Long Range Lasers

[Bionic-Badger]

You think this is trolling? This is not trolling. You are a more likely suspect for any claims of trolling, passing off the most ordinary of ordinary laser pointers as some sort of "quality" investment -- on a laser pointer forum no less.

Start to worry when nobody gives you any critical feedback. That means nobody cares. If all you want to hear is praise and good vibes, go talk to a hippie. That'll be real "productive."

Stop thinking that marketing is going to save you. You need to concentrate on foundations: a product people actually want to buy; building a reputation for your products, not just claiming quality about them; presenting data to back up the claims that can't be validated by meaningful reputation. You're getting way ahead of yourself. Who cares what your site looks like right now if it has no meaningful content? Likewise, what good are your claim of "reliability" or "quality" with nothing to back them up? If you think this is all about marketing you need to get a clue or pander your wares to people who don't know any better.

Wicked Lasers' site is a perfect example of this ridiculous practice, but at least they sell and brand their own laser models, not just sell some crappy lasers found on every site out of Hong Kong. If you want to make claims of "quality" and "reliability" you need to back those statements up with data and proof. So far you have none.

Maybe your undergraduate marketing courses haven't gotten to this yet, but do a little market research before you waste any more time or money. Again, here's a hint: this isn't 2005 anymore. Those NewWish pointers weren't special even when they first came out, and now they're common as ever. Do some research into whether people even care about "reliability" or "quality" on the Yugo of laser pointers, or whether $20 is even worth the cost of "reliability" on an already low-quality laser. Find out how many people would even seek out a green laser regulated down to 5mW instead of being pleasantly surprised to find it overspec.

Consider this a wake-up call. Once you get a clue, you should be thanking me for saving you from wasting any more time and effort.

 

[drspastic]

i wonder how many people care about the details of the pointer they buy except the tiny minority that have it as a real hobby like stamp collecting. i would say there are 2 types of customer, one who wants to wave a colour dot about for a few days and gets bored, throws it in the drawer. the other wants to burn holes in stuff, the bigger and faster the holes, the better. they are the big customer base. not many people have a real use for a laser, or use it as a tool. given the way things are progressing, its only a short time till you can get 20 dollar pointers that really hurt someone, then its banned. end of story. theres always those who like the fancy little housings, be it laser, chillum, thimble, torch, etc and those will always find something expensive to spend all day polishing and admiring, but dont bet your next meal on that as a business.

 

[DontLazeMeBro]

drspastic- as I entered this forum the same thought had crossed my mind. If I were to spend thousands of dollars getting these lasers to the exact specification required by the members here, how many would even care let alone buy one? I may be wasting time talking to those who have a true passion due to my lack of knowledge in the field, but then again I have a passion for lasers as well, it reaches more into the social aspect of them more so than the specifications. Thank you for the input bro!

Bionic-Badger: Every one of our customers thus far would consider this a "quality" and "reliable" laser pointer. Now if customers defining it as "quality" does not make it a quality product then I do not know what does. Most of our customers have been around laser pointers their entire lives and although they may not be experts, they know a quality laser from a poor quality laser. Most of our customers are astronomy enthusiasts that use lasers on a monthly if not weekly basis. We are building a great reputation for our products. I still find it funny that you are feeling so passionately about a product you have never even tried. "go ask a hippie"? You finally have a chance to show off your vast knowledge of the laser world and you choose to use it to be an asshole rather than helping out a fellow laser lover such as yourself. Lol what do you think coming to this forum was to me, this is market research.

 

[ARG]

:shrug:
Was going to buy one and do a review, take the power & wavelength readings, but no shipping to Canada.

 

[svdr]

DontLazeMeBro,
You could be of great help to the worldwide astronomy enthousiasts if you could bring us a decent, cheap 5mW green (or 10mW blue) laser that wouldn't suffer the cold. The Osram PL 450 (blue) and PL 520 (green) diodes are capable of doing just that. You probably aren't aware that almost every astronomer has a 5 mW 532 laserpointer mounted on the telescope nowadays, willing to deal with the fact that their GLP becomes useless when it gets near freezing. With a sales target of probably a couple of million amateur astronomers worldwide, even these expensive diodes will dump enormously in price by the rules off mass demand, and profit will be big. A cold resistant 5mW 520GLP would be a huge and explosive market!

