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Space Discussion Thread

Re: Interstellar Space Travel

looks like we needed the church after all, I kinda expected it but did not want to accept it, I thought rational logical man can do better without this hokus pokus impediment, but it was protecting us from ourselves.

Hokus pokus impediment? This is so God Damn fucking arogant and insulting to 98% of the worlds population that I don't know what to say. I suggest you change your attitude right now.

In case you didn't know it, all discussion of religion is supposed to be confined to the religion thread! It has no place in this thread, it is completely off topic.

Alan
 





Re: Interstellar Space Travel

1st question are you a physicist? how do you know that it is not possible?
2nd question. yes currently there is no technology that would allow us to do it. But do you know what will be here in fifty years NO unless your some type of time travelling lunatic.

There is proven theory of it is possible. but its is in the far future.

Is Warp Speed Possible? : Discovery News
Warp speed, Scotty? It may actually be possible... - Science
NASA discusses its warp drive research, prepares to create a warp bubble in the lab | ExtremeTech
Warp Drive More Possible Than Thought, Scientists Say
Is Warp Travel Possible? - Science Questions, from the Naked Scientists
NASA EM Drive One Step Closer To Reality: Warp Drive Theoretically Possible, But Don't Hold Your Breath : SCIENCE : Tech Times
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshal...sting-of-revolutionary-e-sail-technology.html

here are links that back up what I am saying.
 
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Re: Interstellar Space Travel

The Alcubierre drive or Alcubierre warp drive (or Alcubierre metric, referring to metric tensor) is a speculative idea based on a solution of Einstein's field equations in general relativity as proposed by theoretical physicist Miguel Alcubierre, by which a spacecraft could achieve apparent faster-than-light travel if a configurable energy-density field lower than that of vacuum (that is, negative mass) could be created.

Rather than exceeding the speed of light within a local reference frame, a spacecraft would traverse distances by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, resulting in effective faster-than-light travel. Objects cannot accelerate to the speed of light within normal spacetime; instead, the Alcubierre drive shifts space around an object so that the object would arrive at its destination faster than light would in normal space.

Although the metric proposed by Alcubierre is mathematically valid (in that the proposal is consistent with the Einstein field equations), it may not be physically meaningful, in which case a drive will not be possible. Even if it is physically meaningful, its possibility would not necessarily mean that a drive can be constructed. The proposed mechanism of the Alcubierre drive implies a negative energy density and therefore requires exotic matter. So if exotic matter with the correct properties does not exist then the drive could not be constructed. However, at the close of his original paper Alcubierre argued (following an argument developed by physicists analyzing traversable wormholes that the Casimir vacuum between parallel plates could fulfill the negative-energy requirement for the Alcubierre drive.

Another possible issue is that, although the Alcubierre metric is consistent with Einstein's equations, general relativity does not incorporate quantum mechanics. Some physicists have presented arguments to suggest that a theory of quantum gravity (which would incorporate both theories) would eliminate those solutions in general relativity that allow for backwards time travel (see the chronology protection conjecture) and thus make the Alcubierre drive invalid.

Mathematics of the Alcubierre drive
Using the ADM formalism of general relativity, the spacetime is described by a foliation of space-like hypersurfaces of constant coordinate time t, with the metric taking the following general form:

ds^2 = -\left(\alpha^2- \beta_i \beta^i\right)\,dt^2+2 \beta_i \,dx^i\, dt+ \gamma_{ij}\,dx^i\,dx^j
where

\alpha is the lapse function that gives the interval of proper time between nearby hypersurfaces,
\beta^i is the shift vector that relates the spatial coordinate systems on different hypersurfaces, and
\gamma_{ij} is a positive definite metric on each of the hypersurfaces.
The particular form that Alcubierre studied[2] is defined by:

