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[ixfd64]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Aryntha, that was an interesting read. Thanks for providing insight from a pilot's perspective.

 

[ossumguywill]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

I voted any power considering it ignored focus, wavelength, etc. I point my >1W 445 into the sky all the time, I just keep it unfocused and watch out for any aircraft.

 

[hxdrummerxc]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Serious question.......
Because I have always wondered.

Can you even see a laser beam straight up in the sky from miles away?
(considering that it is not pointing at you.... but just up into the sky)

I did a test one day, and I drove a few blocks away and shined my 150mw green laser straight up into the sky (made sure there was nothing flying above me)

and I had some people back at home tell me if they could see it, and they couldn't.

It is only when I shined the laser at an angle (at a tree top near them) that they were able to see the beam from that far away. It seemed like from that distance, unless you are somewhat looking down the beam, or at an angle similar to that, you can't see the beam.

This could be because I live in a big city, and all the city lights pollute the sky, making it harder to see the laser beam at night.... but even if you set your laser on a tripod pointed into the sky, and walk a little distance and look back, the beam is much much less visible than if you are holding it (looking down the beam).

Is it different from an airplanes perspective?
aryntha, have you ever seen a laser pointed into the sky off in the distance?

This is a question that I ask myself just about every time I shine my laser into the sky.

 

[Xplorer877]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

^I agree!

Even with a powerful laser, seeing the beam when you're perpendicular to it is very hard.

Only if the light is movie towards the viewer at a low angle can the beam be seen. That is due to Mie Scattering. You ever notice that the beam is more visible if the light is coming towards you? It seems to contradict what you'd think would happen, but the light gets scattered forward more that it does backwards.

-Tony

 

[aryntha]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Well, yes, keep in mind though, when you're in an airplane, pretty much any laser is facing upwards towards you. So they are rather visible.

 

[EhdisChris]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Good read.
thanks for all the info!

 

[loosekannonn]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Plexus,
just so you know,
we live (you in T.O. and me in St.Cath.) smack in the middle of the heaviest air traffic area in the World.
you figure Toronto, Hamilton, Niagara, Buffalo, New York and so on....
there is so much air traffic around here if your going to play out side with your lasers, you might just want to keep people watching for aircraft 100% of the time.
just because it was clear a moment ago, doesn't mean it still is now.

 

[KGB_Productions]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

This is a great site for aircraft monitoring. I sometimes use this site,or others, to track planes while I'm doing outdoor shows. FlightAware > Live Flight Tracker

 

[aryntha]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Keep in mind FlightTracker will only report planes with Mode C transponders. It will not report traffic without transponders, and while it is becoming less common, there are still plenty of aircraft that do not operate Mode C.

 

[Wonly]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

I am a pilot, and for the first time just this summer, I was "tracked" at a low altitude by a cheap green. (Over Denver ~ 7500ft MSL. (~1800ft AGL) near DIA/KDEN) I was in Class Bravo with a strict heading given by control, so I couldn't do much to avoid it.

While it was -very- unnerving, I pretty much just concentrated on instruments until I was out of his (Rather unsteady at that distance) range.

I thought about posting it on here, but I'm not really one to kick up drama, and while it was curious, it didn't cause much trouble. The beam was so diffuse at that point it was really little more than a confusion/orientation/distraction issue than an optical issue.

That said, from my point of view:

-If I saw a laser being shined into the sky at a distance, I wouldn't really care. Is that just because I'm an LPF member? ... maybe. None of the other pilots I hang around, I believe, would report a beam seen 10, 30, 50 miles away. We see lots of things at night. Most would go "oh look. A laser."

-I don't want to diminish the effect at altitude, as after that green (It DOES light up the entire cockpit, even if monentarily, and when you're dark-adjusted, even a not-so-amazingly-intense green light can blow that all to hell.) I could see myself getting dizzy from the shaky movement. Imagine you're flying at night, concentrating on navaids and what control is trying to tell you (sometimes there are a lot of other planes in the area) and suddenly a disco ball drops from your cockpit and the small space turns into a mini rave. That's kind of what it's like. Was I at risk of collision? No. Vectoring into another aircraft's path due to confusion? Could happen. Didn't.

-The above stated, I'm more worried about this kind of thing on approach and landing. Say, from a field near the airport, or a nearby hotel. That.. would be bad. Really bad. When I'm coming in on final and I'm 500 AGL, some joker with a PGL picking "low hanging fruit" to "see what happens" is probably the one scenario I hope I never encounter. The last thing you need at that moment is to get pegged (even temporarily) in one eye, and lose all depth perception. Runways look different at night, the only sense of distance you have comes from your eyes focusing on the perspective/parallax of the runway. There's not much margin for error. (The common adage of 'modern planes land themselves' isn't quite true. Modern planes 'get on and stay on glide slope' themselves. Landing, in those last few seconds, is always an issue of experience and finesse.)

