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Trevor

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bootleg2go,
Would you mind clarifying which company you represent?
Or even better, include it in your sig?
He runs Optotronics.

-Trevor
 

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I'm fine with the fact that it happened. I'm not fine with a lie to cover it.

Didn't another company recently have problems with lying? I forget. :angel:

-Trevor
You never told a lie to someone about something that was none of their business? IMO its the only excuse for lying.

WL is a totally other story, and and has nothing to do with this situation.
 

Trevor

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You never told a lie to someone about something that was none of their business? IMO its the only excuse for lying.

WL is a totally other story, and and has nothing to do with this situation.
Well, the way I see it, he won't be straight about a fairly simple question of what's up with the DX support links on the site. If he's not going to be open and honest about that, I'm not inclined to trust them or order anything. Call me crazy. :p

If you want to continue the debate, drop me a PM... I'll stop clogging the thread. :)

-Trevor
 
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Nah..I said my piece. Its up to the individual what they care about most, paganism, or onspec cheap lasers.
 
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Sounds like he just did a copy and paste. Something we all have done to one extent or another. There is no copyright, so its a common practice, right or wrong.

Jack, you're biased in this. I see your points, but you are the competition. I would think the only person who has the right to bitch would be DX. You're rallying a linch mob, and the only 'crime' is plagiarism. And once again, is not frowned upon in China.

So far John has been honest, given out coupons, free prizes, and has backed up his word with returns of underspec lasers. He is trying hard to learn as much about lasers as all of us. He is even getting a LPM (from one of OUR members) to be honest about specs. To me these are the important issues, not if he copied and pasted a paragraph or two. He owes no one an explanation of how he set up the web page. If he was in the US, then maybe you'd have a point, but he is not. And some simple plagiarism (which is permissible in his country) is not going to stop anyone from buying onspec lasers at a good price.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Hi Tj,
Yes, I am biased in this case; but some of us just want the truth regarding the DX PA partnership / connection. I expect the reason DX isn't talking is because they are just different domain names under the same ownership.
I think too, if you do some research you'll find that China is part of the WTO and does have copyright & intellectual property laws, just like we doe in the USA, Europe and around the world. They just are having a hard time at enforcing them as the theft is so widespread; but it is not legal there by any means.

Part of my bias I suppose is because my website was plagiarized and work stolen from me by Techlasers (ie Wickedlasers) a couple years back, so as long as I think they stole their website, I will be biased against them.

I also am biased by the fact that I think the playing field should be level.
When a company sells a laser that is advertised to be 200mw, then it should be 200mw period.
I know you said people would be stupid to think they can get a 200mw laser for 30 bucks, but there are a lot of people out there who are stupid or maybe I should just say naive and think that if it says 200mw, it must be and they compare by nothing more than advertised power level and may miss the small print somewhere that might say actual output will probably be much less. Why not, if you have a meter, test each one beforehand and make sure the customer gets what was promised to him. I suppose honesty won't get you too far in the business world and maybe it's best to deceive and reap the profits from 1000's of people who think they are getting a 200mw laser for $30 and if 10% of them actually know what 200mw should look like or can test for it, will send them back and then a another "200mw" laser sent in it's place. At some point the owner decides it's best to cut his losses and stop paying $20 or more to ship back a $30 laser. At least, that's the story I get all the time from my customers "I ordered a laser from company xxx and it's crap, sent it back and got another crap one, then decided to cut my losses and now am ordering from Opto."

I have no problem with healthy competition, but when they cheat or deceive the customer to get that sale it pisses me off to no end.

It's good that John posted about the underpowered lasers here, but being smart I think he is, it is more covering his rear-end as it's better for him to admit it right way rather than let the customers post their results and ruin his reputation before he even had a chance to build one, which they would have.

I have not heard from laserbee as to if John has ordered a meter or not yet (I'm sure he'll let us know) but it's a good and encouraging start for John to do so...as long as he tests them and selsl them at the power level they are tested to really be, otherwise having a meter is pretty useless unless it's used to verify output power of customer returns after the fact.

So yes TJ, I agree I am biased on this one in many ways.

I did get a little defensive when John posted to the effect that they never had the DX email links in their website, which makes me look like a liar; so I had to post what I clipped from their terms webpage 2-3 weeks ago and to the google search results; John knew they were on his site.