That would involve research, quality controll and reliability. Four heavy loaden words that one would expect from a new company driven by foreseeing managers worth their university degrees.

 

[DontLazeMeBro]

svdr: I cannot thank you enough for that recommendation!! We have had that exact problem in the past and have been searching for a diode that can operate no matter the temperature. We will look into this Osram PL 450 and PL 520! How much do you know about the Osram PL 450/520? Selling in the winter in Utah had been a nightmare due to the temperature effects on the diodes. Great information, I'll start researching it right now!

Again thank you very much for the insight!
Long Range Lasers

 

[drspastic]

i come from a electronics design background, and seeing your product i imagine the best way to solve the cold problem is to sell a heated sleeve. its the nature of semiconductors that they perform best within narrow temperature limits. trying to work around this using electronics alone is futile, picking the latest components is not cost effective. inside professional communication equipment the most sensitive parts, for example reference crystals, are housed in an 'oven'. its just a small enclosure fitted with a thermostat and heating wire. you dont move the mountain to mohummud! you could make a very simple heated sleeve for a couple of dollars and fit the laser inside. this also means you warm the batteries, another problem item in subzero climes. im no astronomer but i imagine telescope mounted lasers would only be used for very short times to aim, so they need to be ready on standby. also the size of the pointer will be less critical, making an external battery pack and remote switch less of a problem as the device is not going in a pocket. i imagine you can tap into a 12v line on the telescopes motorised mount.
i only found high power heating sleeves on the net, but think about a short piece of aluminium tube to fit the laser, wind on enough turns of insulated heating wire (nicrome) to suit the voltage you will run from, then one turn of glass fibre matting and heatshrink it in black tube. 50 units should come in at a dollar each or less. you wont really need and temperature control, but to be posh maybe a autoreset thermal fuse like you get in li-ion battery packs if you can get one for a low enough temperature. or one of these: Hwalon Pptc Resettable Thermal Fuse - Buy Hwalon Pptc,Resettable Thermal Fuse,Pptc Dip Fuse Product on Alibaba.com sandwiched next to the heating wire will give pretty minimal but effective control loop at a price you can ignore. most equipment has one, the rest, including standard high power pointers should have one to avoid thermal runaway and diode/battery meltdown.

 

[svdr]

drspastic,
I am a chemical engineer and I do have at least certain knowledge of basic electronics. Your words certainly express great value. However, in this particular case you are not completely up to the exact point. 532nm lasers do stop working at low temps because of internal alignment problems due cold. I don't know what manufacturer's product you are talking about, but I have never seen a heating wire in any of my 532nm lasers lasing chamber. All there is, is an IR diode, and 2 crystals. And an IR filter if you're Lucky.

About the batteries : here in Europe we use Energizer Lithium batteries to power our GLP's. They do well up to -15°C. By the moment temps reach that deep value, the GLP died long time before that. Batteries aren't the problem.

By using a direct diode laser, these problems can be avoided.

 

[svdr]

DontLazeMeBro,
450nm diodes are common products nowadays at $ 45/pc, and even 520nm's are now going fastly towards $100/pc, and below soon enough. This is getting well within reach of the occasional DIY (which this forum is plenty of!!).

There is no point in bringing such lasers at to high prices. A decent business plan, and mass production (China!) will be sufficient to bring these at prices below $10/pc.

 

[HitShane]

Maybe you should build your own pointers by hand and make a review showing the entire build process with proof of output.

 

[drspastic]

drspastic,
I am a chemical engineer and I do have at least certain knowledge of basic electronics. Your words certainly express great value. However, in this particular case you are not completely up to the exact point. 532nm lasers do stop working at low temps because of internal alignment problems due cold. I don't know what manufacturer's product you are talking about, but I have never seen a heating wire in any of my 532nm lasers lasing chamber. All there is, is an IR diode, and 2 crystals. And an IR filter if you're Lucky.

About the batteries : here in Europe we use Energizer Lithium batteries to power our GLP's. They do well up to -15°C. By the moment temps reach that deep value, the GLP died long time before that. Batteries aren't the problem.