I will say though with all reality and seriousness though: If you don't see a or hear plane,

-It's too high for it to matter
-There is no plane.

And few if any pilots are going to veer off course and check out your beam just to snitch to the FAA.

Helicopters, I cannot speak for. I've never flown one, they generally operate far lower, and are far more maneuverable.

But overall, as a pilot, if you make sure no planes are around, I don't really care if you shoot your beam into the sky, even if I can see it.

Other pilots' MMV. We're just folks. There are people on the road who get infuriated if they see someone going 57mph in a 55mph. And there are pilots who would likely lose their sh*t if they saw a laser in the sky 5 miles to the east.

I think though, overall, most would not care, if you're not endangering them.

Please do not confuse this with the other posts i've made on the matter, of aviation and lasers being a serious problem. They are. But yes, the issue is mainly low-altitude tracking, on takeoff or landing, or in the case of helicopters, low altitude tagging/tracking in general.

In addition to optical/visual problems, as I explained before, lasers can be confused with emergency tower light gun signals, or runway/airport lighting, which is another problem alltogether.

But in general, "airplanes at cruise" and the pilots in them are not going to be your problem. We're not the Sky Police or the Laser Police. Use common sense and watch for aircraft, make sure the area is clear, and you're golden.

A bigger concern would be neighbors seeing it and calling the police, than a distant pilot seeing it and contacting the FAA.

Hopefully I didn't water down the seriousness of this issue. In summary, I don't believe you should "never point your laser into the sky". Just don't be an idiot about it, at any power output.

As was said above by Xplorer877,



Correct.

Being that im on the control end of this one "un-authorized" lasing is a very big no no especially if a pilot reports it we (controllers) have to tell every aircraft flying in the vicinity of the report where its coming from and anything known about it, its a real pain in the ass to sum it up. (i like to hear the pilot side of things since i dont often get them in the RAPCON) i also understand that light gun part though i never thought about that they use the green, red and white which is most common lasers (except white)

 

[millirad]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Don't point anything into the airspace of any airport "ever". That said, if you are not near an airport and carefully look for aircraft beacons, which means clicky "off" if you do see or hear anything, then go ahead and enjoy pointing out stars and constellations. Or just enjoy looking at the beam itself, at any power you wish. If there is no aircraft, it's the safest way to enjoy the beam. Now, if a law enforcement officer happens to be patrolling nearby and spots your beam, don't be surprised by the hefty fine you receive for pointing a >5mw beam into the sky. Remember, technically you can not own a >5mw laser outside of your basement with "blacked out" windows. ;-) When there are no aircraft, the risk you are willing to take, is that no law enforcement officer is going to spot your beam and track it back to your location. Unless that LEO happens to be a member of LPF.

 

[Flaminpyro]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Three cheers for this man for stepping forward and telling it like it realy is :bowdown:

I am a pilot, and for the first time just this summer, I was "tracked" at a low altitude by a cheap green. (Over Denver ~ 7500ft MSL. (~1800ft AGL) near DIA/KDEN) I was in Class Bravo with a strict heading given by control, so I couldn't do much to avoid it.

While it was -very- unnerving, I pretty much just concentrated on instruments until I was out of his (Rather unsteady at that distance) range.

I thought about posting it on here, but I'm not really one to kick up drama, and while it was curious, it didn't cause much trouble. The beam was so diffuse at that point it was really little more than a confusion/orientation/distraction issue than an optical issue.

That said, from my point of view:

-If I saw a laser being shined into the sky at a distance, I wouldn't really care. Is that just because I'm an LPF member? ... maybe. None of the other pilots I hang around, I believe, would report a beam seen 10, 30, 50 miles away. We see lots of things at night. Most would go "oh look. A laser."

-I don't want to diminish the effect at altitude, as after that green (It DOES light up the entire cockpit, even if monentarily, and when you're dark-adjusted, even a not-so-amazingly-intense green light can blow that all to hell.) I could see myself getting dizzy from the shaky movement. Imagine you're flying at night, concentrating on navaids and what control is trying to tell you (sometimes there are a lot of other planes in the area) and suddenly a disco ball drops from your cockpit and the small space turns into a mini rave. That's kind of what it's like. Was I at risk of collision? No. Vectoring into another aircraft's path due to confusion? Could happen. Didn't.

-The above stated, I'm more worried about this kind of thing on approach and landing. Say, from a field near the airport, or a nearby hotel. That.. would be bad. Really bad. When I'm coming in on final and I'm 500 AGL, some joker with a PGL picking "low hanging fruit" to "see what happens" is probably the one scenario I hope I never encounter. The last thing you need at that moment is to get pegged (even temporarily) in one eye, and lose all depth perception. Runways look different at night, the only sense of distance you have comes from your eyes focusing on the perspective/parallax of the runway. There's not much margin for error. (The common adage of 'modern planes land themselves' isn't quite true. Modern planes 'get on and stay on glide slope' themselves. Landing, in those last few seconds, is always an issue of experience and finesse.)