\alpha=1\,
\beta^x=-v_s(t)f\left(r_s(t)\right)
\beta^y = \beta^z =0 \,\!
\gamma_{ij}=\delta_{ij} \,\!
where

v_s(t)=\frac{dx_s(t)}{dt},
r_s(t)=\sqrt{(x-x_s(t))^2+y^2+z^2},
and

f(r_s)=\frac{\tanh(\sigma (r_s + R))-\tanh(\sigma (r_s - R))}{2 \tanh(\sigma R)},
with arbitrary parameters R > 0 and \sigma > 0. Alcubierre's specific form of the metric can thus be written

ds^2 = \left(v_s(t)^2 f(r_s(t))^2 -1\right)\,dt^2 - 2v_s(t)f(r_s(t))\,dx\,dt +dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2.
With this particular form of the metric, it can be shown that the energy density measured by observers whose 4-velocity is normal to the hypersurfaces is given by

-\frac{c^4}{8 \pi G} \frac{v_s^2 (y^2+z^2)}{4 g^2 r_s ^2} \left(\frac{df}{dr_s}\right)^2,
where g\! is the determinant of the metric tensor.

Thus, because the energy density is negative, one needs exotic matter to travel faster than the speed of light.[2] The existence of exotic matter is not theoretically ruled out; however, generating and sustaining enough exotic matter to perform feats such as faster-than-light travel (and also to keep open the 'throat' of a wormhole) is thought to be impractical.[citation needed] Low has argued that within the context of general relativity, it is impossible to construct a warp drive in the absence of exotic matter

Physics
For those familiar with the effects of special relativity, such as Lorentz contraction and time dilation, the Alcubierre metric has some apparently peculiar aspects. In particular, Alcubierre has shown that a ship using an Alcubierre drive travels on a free-fall geodesic even while the warp bubble is accelerating: its crew would be in free fall while accelerating without experiencing accelerational g-forces. Enormous tidal forces, however, would be present near the edges of the flat-space volume because of the large space curvature there, but suitable specification of the metric would keep them very small within the volume occupied by the ship.

The original warp-drive metric and simple variants of it happen to have the ADM form, which is often used in discussing the initial-value formulation of general relativity. This may explain the widespread misconception that this spacetime is a solution of the field equation of general relativity.[citation needed] Metrics in ADM form are adapted to a certain family of inertial observers, but these observers are not really physically distinguished from other such families. Alcubierre interpreted his "warp bubble" in terms of a contraction of space ahead of the bubble and an expansion behind, but this interpretation may be misleading because the contraction and expansion actually refers to the relative motion of nearby members of the family of ADM observers.

In general relativity, one often first specifies a plausible distribution of matter and energy, and then finds the geometry of the spacetime associated with it; but it is also possible to run the Einstein field equations in the other direction, first specifying a metric and then finding the energy–momentum tensor associated with it, and this is what Alcubierre did in building his metric. This practice means that the solution can violate various energy conditions and require exotic matter. The need for exotic matter raises questions about whether one can distribute the matter in an initial spacetime that lacks a warp bubble in such a way that the bubble is created at a later time, although some physicists have proposed models of dynamical warp-drive spacetimes in which a warp bubble is formed in a previously flat space. Moreover, according to Serguei Krasnikov, generating a bubble in a previously flat space for a one-way FTL trip requires forcing the exotic matter to move at local faster-than-light speeds, something that would require the existence of tachyons, although Krasnikov also notes that when the spacetime is not flat from the outset, a similar result could be achieved without tachyons by placing in advance some devices along the travel path and programming them to come into operation at preassigned moments and to operate in a preassigned manner. Some suggested methods avoid the problem of tachyonic motion, but would probably generate a naked singularity at the front of the bubble. Allen Everett and Thomas Roman comment that Krasnikov's finding "does not mean that Alcubierre bubbles, if it were possible to create them, could not be used as a means of superluminal travel. It only means that the actions required to change the metric and create the bubble must be taken beforehand by some observer whose forward light cone contains the entire trajectory of the bubble." For example, if one wanted to travel to Deneb (2,600 light years away) and arrive less than 2,600 years in the future according to external clocks, it would be required that someone had already begun work on warping the space from Earth to Deneb at least 2,600 years ago, in which case "A spaceship appropriately located with respect to the bubble trajectory could then choose to enter the bubble, rather like a passenger catching a passing trolley car, and thus make the superluminal journey." Everett and Roman also write that "as Krasnikov points out, causality considerations do not prevent the crew of a spaceship from arranging, by their own actions, to complete a round trip from Earth to a distant star and back in an arbitrarily short time, as measured by clocks on Earth, by altering the metric along the path of their outbound trip."