By using a direct diode laser, these problems can be avoided.

i didnt know that alignment was the issue with low temperature, thats very interesting, in my electronics experience the crystals we use are resonators ans change frequency with thermal expansion. clearly lasers are a different mechanism. i have learnt something new, thanks. in my comment i wasnt refering to lasers having heaters built in, but i was suggesting this approach to keep lasers at a standby temperature, the thermister/thermal fuse is good to regulate the temperature cheaply, and i think all electronics that have limited heat dissipation ie, big power/small heatsink size can benefit of thermal cutout to protect the diode and batteries. my 1w blue heats up like a bugger after a few minutes use, housing and batteries. i am also in europe, eastern europe. we see winter temperatures hit -40 and all batteries suffer. i keep car batteries in the house overnight, cameras, phones, torches in a warm inner pocket near skin. my portable hf tranciever takes ni-mh cells and these are NOT happy at all. in summer we go to +45c and get other problems. i wonder if high temperatures play havoc with dpss systems as well?
another question one of you can clear up for me, do dpss always have that nice round dot shape rather than the square from a direct ld? can you get a round dot from an ld? round suits optics better for a long beam, am i right?

 

[Bionic-Badger]

Bionic-Badger: Every one of our customers thus far would consider this a "quality" and "reliable" laser pointer. Now if customers defining it as "quality" does not make it a quality product then I do not know what does.

How about people that actually have a clue about what "quality" really means?

Think about your customers: they're a bunch of astronomy nuts who go out and look at stars, star-point for maybe 10 seconds at a time and then go home. Why would anyone take their evaluations of "quality" at face value? Do they even know what "quality" means, or put their products through any kind of meaningful tests to provide a useful evaluation?

Ever read those reviews on products such as cameras on CNET where the customer proclaims "this is my first camera and I don't know anything about cameras, but I think it's great!" How useful is that review?

Most of our customers have been around laser pointers their entire lives and although they may not be experts, they know a quality laser from a poor quality laser.

By what means? That it turns on? That the beam looks bright? Those are flimsy, pointless metrics.

Furthermore, these are the kind of people who would buy any laser pointer and consider it "good quality." They don't know better.

Most of our customers are astronomy enthusiasts that use lasers on a monthly if not weekly basis.

Oh wow, a monthly or weekly basis! Gee, guess what? Any laser is going to hold up under those conditions. You're not selling anything special or particularly high quality; the only difference is that you're overcharging for ordinary products.

We are building a great reputation for our products.

Oh really, based on whom? People who know so little that any bright laser would be impressive?

I still find it funny that you are feeling so passionately about a product you have never even tried. "go ask a hippie"?

Go read above again: go ask a hippie if all you want is positive feedback. Get used to hearing things that may be counter to your preconceived notions.

You finally have a chance to show off your vast knowledge of the laser world and you choose to use it to be an asshole rather than helping out a fellow laser lover such as yourself. Lol what do you think coming to this forum was to me, this is market research.

I am giving you good information: I've already informed you that you're selling one of the most ordinary laser pointers ever made that people will balk at for $20. That even if you were selling some pointer that isn't so ordinary, that your claims of "quality" and "reliability", both of your own products and of the competition, to justify your price, are unfounded. That you need information with real credibility to back them up (no, taking your Chinese suppliers at their word, or quotes from astronomy nuts using them on a weekly or monthly basis are not credible). That you're ignoring the above and concentrating on stuff that is not important at this point like the appearance of a site nobody is visiting.

This is like trying to sell a "super high quality, reliable BIC pen" for $10. Even if I thought a BIC pen were worth paying $10 for that kind of reliability or quality, what proof do you have that your pen really lives up to your promises? Certainly the disposable BIC pen packaging isn't going to be that convincing. Nor are some quotes from your local chapter of dentists who happen to use pens either. Think about this kind of skepticism.