It also wasn't a simple cut and paste of a paragraph or so, it was pretty much the whole website; as shown on the copyscape website comparison results.

To you it may be a mole hill, but have you ever had your website stolen or anything stolen and then found it in someone elses hands?
Then it's not a mole hill but a mountain.

Ok, I've said my peace.
Take care TJ, I always like your input and conversation.
 
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This whole tread suddenly makes a lot more sense.

bootleg2go,
Would you mind clarifying which company you represent?
Or even better, include it in your sig?
Hi Toke,
Wow this thread got lots of posts while I was writing my reply.
I think by my reply, you can tell I own Optotronics and I posted my position in that post and why this particular indecent bugs me.

I don't post optotronics in my sig ( I use to), but I thought every knew pretty much knew who I was and I think putting links to a company in your sig is a form of spam, which I detest; but maybe I'll reconsider doing so.
 

lasersbee

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We finally found an Asian seller that will ship to the USA.....
and gives good Customer Service and seems to be honorable..
And a few of you are whining and nitpicking about where he got
his Website templates...

Who F#@king cares... if he blatantly lies to a customer about
his products then I say... We have a problem...

I couldn't care less if he wears one Blue sock and one Red sock...
that's his business...

If any member does not trust John7788 or what he has presented
to the Forum.... DON'T BUY FROM THE SITE..... buy from DX if you think
it's the same...

I just placed an order from their site... I'm not worried...:cool:

BTW.... I didn't know that bootleg2go = Optotronics CEO
An indication in your Sig or Member Profile would help...


Jerry
 
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Nah..I said my piece. Its up to the individual what they care about most, paganism, or onspec cheap lasers.
I had to reply to this.
To paraphase as John often does.
Your quote above about caring a bout plagiarism or cheap onspec lasers.
It is like saying in a way "do you care if you buy stolen products as long as they are cheap and perform well" To some the answer maybe yes, others no; but if you were a buyer of stolen goods and then something was stolen and fenced from you, how would you feel? Would you think that by buying stolen goods, you would have helped maintain/ create a market for such items?
I'm not saying anything hardware or goods were stolen, it's just a paraphrase but support of bad behavior is only positive reinforcement that it's good thing.
Kinda like customers who keep going back to WL when they have such a bad rep and treat the majority of their customers like shit, if people didn't take their crap and went elsewhere, I think WL would get on the ball and treat their customers right or be out of business.

The onspec part of your quote is still to be seen, we will find out soon when members with meters get them in hand, but it's still a bit premature to say yet.

For Toke,
I was not hiding or trying hide anything. You are just very new here, only a few months and I don't post tons of messages on here, so you were just not aware.

take care TJ and have a good weekend:)
 

lasersbee

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I know John said he was going to buy a laserbee meter, but he never said it would be used to make sure people got the power level they order. For instance, if his meter shows the power to be 50mw, will it be sold as a 50mw, 100mw or 150mw; what will the use of the meter really be, if they are not going to be sold based on the what the meter reading is?
I think it's a waste to buy a meter, test the lasers; then sell them as they were marked from the factory in the qst place.

Sorry for the rant, but deception pisses me off, why not just be an honest business .
He did buy a Deluxe LaserBee I... It was shipped to him
yesterday...

What do you really think he will do with the Laser Power Meter...:thinking:

Logic dictates that just having a Laser Power Meter on the shelf
obviously does not guarantee Laser Power Output...

I would think that the 1st Lasers received by customers after being
"tested" with the LPM that were Rated at XXXmW and were found to
be underspec will have negative repercussions on their Sales...

I can not see John7788 be that stupid to buy a Laser Power Meter
and not use it to his advantage...

I don't agree... he is making an honest effort to check his Laser's
outputs...

You are assuming that you know their marketing and sales
intentions....:undecided:


Yeah... deception also pisses me off.... My company and my
position in it are in my Profile...:eg:


Jerry
 
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We finally found an Asian seller that will ship to the USA.....
and gives good Customer Service and seems to be honorable..
And a few of you are whining and nitpicking about where he got
his Website templates...

Who F#@king cares... if he blatantly lies to a customer about
his products then I say... We have a problem...

I couldn't care less if he wears one Blue sock and one Red sock...
that's his business...