Alcubierre Warp Drive for Spacetime Travel Significant problems with the metric of this form stem from the fact that all known warp drive spacetimes violate various energy conditions. It is true that certain experimentally verified quantum phenomena, such as the Casimir effect, when described in the context of the quantum field theories, lead to stress-energy tensors which also violate the energy conditions and so one might hope that Alcubierre type warp drives could perhaps be physically realized by clever engineering taking advantage of such quantum effects. However, if certain quantum inequalities conjectured by Ford and Roman hold, then the energy requirements for some warp drives may be absurdly gigantic, e.g. the energy -1067gram equivalent might be required to transport a small spaceship across the Milky Way galaxy. This is orders of magnitude greater than the mass of the universe. Counterarguments to these apparent problems have been offered, but not everyone is convinced they can be overcome.

alcubierre warp drive Chris Van Den Broeck, in 1999, has tried to address the potential issues. By contracting the 3+1 dimensional surface area of the 'bubble' being transported by the drive, while at the same time expanding the 3 dimensional volume contained inside, Van Den Broeck was able to reduce the total energy needed to transport small atoms to less than 3 solar masses. Later, by slightly modifying the Van Den Broeck metric, Krasnikov reduced the necessary total amount of negative energy to a few milligrams.

Krasnikov proposed that, if tachyonic matter could not be found or used, then a solution might be to arrange for masses along the path of the vessel to be set in motion in such a way that the required field was produced. But in this case the Alcubierre Drive vessel is not able to go dashing around the galaxy at will. It is only able to travel routes which, like a railroad, have first been equipped with the necessary infrastructure.

Miguel Alcubierre
Miguel Alcubierre The pilot inside the bubble is causally disconnected with its walls and cannot carry out any action outside the bubble. However, it is necessary to place devices along the route in advance, and since the pilot cannot do this while "in transit", the bubble cannot be used for the first trip to a distant star. In other words, to travel to Vega (which is 26 light-years from the Earth) one first has to arrange everything so that the bubble moving toward Vega with a superluminal velocity would appear and these arrangements will always take more than 26 years.

Coule has argued that schemes such as the one proposed by Alcubierre are not feasible because the matter to be placed on the road beforehand has to be placed at superluminal speed. Thus, according to Coule, an Alcubierre Drive is required in order to build an Alcubierre Drive. Since none have been proven to exist already then the drive is impossible to construct, even if the metric is physically meaningful. Coule argues that an analogous objection will apply to any proposed method of constructing an Alcubierre Drive.
 
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Re: Interstellar Space Travel

No interstellar space travel for humans. Ever. Robotic ships, maybe but I doubt it. Why?
1. Too slow, even if large matter could miraculously approach the speed of light, which it can't....and won't.
2. Requires way, way way too much energy to do this in the span of a human lifetime.
3. "Warp speed" is Star Trek B.S.....might as well be called Bull-Crap speed, at least in this universe. "Bull-Crap factor 4, engage!"
4. Transporters - more complete B.S. Ain't ever going to happen. EVER! And, even it were possible, are you going to step into a machine that kills you by converting you into energy? You might as well let a Lion eat you, let it run 100 miles and then poop you out - there you go, you were just "transported" 100 miles - hope you enjoyed your trip!
5. And, let's say you survive "suspended animation" and make it to another nearby star. Then what? You find a few dead planets orbiting a star; decide to land on one. Oooops, don't have enough energy to get off the cold dead rock. You die. Or, perhaps you make it off the cold dead rock - Oooops, forgot, there isn't anyone to prep your body for suspended animation for the flight back to earth - you die. Or you just die one of a million other different ways.

Sorry to be such a crumudgeon. The laws of physics is why I don't believe we have ever been visited by an alien race. There are probably plenty of intelligent species out there....its just that I don't believe they are any better at breaking the laws of physics than we are.