 

[drspastic]

wow! give him a break already, its not like hes run off with your wife or something.
if astronomers are happy because his laser turns on, points, and they can see it point to a star, thats a 100% perfect product.
nobody can run a business making unique pointers with nasa acuracy in solid gold hosts. you would have about 50 customers worldwide who are rich and give a crap. 10 of those might be able to afford more than one. then your bread runs out.
why do you think the chinese own america? they make stuff people can afford. not the best but better than sod all. if you dont like that then get your chinese cellphone, camera, tv, hifi, and pc, and burn it cos its ALL CHINESE and if you paid more money you might get a posh sticker on it or the parts might have got assembled by mexicans to get the patriotic 'made in usa' sticker. jog on, its all chinese. learn economics.

 

[DontLazeMeBro]

hakzaw1- Tried to delete the other post, couldn't figure it out. I am not here to disrespect anyone. I am not used to forums, I am much more used to face to face meetings where people tend to be much less condescending. I do agree with most of the people here on most things and I am grateful for the information.
Do the pointers you want to sell have quality IR filters?
We do have IR filters but I am unsure of the quality, I will find that information out. What defines a quality vs. poor quality IR filter?
Will they be sold with a warranty?
We will provide a 30 day warranty
Did you know that DLMB was already in use by a vet here? (sorta)
I did not know about the other user "DontLazeMeBro"
Why have you failed to fill out your personal proflie?
It jsut never crossed my mind this is the first forum I have ever joined, still figuring out the rules and all that good stuff
Where is your introduction thread?
Along with the last question I did not know it was required to fill out an introduction thread
We like to get to a little more about you in the 'WELCOME' section before you start trying to sell your products.
Fair
First impression can make a huge difference at this forum..
Lol based on my negative 200 points I am learning that.

Bionic-Badger: "you're ignoring the above and concentrating on stuff that is not important at this point like the appearance of a site nobody is visiting." I am getting a lot of information thrown at me right now and I will be doing my best to improve on all boards, it would not make sense to ignore the fact that the website looks poor. Appreciate the attempted metaphor with pens but its just not the same and you know that, so please with all do respect, lose the condescending tone. That being said I do appreciate the information you have provided me with.

drspastic: Thank you for understanding the kind of situation I am in and I appreciate the backup. All of these guys do prove some valid points and I so appreciate the information they have given me. I Like the "nobody can run a business making unique pointers with nasa acuracy in solid gold hosts" part haha, but at the same time I do have to improve the quality where it makes sense to.

 

[Presentteck]

op:

I'm with livinloud on this one op:


But in all seriousness DontLazeMeBro, how much research into the topic of lasers did you do before deciding to start this company? More importantly before you advertised it here, on one of the most concentrated places for laser knowledge I've ever come across.

I may not have been on this forum for a long time, but I was probably reading it for 3 solid weeks before I even joined. Still to this day I read more than I post because I want to know more.
I actually just sold some lasers in the same host for about the price your selling, but there was one difference. My lasers were built By hand using a laser module with a good reputation, decent heat-sinking (for this host), and I made it look a LOT better than the plastic caps at the end that these hosts normally use. I took time and put some craftsmanship into my product to help set it apart.
I don't have an LPM either, but I do have a 532nm laser tested at 50mW to compare with, and take photos and videos to compare, demonstrate and give a decent estimate of their power output. I'm at least trying.

I wouldn't even have used this host if I didn't already have a few laying around from pointers like the ones your trying to sell for 4X the cost. If you look in the forum you can find people doing the same thing as you to some extent, but they actually LPM the pen and charge maybe $14 max for the highest of their over-specs. The only reason they can do this is because they are giving the customer a REAL guarantee of the exact power output.

You on the other hand weren't even ready to present the factory specs when you were asked. You've done more now, but still a ways off.
Also, Go take some new photos for your website with goggles on, I know it's been mentioned before, but yeah it's pretty bad.

You might want to take a week to reorganize things, maybe, your choice.

 

[DontLazeMeBro]

Presentteck: I appreciate the honesty and your tone was far from condescending, thank you. I respect what you are doing for the laser community, we are having a meeting tonight and the goggles will be ordered so every picture that is taken from us from now where there is a human involved, they will be wearing goggles. We plan on reorganizing and although the way we conduct business is very different I have a lot I could learn from you. After the goggles what do you feel would be the next best step forward?

Long Range Lasers