If any member does not trust John7788 or what he has presented
to the Forum.... DON'T BUY FROM THE SITE..... buy from DX if you think
it's the same...

I just placed an order from there site... I'm not worried...:cool:

BTW.... I didn't know that bootleg2go = Optronics CEO
An indication in your Sig or Member Profile would help...


Jerry
Hi Jerry,
I agree, I could care less how he dresses which side of the bed he gets out of.
All I wanted to know was why the deception regarding the DX & PA being the same entity with different names.
I do care about the theft of IP from other websites, much as you would if someone copied your site word for word and then sold the same products you do.

I just looked at my profile and my homepage in my profile is Optotronics Laser Products
It's been in the profile from day 1 since I joined 4 years ago or so.
It's just not in my sig because I don't feel right producing free advertising to my website in every post I make; but if everyone thinks I should, I will put it back in my sig (took it out a couple years back).
Like I said, I'm not a daily or sometimes even monthly poster here, just 500 posts in 4 years; but I thought most old timers that have been here more than a couple years would know who I am, Avery and most if not all the mods know.

I also agree most with your comment about blatantly lying to customers about power, after all that's why we even have meters is because we care about the output.

John did not lie about power, he just didn't know and had no way to test them; but as soon as his meter from you arrives, I think he's going to get an education about the stuff his suppliers are sending him.
 
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Trevor

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...isn't an LPM kind of irrelevant if they're a drop shipper? :thinking:

-Trevor
 

lasersbee

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Hi Jerry,
I agree, I could care less how he dresses which side of the bed he gets out of.
All I wanted to know was why the deception regarding the DX & PA being the same entity with different names.
I do care about the theft of IP from other websites, much as you would if someone copied your site word for word and then sold the same products you do.

I just looked at my profile and my homepage in my profile is Optotronics Laser Products
It's been in the profile from day 1 since I joined 4 years ago or so.
It's just not in my sig because I don't feel right producing free advertising to my website in every post I make; but if everyone thinks I should, I will put it back in my sig (took it out a couple years back).
Like I said, I'm not a daily or sometimes even monthly poster here, just 500 posts in 4 years; but I thought most old timers that have been here more than a couple years would know who I am, Avery and most if not all the mods know.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in placing your company link
in your Sig... The admin has recently stated that we can....

I agree with you that if someone would copy our website word for
word and then sold the same products... I would be taking care
of it (since it effects me personally and financially)..... not a third
uninvolved party...

[EDIT]
@ twhite828..... I'm not sure of their receiving/shipping process or their
relationship with their supplier...
For all we know... the supplier may be in the same building...


Jerry
 
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Thanks for your replies Jack. I guess I would be bitter too if I got ripped off. This is the main reason I dont post my projects, or art work on the web. With a business you have no choice I suppose.

Like I said earlier Focalprice ripped off DX and did a DoS atteck on their site. Yet no one cared, and people still buy for them. John is trying to make an effort to play it straight, and everyone is jumping on this DX/PA issues. For me these issues dont matter. What matters to me is that he sells onspec lasers, and is showing a honest interest in the hobby. Yes this still remains to be seen, but so far its looks positive. Hopefully everything will work out in the end.
 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong in placing your company link
in your Sig... The admin has recently stated that we can....

I agree with you that if someone would copy our website word for
word and then sold the same products... I would be taking care
of it (since it effects me personally and financially)..... not a third
uninvolved party...


Jerry
Hi Jerry,
The link to my website has been in my profile from the day I joined the LPF or close to that 1st day. It just hasn't been in my signature file.
I'll maybe work on that after I get the corporate income taxes filed by tomorrow.

But, you would like a 3rd party to bring it to your attention if that happened, right?
That's what lead me among other facts to think that DX is aware and is actually owns PA much like techlasers is owned by WL.

My comments about getting a meter and not using it was from the fact that John didn't answer my questions regarding if after getting his meter, the lasers would tested and for instance a laser which he got from his supplier as a "200mw" that only outputs less than 100mw, would be still be sold as 200mw or if we can expect his lasers to be onspec; he didn't answer this question as far as I can tell, but maybe I missed it.

Anyway, have a good weekend Jerry and here's to you for supplying a low cost meter to help keep these guys honest (cheers).

Jack
 
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