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FrozenGate by Avery

Pyro banned WTF!?

Pontiacg5 said:
We tried the intellectual property thing as Dave said. It didn't work. Besides, how much thought or designing actually goes into making a heatsink" It's really quite simple, 12mm through hole and outer profile matched to the flashlight. There is no way to change the shape of the heatsink in most cases. If you are being undersold your charging too much.

So, I go back to my original statement. Make something unique, to the point that it's hard or cost ineffective for someone else to copy. If someone somehow manages to copy you than adapt (by lowering prices) or quit selling.
Click to expand...

Not quite....

The only thing that can make a big difference is if you needed
to dig into your own pockets for your Lathe and Milling machine...
or you were given the tools or the use of the tools...

Investing big $$$ for the equipment would need to be added
to the final product...

Not to mention overhead... If I was living at my parent's house
and working in their garage using my dad's tools I could really
drop the price compared to the guy that has to pay the utilities
and Shop rent and equipment...

Still.... if take the time to make "it" (whatever) unique and different
then no-one could complain about copying "it"...


Jerry
 
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Pontiacg5 said:
how much thought or designing actually goes into making a heatsink" It's really quite simple, 12mm through hole and outer profile matched to the flashlight. There is no way to change the shape of the heatsink in most cases. If you are being undersold your charging too much.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more. Picking up a flashlight and filling it with a slug of aluminum is not a unique design. If you build a 1 off host I see a point there. That is a design made by you in every way and there are infinitely more ways to make them.

Flashlight heatsinks, especially ones without features dont take any "design" really. Yeah you might have to get creative trying to place a set screw or what not but with many of these "designs" if you handed some other machinist the same flashlight without ever showing him your deign he would replicate it on accident! What kind of intellectual property is that?

Now I dont think anyone should be ordering heatsinks from another member and taking measurements to stamp out the same exact thing but if they buy the flashlight and go down to their lathe and happen to end up with the same thing I say thats fair. On many of these flashlights there isnt much you can really change unless you just added some pointless design deviations. Its just filling a gap with heat conductive material most of the time. No one looks at someone elses heatsink and goes "OH thats how to make it!" its just the most logical way to do it.
 
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Didnt we already have this debate, LOL?

The monopolies are over. Tutorials? The majority of the tutorials were often instructions using parts made by the person who wrote the tutorial. I mean how many times can you write "press the diode, place in HS, attach leads, connect driver, ect."?

To me competition is what's moving this hobby forward. We have a plethora of new designs, divers, and combination. And its affordable.

Big thanks to all those who help the hobby, and make it affordable so everyone has the chance basks in photon goodness.
 
daguin said:
Of course we have.

We will have it again when this "generation" of builders becomes vested and begins to be undercut by the next generation

Peace,
dave
Click to expand...

ROFLMAO..... So True.....:crackup::crackup:
I look at it like this....
Good for you.... Good for me...:eg:

I'm not going to whine about it... I'll just invest
in a bit more R&D to stay ahead of the competition...:beer:


Jerry
 
I like threads like this - even though i know many don't. It's been discussed hundreds of times before, but i think it's good to see where everyone stands. In other words, i'm not bored of these threads yet :p

Trevor said:
I do not believe the sense of entitlement to low prices or free items held by the "newer generation" should be catered to.

I do not believe the sense of entitlement to a monopoly held by someone who machines the first heatsink should be catered to.

If I am producing aluminum heatsinks for the Cree X-P-G-Q-BR549 SuperDuperAwesomeBeamFireStarter flashlight by ChinaLEDCompanyPewPewPewFlashlightSunFire and qumefox starts machining copper heatsinks with tighter tolerances than me, should his product be squelched merely because I was doing it first? Or is it my responsibility to excel above his level rather than force this noob (qumefox you NOOB! :p ) to stop producing what is really my product?

At the end of the day, the sellers want a sellers' market and the buyers want a buyers' market.

I don't really feel like I've earned the right to have a well-formed opinion on this topic though, not having really experienced it myself. The above thoughts are worth what you paid for them... ;)


-Trevor
Click to expand...

Trevor, i love how you explain stuff. It sort of puts stuff into perspective with a "real" life scenario, but made me laugh nonetheless.

qumefox said:
Possibly. but the sipik heatsinks are a bit more complicated than metal slugs with 12mm holes and a setscrew too. If someone else can make them cheaper than I sell them for, more power to them heh. Especially someone with a manual lathe. I think they'd find them quickly not worth the effort. Just like I have.. Future runs of them will likely be farmed out to shops with CNC equipment heh. And if I can afford to order them in enough quantity, my pricing on them may drop somewhat as well too.

I also have some very.. unique... fully machined hosts in the works too heh. But i'm not letting that cat out of the bag until I get things finalized and see if they'll be cost effective to actually make. Since I doubt people will want $600 hosts for example heh.
Click to expand...

heh.

Tech_Junkie said:
Didnt we already have this debate, LOL?

The monopolies are over. Tutorials? The majority of the tutorials were often instructions using parts made by the person who wrote the tutorial. I mean how many times can you write "press the diode, place in HS, attach leads, connect driver, ect."?

To me competition is what's moving this hobby forward. We have a plethora of new designs, divers, and combination. And its affordable.

Big thanks to all those who help the hobby, and make it affordable so everyone has the chance basks in photon goodness.
Click to expand...

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I think competition is good. I don't know the letter-of-the-law, but for real businesses it's against the law to agree prices not to drop below because it's unfair on the consumer. If one person is selling a heatsink for a particular flashlight and another makes a heatsink for the same flashlight it's not stealing of intellectual property unless the sink was unique in some way. There's no intellectual property there really, it's just that there's an end with only one method to reach it.

