Kepler Goes Down :(

[Lazerbeak]

long ago I accepted that death is the price of life. "the universe is hostile, so impersonal, devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been"-TOOL-Vicarious

I grew up wanting to "believe" in a Utopian future or a "Deity". Now I just believe that any kindness or compassion in this world is the result of an individual choice. I choose to be kind or cruel when the situation arises as do we all.

~ LB

 

[RA_pierce]

Hm. I guess my first post was translated into something about utopia, however I assure you that by "common goal" I did not mean "we will live like communist hippies."
:gh:

I just think it's a nice idea for the world to share curiosity and discovery.
After all, the foundation of our modern civilization(s) is made up of the cumulative knowledge of many cultures.
It's a shame that so many things get in the way of international relationships... and the love of science!
It seems that superficial differences like religion and politics blocks communication.
For example... Eastern cultures have contributed so much to math & science but political disagreements between them and the west has led to them blowing each other up instead of solving real problems...
I'm referring to what's been happening in the middle east.

Edit: Thread derailed.

 

[Bionic-Badger]

I don't think that sending humans to space is a high priority for space exploration but I do think that the ISS represents something that is good...
It shows that different humans can unite with a singular goal... for science! After all, it is the International Space Station.

Well symbolism is nice... but I'd prefer alternatives to a space hotel that does little for anyone. The fact that the ISS is basically ignored by all participating nations (other than having ponied up the cash) shows, to me, that it really isn't achieving meaningful goals -- even in the service of uniting (rather connecting) nations under science.

I see your point. And I agree that most people don't really care. But I don't see why that is a reason to stop the people who do care from doing the research. Yeah it's money from "the people" but who really gives a shit anyway? That money isn't going toward improving public education or fixing pot holes in the street so it might as well pay for something awesome like searching for possible habitable planets.

Well, I give a shit. I don't want to fund every person's idea of what should be funded by everyone else. These $1.3 Billion flights just to see "if ants can sort tiny screws in space" (to borrow a line from the Simpsons) are a huge waste of resources.

The alternative could be, you know, not taking the money from us taxpayers in the first place?

Better yet, at least put the money towards something like a Space Elevator, rather than space missions that are so expensive that we could literally be harvesting gold ingots in space and it would not be worth the cost.

And searching for habitable planets, that's one of those "that's nice" kinds of things. We'll never even image one, let alone visit it. If we want to perform the latter, we better work on finding some way (if it is possible at all) of going fast enough that it doesn't take thousands of years to reach them. Otherwise, it's all another no-relevancy area of research that just receives "artist renditions" on the news.

Ok. But knowledge does have a significant impact on behavior and social structure... Even culture and religion.
Our world is the way it is because our understanding of it has evolved.
New knowledge, new ideas, and free information changes our perspective. Information gives us new ways to understand ourselves and new ways to adapt.

This is not a call to stop research, but more to concentrate on research that has greater use. I'm not even opposed to space research. It's the type of space research -- mainly those pointless manned missions -- that I have a problem with. They're just to research how more people can go into space. It ends up being space tourism research. Ironically, space tourism has really been the only useful commercial application those manned missions have been put towards.

Of course, we don't have to focus on space exploration in order to gain new knowledge. But space is there. So why not? "Because we can" is a good enough reason. IMO.

I've got a mug of tea on my desk right here. The world should pay me hundreds of billions of dollars to investigate why it tastes so good to me. "Because we can" is a good enough reason. Hell, we don't even have to travel into orbit to find out so in that respect we'd be ahead of the game compared to space research. Pick your poison.

Particle physics is another very expensive project... It just so happens that when we meet the limit of our understanding, there is a high cost to surpass it. But if we can do it, why not?

Hey, that's better than sending people into orbit to investigate how to have more people in orbit.

Now, about the money thing... what would you say is more urgent, important, or relevant for us to invest time and money in?
Protecting our immediate environment (Earth)?
Curing disease? (is eliminating disease even a good idea?)
Alternative fuels?

Many other things that don't need to be listed. At the very least: technologies that reduce the costs of other technologies. So if we're going to investigate space, at least investigate the means to get to space cheaply. It's like researching how to make a shovel before trying to dig for water.

Until then, we can still use rockets to send our unmanned vessels, satellites, etc. into space. Wasting our resources to move sacks of flesh and all the life-support tech with it is just ridiculous however.

Could a space elevator throw off earth's rotation? would it be wise to build one on opposite sides of the globe to maintain balance?

Earth's a very massive planetary body. The weight of a space elevator, or really anything man has ever created is insignificant compared to that of this planet. You could probably use the entire above-water landmass of the planet and it wouldn't affect things much. You do need to counterweight the space elevator itself so that when you move objects from the surface that the center of mass remains in orbit.

