Flaminpyro vs Jayrob SH-032 SS Build (image heavy)

[plexus]

I was wondering the same thing ? where dose he get his info


Well it sounds like Plexus has not told the whole story, it seems he has burned up a diode and a driver and now want's someone else to pay for them !
I was almost ready to replace his 445 diode but then he told me (and I have him PM to post if anyone is interested) that he had the 445 diode lasing for about one hour befor it die'd so if he had it working for that long it was not dead when he recieved it !
Now he has come on here complaning that it was dead from the begining, I think he needs to get his story stright befor he starts asking for replacements.
[snip]

point out to me where i say the diode you sold me was not working from the beginning.

also if you want i will post our PMs. i made it very clear the diode was working then stopped working and you suggested a variety of things that might have caused this due to my error. i addressed each issue and in each case i made no such errors.

there is no conspiracy here. i bought i diode from you, i built it into a laser properly observing all safety and best practices and even more so with the use of a Lasorb. the diode worked, and then it died. i replaced it with a 12x 405 in the exact same build and that laser has been working fine. there were no shorts. the driver was not damaged. the evidence suggests the diode malfunctioned and only after less than an hour of use. you bid me a "have a good day" and I posted my experiences here.

this is a forum for sharing knowledge and experiences and to provide input and insight into this hobby. it is unfortunate that you chose to handle the situation the way you did, but there it is. that was your decision. had you told me from beginning that there was no warranty on the diode, there would not be a problem. no expectations were set by you or jayrob other than i would be "taken care of" by the both of you.

lesson learned: if you are selling things to people. you should tell about your your return and exchange policy. if you buying things from people and they dont tell you what their policy is, ASK!

outside of that, one can argue there is a warrany implied, or there isn't. but since the sellers did not specify either, its simply a matter of opinion. (and not worth arguing about)

as for how does a shorted out diode get damaged by ESD. simple the ESD travels through the shorted leads to the substrate. shorting the leads offers no protection from ESD. if you don't believe me, take your diode, short the leads, apply ESD and test the diode. it will be dead.

 

[Flaminpyro]

OK lets put this to rest, if you bought a semiconductor from digi-key and it burned out after you installed it into you device while you were using it, do you think Digi-Key would replace it, I think not, so why do you think I will ?
come on lets be real here I can not control what you do with your semiconductors nor can I see what you have done to them.
If a 445 burnes out on me do I refund myself :crackup: I think not I just eat the loss and move on, I suggest you do the same.

BTW Plexus would you mind explaining how a shorting jumper that is placed on the diodes leads dosn't protect it from static, I can't wait to here this one

 

[plexus]

Learn to use the multiquote and the edit buttons

OK lets put this to rest, if you bought a semiconductor from digi-key and it burned out after you installed it into you device while you were using it, do you think Digi-Key would replace it, I think not, so why do you think I will ?
come on lets be real here I can not control what you do with your semiconductors nor can I see what you have done to them.
If a 445 burnes out on me do I refund myself :crackup: I think not I just eat the loss and move on, I suggest you do the same.

first of all, you stated above that i effectively lied. i asked you to show where i lied and now you want to put this issue to rest. perhaps you missed my request? can you please show me where i posted that the diode you sold me was dead from the beginning there-by countering my claim that it died while in use?

secondly regarding digikey: i just looked up a laser diode Digi-Key - 425-1807-ND (Manufacturer - GH06550B2B)

This laser diode is NOT from their Chip Outpost Chip Outpost Help | DigiKey

According to their terms and conditions section 14-16, Terms & Conditions | DigiKey

They offer a 30 day return warranty for products not covered under manufacturer warranty. They address user error and state returns may incur a restocking charge. I would assume that things like tools are covered under a manufacture warranty and parts are covered under their warranty (if i had a question about this, i would call them and ask). But i believe that even if I killed the diode through user error there would be an opportunity to get a replacement within 30 days at a nominal restocking cost.

your point?