Going to take this a step further, put my neck on the line and say what i know a lot of people are thinking. Why should it cost three times as much for a heatsink from one machinist than for another? The stock cost the same amount, the amount of time spent on it was probably the same, i have my doubts about the extent to which the quality varies. And this is why competition is good. When someone likes a host there is usually only one person they can buy from and therefore they pay whatever price the machinist is charging - with the deciding factor being luck as to whether that machinist is one of the cheap bunch or the expensive bunch (as there seem to be two distinct groups with little in between). It's much better, in my opinion at least, to have the choice - the same way we do when buying CDs or soldering irons or washing machines or bacon.
 
JaiNobeZ said:
Going to take this a step further, put my neck on the line and say what i know a lot of people are thinking. Why should it cost three times as much for a heatsink from one machinist than for another? The stock cost the same amount, the amount of time spent on it was probably the same, i have my doubts about the extent to which the quality varies. And this is why competition is good. When someone likes a host there is usually only one person they can buy from and therefore they pay whatever price the machinist is charging - with the deciding factor being luck as to whether that machinist is one of the cheap bunch or the expensive bunch (as there seem to be two distinct groups with little in between). It's much better, in my opinion at least, to have the choice - the same way we do when buying CDs or soldering irons or washing machines or bacon.
Click to expand...

I guess you didn't read post #33....:whistle:
There are valid reasons for price differences for heatsinks or
other manufactured Laser products...


Jerry
 
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Not sure why I got 'heh'd at.

And also.. Some people may choose to put higher prices on their TIME than others. If I have miss out on other stuff, etc.. to stand in front of the lathe to do stuff for people.. Of course i'm going to place a higher value on my time that I would if I didn't have jack else to do..
 
lasersbee said:
I guess you didn't read post #33....:whistle:
There are valid reasons for price differences for heatsinks or
other manufactured Laser products...


Jerry
Click to expand...

I did read that. But can that really account for as big differences in price as we see, comparing the prices of some machinists to others?

And besides, on the consumer's end who cares how your machinist got their tools as long as you've got a quality product? In that case it's actually better to buy from the person who works in their parents' garage.

qumefox said:
Not sure why I got 'heh'd at.

And also.. Some people may choose to put higher prices on their TIME than others. If I have miss out on other stuff, etc.. to stand in front of the lathe to do stuff for people.. Of course i'm going to place a higher value on my time that I would if I didn't have jack else to do..
Click to expand...

I just noticed that in your post you put "heh" to finish a lot of sentences. *shrugs* just amusing myself.

Sort of makes sense, but again, what do i care how much the machinist's time is worth to him? If that's what's accounting for the difference it seems sort of weird that some people should value their time that much and still have adopted machining as a source of income despite it being highly time-consuming.
 
JaiNobeZ said:
I did read that. But can that really account for as big differences in price as we see, comparing the prices of some machinists to others?

And besides, on the consumer's end who cares how your machinist got their tools as long as you've got a quality product? In that case it's actually better to buy from the person who works in their parents' garage.
Click to expand...

I was clearly referring to.... If you are the Machinist and Seller of
your own machined products... (which is what is being discussed
here)

There is another factor.... the experience of the machinists and
the acceptable tolerances a machinist will accept as a salable
product. Not all heatsinks will have identical tolerances...

The tighter the tolerance the longer the work will take... and that
will impact the costs differently for the seller that is running a
business or the guy making it in his spare time in his dad's garage
using his dad's tools for free...

I found a long time ago that there is "some" correlation between
supposedly identical products and price in the general marketplace...

As to the Price/Quality on the Forum... I can't say... I don't really
build Lasers using these Heat Sinks...

So I don't have 1st hand knowledge of any Heat Sinks sold on
the Forum....

JaiNobeZ said:
Sort of makes sense, but again, what do i care how much the machinist's time is worth to him? If that's what's accounting for the difference it seems sort of weird that some people should value their time that much and still have adopted machining as a source of income despite it being highly time-consuming.
Click to expand...


BTW... if you feel you should get "stuff" for only the price of parts
and no labor at all.....
perhaps you should start by buying a shovel and digging the aluminum
ore out of the ground yourself...:whistle:


Jerry
 
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lasersbee said:
There is another factor.... the experience of the machinists and
the acceptable tolerances a machinist will accept as a salable
product. Not all heatsinks will have identical tolerances...
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. Well said.

-Trevor
 
JaiNobeZ said:
Sort of makes sense, but again, what do i care how much the machinist's time is worth to him? If that's what's accounting for the difference it seems sort of weird that some people should value their time that much and still have adopted machining as a source of income despite it being highly time-consuming.
Click to expand...

You should try starting and running your own business sometime as your primary income source.. Then all these questions of yours will answer themselves fairly quickly as you figure out what you have to charge for stuff to keep paying the bills.
 
qumefox said:
You should try starting and running your own business sometime as your primary income source.. Then all these questions of yours will answer themselves fairly quickly as you figure out what you have to charge for stuff to keep paying the bills.
Click to expand...

This is true, and false. Your statement is valid, but on the flip side this is a hobby level forum. If you went out and spent tons of money to make a living here, you're a fool. This market is a side work type business. People like Jerry have both a market here, other forums, and on the web, so its easier for him to cut a living. This is the only way you can make a remotely solid living selling laser related parts. Even at that level I'm sure nDrew, Senkat, ect are no millionaires, or is their single source for making a living. Matt created a niche because he didnt invest heavily in equipment and material. He has the perfect set up to make some money, and further the hobby. To be mad at him for this is retarded.
 
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