Quantum physics is what will get us there
Danny
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Hokus pokus impediment? This is so God Damn fucking arogant and insulting to 98% of the worlds population that I don't know what to say. I suggest you change your attitude right now.

In case you didn't know it, all discussion of religion is supposed to be confined to the religion thread! It has no place in this thread, it is completely off topic.

Alan

Was that a joke, you faint being offended then take the lords name in vein?

LOL you had me going for a second there, touché.

It was a reflection on a personal viewpoint, not judging those who adamantly believe or cling desperately to their magic security blankets.

I wanted to make a point with as few of words as possible about how my view had changed based on what I thought and have seen change over the years, and in a nutshell how religion provides a counterbalance to government.

I hate the backstabbers in government and pity the suicide bombers, because the bombers really believe they are doing gods work, they are actually brave and self sacrificing, just not too smart.

This connects to the topic because Americas financial well being is directly related to our ability to carry out a space program with the level of funding to see advancements in our lifetime, and I think that people in America living more and more without religion has affected our financial viability, actually no candidate ever won the Whitehouse without the catholic vote until post pedophile priest era. So it is connected.

p.s. If any of this truly offends you then please, take a deep breath and know that I have a strange sense of humor and I an not intending to offend, merely share a thought from my viewpoint that may differ in some areas from yours and agree in other areas.

If I have it all wrong you should laugh at me, not be mad, anger suggest you question yourself and your own beliefs....if you were not joking, either way please don't be offended, it's just a thought, not an attack.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Space is a marvelous thing. Not only is it vast beyond human comprehension, but within it lies giant stars, beautiful planets, enormous clouds of dust and gas, and perhaps even things that we cannot yet fathom. It is no wonder so many wish to explore the stars; to travel to other worlds beyond our little slice of the universe. However, there is just one itsy-bitsy problem in the way, an annoying boundary of sorts. The universe is really, really big, and it is kind of technically impossible to travel faster than light. This essentially means that even if we were able to travel as fast as a speeding photon, it would still take many years to get anywhere, and the same amount of time to get back.

Does this mean interstellar travel in science fiction is a lie? Does that mean it would take years to transport my goods to Jita as opposed to a few minutes of auto-pilot? Perhaps not. One potential way to work around this universal boundary is warp drive technology. While warp drives currently only exist in the realms of EVE or Star Trek, they may not be as fictional as one might think.

IT'S ALL ABOUT RELATIVITY

A significant part of our understanding of modern physics is based upon a foundation formed by one of Einstein's theories, his Special Theory of Relativity. This scientific theory is the accepted physical theory for the relationship between space and time, forming the basis for many scientific models. However, the postulations of special relativity in particular presents a problem for anyone wishing to travel faster than the speed of light.

EINSTEIN'S SPECIAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY

1. The speed of light (~ 3 x 108 m/s) is constant for all observers regardless of what reference frame they are in.

2. The laws of physics must be the same for all observers who are moving with uniform velocity relative to one another.

These postulations come together along with other scientific theories to create Einstein's famed equation, E=mc2, where E is energy, m is mass, and c is the speed of light. This equation has major implications, as it equates matter with energy, the two being the same thing! Thus the energy of an object, for example as a result of its motion, will increase the mass of the object in question as well. As an object moves faster and faster, its mass will increase and become greater.

Such an effect is not noticeable in everyday life, nor are the other effects of Special Relativity such as time dilation and length contraction. This is because in order for these relativistic effects to be felt, an object has to be moving very fast, such as 10% if the speed of light or faster. If an object were to travel at velocities approaching the speed of light, its mass will increase until it reaches infinity. An object that is traveling at the speed of light will have infinite mass. But in order to move that infinitely massive object an infinite amount of energy is needed. Thus, it is physically impossible for anything to travel as fast or faster than the speed of light; at least traditionally.