 

[Shakenawake]

sorry guys. I feel partly, even largely responsible for thread derailment, my mind shoots in all different directions at times.

I asked about the space elevator throwing off rotation because I heard that all the fresh water reservoirs being made in the northern hemisphere could affect earth's wobble a bit. A sufficiently large lever and stationary fulcrum would allow a person to lift the earth. I don't think it too arrogant to conceive that we are capable of effecting the entire world, rather, we should assume responsibility for it's well-being.

I wonder how deeply rooted a space elevator would need to be?

really great thread. hope Daguin isn't too mad about the direction it's taken

 

[Lazerbeak]

Me bad too.

Bad habit of derailing threads. Sorry

Back on track. It looks like Kepler will actually be able to continue its mission in a more limited capacity and that the search for exo-planets will continue in earnest

Planet-Hunting Kepler Mission's Legacy Assured | Exoplanets | Space.com

Live long, and prosper,

~ LB

I don't think you're a hippie RA

 

[RA_pierce]

It's the type of space research -- mainly those pointless manned missions -- that I have a problem with. They're just to research how more people can go into space. It ends up being space tourism research. Ironically, space tourism has really been the only useful commercial application those manned missions have been put towards.

No argument here. Although I wouldn't consider space tourism "useful" either.

I've got a mug of tea on my desk right here. The world should pay me hundreds of billions of dollars to investigate why it tastes so good to me.

Well we could do that research and it probably won't cost billions of dollars. And I think someone who specializes in sensory perception could probably answer that for you at no cost.
And it doesn't answer the "are we alone?" question either. Of course the importance of that question is arbitrary...

Many other things ... at least investigate the means to get to space cheaply. It's like researching how to make a shovel before trying to dig for water.

Until then, we can still use rockets to send our unmanned vessels, satellites, etc. into space. Wasting our resources to move sacks of flesh and all the life-support tech with it is just ridiculous however.

The shovel analogy is a good one. And the "sacks of flesh" one... LOL
According to some stuff in the media, research for alternatives to rockets is being done (I'm sure you're aware) but I don't think that the success of these projects is completely dependent on funding. Not to say the scientists aren't doing a good job but it seems like some of the ideas are not quite mature. Although the elevator does seem to be the most practical.

I understand your gripe with the ISS. You make some good points and I don't disagree with you... Except on the position that Kepler's research isn't much more than novelty. Sure it's not as useful as, say, genetics or developing better materials... but philosophy is an important part of human culture. We are human, and we are integrated in some culture. I'd like to think that someday we will discover extraterrestrial life (in my lifetime would be great) and I'd be interested to see what effect it has on us... if any.
I'm not saying Kepler is the best possible use for billions of dollars of taxpayers' money but I don't think it's a waste.

 

[Lazerbeak]

op:

~ LB

 

[daguin]

hope Daguin isn't too mad about the direction it's taken

:crackup: You don't know me very well :crackup:

1) the human search/desire for knowledge

2) the technologies developed in the space program that are useful and beneficial in present day life

3) "small" laboratories to learn how to survive the long journey to another home, once we reach saturation on this one and/or poison this one

4) #3 also to learn how to make/power those long journeys

5) #3 to prepare for colonization

Peace,
dave

 

[Shakenawake]

I figured as much Daguin. you seem pretty easy going and enjoy organic conversation. I figured travel to another world and the discussion about not wasting ours was relevant because of kepler's purpose, looking for other worlds to colonize, well that are in habitable zones anyway. to that end, colony ships will be easier to construct with a space elevator, not using so much fuel.

 

[Lazerbeak]

~ LB

 

[Bionic-Badger]

No argument here. Although I wouldn't consider space tourism "useful" either.

Oh I don't think it's useful either, but it's about the most useful thing the manned missions have really contributed to in my mind. Some people have even suggested that there have been some good experiments that taken place involving how viruses/bacteria function in zero gravity and its benefits. But to that I also pose the question: do you need humans there to specifically perform those experiments? After all, we also have automated genetic labs here on earth; why not have those kinds of things in space, rather than shipping humans up there to do what a machine could do better, for longer, and in larger quantities?

Well we could do that research and it probably won't cost billions of dollars. And I think someone who specializes in sensory perception could probably answer that for you at no cost.
And it doesn't answer the "are we alone?" question either. Of course the importance of that question is arbitrary...