I will say though with all reality and seriousness though: If you don't see a or hear plane,

-It's too high for it to matter
-There is no plane.

And few if any pilots are going to veer off course and check out your beam just to snitch to the FAA.

Helicopters, I cannot speak for. I've never flown one, they generally operate far lower, and are far more maneuverable.

But overall, as a pilot, if you make sure no planes are around, I don't really care if you shoot your beam into the sky, even if I can see it.

Other pilots' MMV. We're just folks. There are people on the road who get infuriated if they see someone going 57mph in a 55mph. And there are pilots who would likely lose their sh*t if they saw a laser in the sky 5 miles to the east.

I think though, overall, most would not care, if you're not endangering them.

Please do not confuse this with the other posts i've made on the matter, of aviation and lasers being a serious problem. They are. But yes, the issue is mainly low-altitude tracking, on takeoff or landing, or in the case of helicopters, low altitude tagging/tracking in general.

In addition to optical/visual problems, as I explained before, lasers can be confused with emergency tower light gun signals, or runway/airport lighting, which is another problem alltogether.

But in general, "airplanes at cruise" and the pilots in them are not going to be your problem. We're not the Sky Police or the Laser Police. Use common sense and watch for aircraft, make sure the area is clear, and you're golden.

A bigger concern would be neighbors seeing it and calling the police, than a distant pilot seeing it and contacting the FAA.

Hopefully I didn't water down the seriousness of this issue. In summary, I don't believe you should "never point your laser into the sky". Just don't be an idiot about it, at any power output.

As was said above by Xplorer877,



Correct.

 

[muchuanlin]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

Thanks very much
Ok well as a friend on facebook said, "Pointing the laser in the sky is the best way to measure the distance of the moon. We need to know if the sky is falling."
:gun: :banned:

 

[BobFarmer]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

I'm in the San Diego area, I'm a laser owner, and I'm a GA pilot out of MYF. I like the "don't do it" approach. People who think they can look up and make sure there aren't any planes around don't know much about aviation. Planes can be at altitudes requiring special optics to see them, assuming they aren't being blocked by even a small cloud. Most of the lasers today will shoot right through a cloud. Most GA planes, although equipped with mode C, are virtually invisible to the naked eye above just a few thousand feet AGL.

I was on the news last week because I landed just ahead of a GA crash at my airport due to a malfunctioning door. We pilots don't need any more to deal with, aviation workloads are already high enough without dodging laser beams. It isn't that a pilot sucks if he/she can't keep flying after a laser 'strike.' The pilots don't simply crash or not crash. They can sustain eye damage, become disoriented, etc. For anyone who thinks that's funny, I have a 450mW Optotronics RPL with a 3x expander on it for you to stare at.

As an aside, I do agree with nearly everything aryntha said above, especially on short final. My "don't do it" opinion though is that I don't want to leave judgment regarding whether or not I will be impacted by your laser up to you. You don't know my situation as a pilot, so I'd rather just not have you deciding that I should or shouldn't eat your laser beam.

 

[ossumguywill]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

I'm in the San Diego area, I'm a laser owner, and I'm a GA pilot out of MYF. I like the "don't do it" approach. People who think they can look up and make sure there aren't any planes around don't know much about aviation. Planes can be at altitudes requiring special optics to see them, assuming they aren't being blocked by even a small cloud. Most of the lasers today will shoot right through a cloud. Most GA planes, although equipped with mode C, are virtually invisible to the naked eye above just a few thousand feet AGL.

I was on the news last week because I landed just ahead of a GA crash at my airport due to a malfunctioning door. We pilots don't need any more to deal with, aviation workloads are already high enough without dodging laser beams. It isn't that a pilot sucks if he/she can't keep flying after a laser 'strike.' The pilots don't simply crash or not crash. They can sustain eye damage, become disoriented, etc. For anyone who thinks that's funny, I have a 450mW Optotronics RPL with a 3x expander on it for you to stare at.

As an aside, I do agree with nearly everything aryntha said above, especially on short final. My "don't do it" opinion though is that I don't want to leave judgment regarding whether or not I will be impacted by your laser up to you. You don't know my situation as a pilot, so I'd rather just not have you deciding that I should or shouldn't eat your laser beam.

There's no way in hell that any laser that gets pointed in to the sky irresponsibly makes it through a cloud. Maybe military/lab/observatory lasers, but then they would for sure have the proper training to do so. At cruising altitude, most of our lasers will be at least 50 feet in diameter-meaning you won't even be able to notice it, much less if it's going through a cloud. The danger to pilots is at low altitude, so if you can't see any planes then they're probably too far away to be affected.

 

[Moebius]

Re: Lasers and aircraft

The sky over my house is mine. I share some of it with NASA. It's about freedom man, watch the Astronaut Farmer. BUT.......... no BUTTS!!!