WARP DRIVE MECHANICS

Warp drive technology supposedly enables "faster-than-light" travel through a loophole-of-sorts in Einstein's other theory: the General Theory of Relativity. The theory states that all matter bends the fabric of space and time, with more massive objects bending space-time more than less massive objects. This can be visualised by imagining space-time as a sheet of fabric stretched at all sides. Objects with sufficient mass, such as a soccer ball, would bend the sheet around it. One of the effects of this bending is what we call gravity, which diverges from the traditional Newtonian view that gravity is a force. Even light itself bends around objects with significant "gravity wells".

[]

An illustration of the effects objects have on space-time. (yorku)

The Warp Drive is based on the idea that one can manipulate space-time itself in order to travel to a far-away location that would otherwise have taken years if not decades to reach. So while one cannot travel through space faster than light, perhaps one can simply bend space and bring it closer. Space itself is flexible, having been expanding ever since the Big Bang. In theory, a spaceship, for example, would not need to physically travel faster than the speed of light in order to reach its destination within a reasonable amount of time. Instead, the spacecraft would simply bend the space around it, contracting the space in front while expanding the space behind. The spacecraft would never technically travel faster than light, and would reach its location much faster than if it had used "conventional" means.

THE ALCUBIERRE DRIVE

In May 1994, Miguel Alcubierre Moya, a Mexican theoretical physicist, proposed in a paper a possible way of circumventing the physical principle that nothing can travel faster than light. In his proposal "The Warp Drive: Hyper-fast travel within general relativity," Alcubierre described the Alcubierre drive, which would allow the creation of a bubble of "flat space" that would be driven forward by the local expansion of space-time around it. A spacecraft would be able to travel through space by contracting and expanding the space around itself, effectively allowing the spacecraft to achieve faster-than-light travel.

[]

A illustration of the space bending effects of a warp drive. (unsolving)

The Alcubierre drive is based on Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, namely a solution of Einstein's field equations, and relies on the existence of exotic matter with negative mass. The design of the Alcubierre warp drive would involve having a football-shape spacecraft, with a ring of exotic matter with negative mass attached to it. This ring would cause the space-time around the spacecraft to warp, though the spacecraft itself would remain in a bubble of flat space-time. In this way, the spacecraft will be unaffected by the warping effects of the ring, while also being thrust forward through space. According to Alucbierre's initial proposal, this Alcubierre warp drive would allow a spacecraft to travel at effective velocities ten times the speed of light.

The Alcubierre drive is not without its problems though, such as the fact that it can only work if exotic matter with negative mass exists, and by extension negative energy as well. Exotic mass is a term used to describe matter that deviates from the norm, the norm being the matter that composes the observable universe. Dark matter, which is poorly understood, is a type of exotic matter. Exotic matter with negative mass and negative energy is a prerequisite for the Alcubierre drive to work, but the nature of exotic matter makes it difficult to quantify and research. If exotic matter that has the exact qualities needed by the Alcubierre drive does not exist, then the entire concept would be a moot point. Alcubierre, however, did argue that the Casimir vacuum between parallel plates could be used to substitute the negative-energy requirement needed by the Alcubierre drive.

[]

An illustration of the Alcubierre Drive in action. (dailygalaxy)

There are other issues plaguing the Alcubierre drive, most notably the amount of energy required for it to work. Calculations regarding the Alcubierre drive showed that the energy required by the device would exceed the mass-energy density of the planet Jupiter. Needless to say, at a mass of 1.9 x 1.9 × 1027 kilograms, that is a horrific energy requirement. Though the Alcubierre drive could indeed be technically plausible in nature, the immense energy needed for it to work makes it not only impractical but impossible with modern technology.

A NEW HOPE

While the Alcubierre drive apparently necessitates enormous amounts of energy (who needs Jupiter anyways, right?) further developments on the concept may actually make it a viable idea. In recent years, subsequent calculations and adjustments to Alcubierre's inital proposal have drastically decreased the energy requirements for the Alcubiere warp drive, allowing it to run on significantly lower, and realistically possible, amounts of energy. According to Harold White of NASA's Johnson Space Center, changing the shape of the ring encircling the spacecraft causes the amount of energy needed to power the warp drive to go down.