No, it'd cost billions of dollars because we've got to dive deep into the "why." We'd develop extremely precise and expensive instruments to study my brainwaves, do endless lab experiments on every aspect of the tea, etc. We can literally "dive" into the complexity of anything, anywhere. Hell, if it costs less to analyze my cup of tea here, we're ahead of the game; the research has about the same use -- or maybe more, because there are more tea drinkers than astronomy nuts.

We could also just ask some astronomer on earth, or a physicist what he thinks about what those balls of burning gas are doing billions of miles away too. Does it fully answer the question? Not really, but do we really need to? Probably not either.

The shovel analogy is a good one. And the "sacks of flesh" one... LOL
According to some stuff in the media, research for alternatives to rockets is being done (I'm sure you're aware) but I don't think that the success of these projects is completely dependent on funding. Not to say the scientists aren't doing a good job but it seems like some of the ideas are not quite mature. Although the elevator does seem to be the most practical.

Funding, or science, or whatever -- we should be concentrating on the tools to make better tools. Not simply jump to the applications the unmade better tools are best suited for -- that is unless it is incredibly important to do so. Sending satellites into space on rockets? Great, yeah, they're really useful. Hell, I don't even oppose telescopes, or probes, or rovers. Just stop sending humans up there. There is no place we will ever be able to visit that will ever even approximate the habitability of even the worst places on Earth. So why are we even bothering except for something like tourism? If for tourism, let the commercial sector deal with that.

I understand your gripe with the ISS. You make some good points and I don't disagree with you... Except on the position that Kepler's research isn't much more than novelty. Sure it's not as useful as, say, genetics or developing better materials... but philosophy is an important part of human culture. We are human, and we are integrated in some culture. I'd like to think that someday we will discover extraterrestrial life (in my lifetime would be great) and I'd be interested to see what effect it has on us... if any.

Philosophy doesn't need satellites in space. Science does maybe. The Greeks were practicing philosophy long before anyone even knew the earth was actually round. Again, I'm not opposed to studying space. After all, if there's some field of study that isn't tapped, somebody will do it, and somebody will fund it. However, we're really putting the cart before the horse with respects to putting people in orbit or on other planets/moons. If those Chinese want to waste their money keeping people on the Moon in some silly moon base as a matter of pride, by all means let them.

Hell, if we really want to find life outside our solar system we better get our space elevator into construction so that we can build a more massive telescope in space. You can't even resolve objects that far away to any meaningful resolution without a large detector.

Finding life outside our planet... I think scientists should figure out how to create synthetic life in a lab so they know what to look for. No, not just amino acids that would supposedly be the "building blocks" and no, not just injecting a cell with genetic material. At least then they might be looking for forms of life that don't just fit into our own planet's.

I'm not saying Kepler is the best possible use for billions of dollars of taxpayers' money but I don't think it's a waste.

It's certainly better than those manned missions, that's for sure.

 

[Lazerbeak]

Perhaps it can be looked at as an expansion of our situational awareness and self-preservation. Scientific evidence suggests that at some point in Earth's past an Extinction Level Event occurred. Asteroid impact is one possible cause. Numerous films have come out recently pointing out this scenario. JPL has a seriously understaffed dept. that monitors NEO's (Near Earth Objects) Near-Earth Object Program

Mining asteroids for resources, moving excess population off-world, knowing when to duck. There are legitimate reasons to be in Space in my opinion.

~ LB

 

[Bionic-Badger]

And where will we go should an extinction event occur? People often forget that space is one of the harshest environments in existence. Other planets, and their moons are no exception. We could literally have an apocalyptic nuclear war and Earth would still be more inhabitable than any place we can visit in space.

Yeah, maybe research into how to prevent such asteroids from causing such an event, but should one occur or be unstoppable? We might as well just stay in cold storage on the surface than believe there is any place out there we're going to set up camp. At the very least the planet will still have a magnetic field to shield us from all that solar radiation, well, unless we suffer a magnetic field reversal.

Maybe one scenario for colonizing places outside Earth is just as a giant labor sink to dump resources into. Without new markets to expand into, economies stagnate. Space may be a great endless pit to throw resources at in order to keep the economic engines running. Kind of a sad end-purpose for space research though.

 

[Lazerbeak]

You're right. In the event of an ELE, there's not much we can do except settle up and wait for the end. Ignorance would be bliss.

What would be a worthy expenditure of resources in your opinion?

~ LB

 

[daguin]

You're right. In the event of an ELE, there's not much we can do except settle up and wait for the end. Ignorance would be bliss.

What would be a worthy expenditure of resources in your opinion?

~ LB

Tequila and hookers

Peace,
dave

 

[jcranmer]

Tequila and hookers

Peace,
dave

Ah that's better. Every time I read the title of this thread I think I'm going to open up a pr0n thread. :eg: