and will not be able to complete the order.

I do not live from the air around. I drink , I eat , I got a car , I got rent to pay for. I got another rent to pay for the office.

So I can not keep the whole amount in my account. I got like 50 orders to make which about 30-40 got canceled by PayPal which means the money got on hold. I have parts for about 20 orders. I had enough money in my account to finish those 30 more orders. But it got out because of those claims and disputes.

In the real world , you can not do that. You can not cancel an order which is custom made per order even if a delay was caused. This just bad business.

I am still going to ship 20 orders. The rest of the money have been taken and I just can not and do not see why I should re-pay for them. Do not order if you can not wait. If you did order something , and it got delayed , you do not have to buy again from the same guy.

Over 50 last order and 40 disputes out of 3000-5000 lasers I built and sold over here and I can prove it. I became a scammer ? it is even not %1. Would you buy from someone on eBay with %99 feedback ? I would.

:beer:
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You're still playing the victim, after all of this? Give me a break. Actually, I'd prefer my money back, but a break is a nice close second.

Thejoker301 said:
I could deliver them. It takes more time than usual sometimes. And in this case a lot more. What is wrong in that ? it is not as good. it is a bit annoying but what can I do ?

If they would not open the disputes I would have completed them. Understood ?
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Thejoker301 said:
I do not have the money. I can not refund them. PayPal will not do it too. I am going to make contact with PayPal soon and solve this.
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Yeah right.

RedCowboy said:
It seems like the complaints and failures to deliver were getting worse and worse.

Elly was a test to see how long it would take, but around 7-8 weeks a mod closed the thread and Elly to this day is out the money and still has no laser.

Were there fake tracking number - YES, excuses - YES , promises broken - YES, refund - NO

After joker repays what he stole he should be banned, not for stealing peoples money, but for the other rules he broke.
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I'm glad my experience has been helpful, no sarcasmos.

Rokakku said:
What was the image?
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It was p0rn.
 
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Found $0.02 doing my laundry so here it is ...

I have filed a few disputes, claims, and have escalated over the years with PayPal. Here's what I learned and experienced.

Once you file a dispute, PayPal puts a hold on the Seller's funds given the dispute meets all their T&Cs and the Seller has funds. The Seller is allowed to refund or cause one to happen (it always showed up as a credit back to me from the Seller). If the Seller issues a refund during this stage of the process, the dispute is considered settled and closed. If the Buyer and Seller can't work it out and the Buyer escalates, both Buyer and Seller are now out of the decision loop and PayPal's decision is final. If PayPal rules in the Buyer's favor, the Buyer gets a refund (within a day of their promised decision date in pretty much all cases). If PayPal rules in the Seller's favor, it remains in the Seller's account which still may be subject to holds.

So if a lot of people escalated with SciFi, Eitan and the Buyers have to wait for PayPal's decision timeline (varies from case to case) which should be stated in the Buyer's and Seller's Resolution Center once they're logged in. I think I also got an email from PayPal once I started the escalation process that stated the decision timeline.

In no way is Eitan not responsible for making Buyers whole or in other words, put the Buyer back into the position that the Buyer would have been in had a legal wrong not occurred. Technically the jury is still out, presumption of innocence and all that but I tend to believe what I'm reading here on LPF since I personally witnessed the exact same behavior but LPF is really just of court of opinion - however powerful in a business' success point of view but not legally binding as I'm sure we all know. Now I'm not saying Eitan shouldn't pay out of some other funds but from his point of view, he may end up paying twice if PayPal rules in the Buyer's favor.

Damages are another form of remedy that can be sought although may not apply here unless some form of 'harm' can be substantiated. Damages are often pursued in personal injury cases.
 
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OVNI said:
Found $0.02 doing my laundry so here it is ...

...
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Thanks OVNI, that helped. Very nice explanation about Paypal's system to anyone who doesn't understand. I would rep you, but I have to keep spreading around first. Damn rep system! :whistle:
 
Joker joker joker... All I hear is.. Blah blah blah... I spent all your money, blah blah blah, it's all your guys fault, blah blah blah trust me... Nah dude. You can't put that your product will take 5-10 days to complete and then get pissed when people file claims after that dead line... You made the time of 5-10 to complete, NOT US. If you were getting behind change the damn website. Don't make people think it'll take 5-10 days and then get mad when they file a claim months later... Once again.. Its all your fault.. If I knew you were a 21 year old kid living in his mom's basement I would have never ordered from you.
 
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