White's calculations showed that if the shape of the ring was modified to resemble that of a rounded donut, by making it thicker and more curvy, the warp drive would only need the mass-energy of an object the size of NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft. Going from 317 times the mass of the Earth to a mass of 722 kilograms makes the Alcubierre drive much more feasible, potentially opening the way for interstellar travel in the future. Other adjustments to the concept, such as making the intensity of the space warps move in an oscillating fashion over time, can help lower the energy requirement even more so.

[]

The new, adjusted shape of the Alcubierre Drive. (extremetech)

So far, White's theories are currently being tested at the Johnson Space Center. There, White and his colleagues use what they refer to as a White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer (a modified Michelson-Morley interferometer that detects small perturbations in space-time) to create microscopic warps in space-time. In order to test the feasibility of the concept, White and his colleagues intend to make one of the interferometer's legs appear to be a different length than it actually is, thereby having a proof-of-concept for his theory. Though the effectiveness of their laser interferometer is still being researched, the work done with it represents one of the leading research work done on the Alcubierre drive.

HELM, WARP ONE ENGAGE!

Warp Drive technology has long been something that only exists in science fiction, with television shows such as Star Trek showing the wonders that can be reached if one could travel faster than light. At the moment, warp drive technology is only a theory; a theoretical possibility made plausible due to a quirk in the nature of space-time. No physical evidence of the feasibility of the theory has been shown, let alone any practical applications. However, similar to how nuclear energy was only a theory in the past, all it takes is one small experiment proving the theory for progress to really begin.

Though it will be a long time before NASA and other space agencies are strapping warp drives to spacecraft, the research being done on the subject shows that warp drive technology may not be impossible after all. Perhaps one day humanity will break free of the universe's physical constraint that is the speed of light, allowing our species to become a true space-faring civilization.

taken from https://www.themittani.com/features/eve-real-warp-drives/page/0/1?nopaging=1

more fact http://www.enthea.org/docs/Warp-Drives-Engineering.pdf
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0712.1649v6.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936.pdf
 
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Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Why do they choose yellow lasers for such an application? They look cool and all, but I'm sure there's a more scientific reason.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

It excites a sodium layer 60 miles up and creates a point source for alignment and compensation by adaptive optics.
It's to help compensate for airs distortion.

Here's an article about it.

Why observatories shoot lasers at the Universe ? Starts With A Bang


--------------------------------------------------

Can you reduce the size of that photo or are you just trying to further derail this thread?

Alan

I just copy and pasted Madmacmo's link, but I will delete it and just post the link.

51607d1464039651-interstellar-space-travel-fourlasersov.jpg


Madmacmo posted this, I just love it. 22 watts each :drool: I'm sure they are dpss, the pump diode's must be massive.

Full size image at link below.

http://laserpointerforums.com/f54/l...mpressed-perspective-88198-5.html#post1423742
 

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Re: Interstellar Space Travel

It excites a sodium layer 60 miles up and creates a point source for alignment and compensation by adaptive optics.
It's to help compensate for airs distortion.

Here's an article about it.

Why observatories shoot lasers at the Universe ? Starts With A Bang


--------------------------------------------------



I just copy and pasted Madmacmo's link, but I will delete it and just post the link.

Madmacmo posted this, I just love it. 22 watts each :drool: I'm sure they are dpss, the pump diode's must be massive.

Full size image at link below.

http://laserpointerforums.com/f54/l...mpressed-perspective-88198-5.html#post1423742

They're usually dye lasers in most photos you see. IIRC they are also almost entirely flashlamp pumped.

The switch to DPSS as more popular for new telescopes was only very recently made, but I'm not sure if that's because optics got better to use lower power levels or really high power DPSS ones are worth it.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

just a quick question to those following this thread do you think that if a older civilization is out there do they posses the ability to use warp type propulsion
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

just a quick question to those following this thread do you think that if a older civilization is out there do they posses the ability to use warp type propulsion

If there are indeed extraterrestrials visiting Earth from other solar systems, I don't see how they couldn't have some sort of FTL technology.

Otherwise, I think they'd come in a huge multi generational starship looking for a home, and we'd all definitely notice it.

That said, there's still no absolute proof that they're here, so if they aren't, probably not.

It's possible a civilization on the other edge of the universe with no chance of getting to us or contacting us could develop such a tech without us ever seeing it.


The physics for warping, FTL, and entanglement are weak too though. It's somewhat plausible as far as we know, but nothing's been truly proven. I'd say most decent physicists would tell you no, but that doesn't mean they're right.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Alright I'm kinda new to this stuff and I certainly don't have a physics degree although I do understand quantum mechanics and relativity quite well through personal research. I have heard that the EM drive or "impossible engine" as the media likes to call it could potentially generate some kind of gravitational distortion or warp. The engine works by bouncing microwaves around in a specially shaped conical cavity, with thrust being provided without the need for any propellant. Nothing is expelled out the back of the engine, so it should violate conservation of momentum. However, test after test have shown that even in a vacuum the engine produces measurable thrust, so it cannot be due to the Lorentz interaction. So if it seems to break conservation of momentum but we know it works (much like cavemen making fire without understanding how combustion worked), then something has to be happening that we don't understand yet to generate that thrust. Is it possible that this is due to some kind of warping effect? Also I know that if you made the engine superconducting, you would be able to get hundreds of times more thrust/kilowatt.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Alright I'm kinda new to this stuff and I certainly don't have a physics degree although I do understand quantum mechanics and relativity quite well through personal research. I have heard that the EM drive or "impossible engine" as the media likes to call it could potentially generate some kind of gravitational distortion or warp. The engine works by bouncing microwaves around in a specially shaped conical cavity, with thrust being provided without the need for any propellant. Nothing is expelled out the back of the engine, so it should violate conservation of momentum. However, test after test have shown that even in a vacuum the engine produces measurable thrust, so it cannot be due to the Lorentz interaction. So if it seems to break conservation of momentum but we know it works (much like cavemen making fire without understanding how combustion worked), then something has to be happening that we don't understand yet to generate that thrust. Is it possible that this is due to some kind of warping effect? Also I know that if you made the engine superconducting, you would be able to get hundreds of times more thrust/kilowatt.

The EmDrive is a very tricky situation in science. Numerous theories about how it works from space distortion, to effecting quantum vacuum virtual plasma, to momentum actually jumping between quantum states, and so on.

There still haven't been enough legitimate studies of its actual ability to produce thrust either though. NASA's even been very tight-lipped about their experimentation after the media fiasco where people thought they succeeded in creating a warp bubble using one.

Like many mysterious inventions created without engineering behind them that look like they shouldn't work, professionals don't want to touch them.
It's a shame, but this sort of thing has happened with many ideas. Biggest example is cold fusion; after it started looking bad, experimentation stopped.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Such a shame indeed. Damn if I had the money I'd start my own lab and build a superconducting version and subject it to every test imaginable before trying to get a proof-of-concept craft launched into space. I feel like this really could go far and as far as I know nobody has attempted to build the superconducting version yet. Its a bummer that more work isn't being done on the EM drive because it really is a very simple device to build. Whether it creates a warp bubble or not (Please please please) it could still help us to send craft to mars or europa.
 
Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Such a shame indeed. Damn if I had the money I'd start my own lab and build a superconducting version and subject it to every test imaginable before trying to get a proof-of-concept craft launched into space. I feel like this really could go far and as far as I know nobody has attempted to build the superconducting version yet. Its a bummer that more work isn't being done on the EM drive because it really is a very simple device to build. Whether it creates a warp bubble or not (Please please please) it could still help us to send craft to mars or europa.

Definitely a shame, but the thing would have to produce a lot more thrust before it'd be worth it. Any directional radiation source can already produce thrust since photons have momentum. The thrusts are usually miniscule, but it's scientifically proven to work unlike the EmDrive is right now. Laser propulsion and light sails are the major examples. Even the thermal radiation off of RTGs can produce a little bit of thrust, and it had to be accounted for on many probes like New Horizons.
 





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