BTW Plexus would you mind explaining how a shorting jumper that is placed on the diodes leads dosn't protect it from static, I can't wait to here this one

i can't believe i am being asked to explain this. wow.

ESD is of course a high voltage (low current) that causes critical damage to laser diode substrates (google for more info about this, there has been a lot written about it and why). ESD that travels through a laser diode substrate will most likely damage it rending it either unreliable or inoperable (there are videos of this on the Lasorb site, if you want to see a demo).

All that is needed is an electrical path to and through the substrate. the only way to prevent ESD from getting to the substrate is to provide another more conductive path for the ESD. one way to do this is to run the leads to ground. if ESD was imposed through the leads, it would take the path to ground instead of going into the diode.

SO whether you short the leads or not there is still no better path for the ESD to travel than into the diode. Some voltage might jump from the leads to the case, however they are isolated and there is a more conductive path through and into the diode case. in fact one could argue that shorting the leads provides and even BETTER path for the voltage.

of course ESD wants to follow a path otherwise it just dissipates into the air. but the path through the leads, into the substrate and then perhaps through the case, as the diode substrate appears to be closer and/or less insulated to the case at a aperture than the leads do going into the case. but even if the leads going into the case, to the case, were more conductive, the voltage would then flow leads -> case -> substrate through the aperture.

bottom line is shorting the leads does not protect a diode from ESD and the current has no better place to go and i would say shorting them provides an even more conductive path to the substrate than not.

maybe because you shorted the leads FP, there was an ESD issue in removal or shipping that caused the diode to malfunction? all i know is that on my end, i and my soldering iron were grounded via a ground strap, the diode was removed from packaging, a Lasorb was immediately attached and the work progressed from there.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[Morgan]

I think you're misinterpretting the Terms and Conditions PLexus. The Chip Outpost products are bought on the understanding they are a non-cancellable and a non-returnable and manufacturer's warrantee do not apply at all.

Section 16 deals with the limited warranty offered by Digi-key alone, (as a favour to it's customers rather than a requirement I feel), and this is only subject to correct use and no abuse; protection from ESD and a variety of other clauses that include, '... installation in an unsuitable environment...' and, '... used for purposes other than for which is was designed...' and, if it can't be tested, the warranty is void.

This says to me that... No, user error is not covered by the warranty but the likelyhood is that it would be much easier and cheaper for Digi-Key to ship you a new diode than to investigate and find out it was your fault. If you told them it was your fault, however, I think it unlikely you would be sent anything.

Unfortunately, any diode from any source that we use is likely to be misused, abused, and installed in an unsuitable environment and used for purposes other than for which it was designed. The risk is ever present for failure and it is rare for a warranty to be offered by any seller here, although simply being decent people means the buyer is not normally penalised. For a diode to work and then fail is a fact of life in this hobby and, frankly, moaning about it and what you perceive as poor customer service could ultimately make it harder for you to purchase, not harder for Jayrob or Flaminpyro to sell. They are not retailers, they are hobbyists.

... And, will you please stop double posting in almost every thread you comment in and go back and edit the one post if your replies are only minutes apart.



Digi-Key terms and conditions, (if you're interested)

15. Chip Outpost. Chip Outpost Products are excess inventory products. Chip Outpost Products include, without limitation, excess electronic components that are provided directly from the Product supplier or as part of a supplier-authorized channel return from a franchised distributor. Digi-Key believes that Chip Outpost Products are high-quality; however, these products may include certain imperfections, including, but not limited to, aged date codes, or may have been discontinued and/or obsoleted by the manufacturer. Chip Outpost Products quantities are limited and are not available for backorders. MANUFACTURERS' WARRANTIES DO NOT APPLY TO CHIP OUTPOST PRODUCTS. ALL SALES OF CHIP OUTPOST PRODUCTS ARE FINAL. If you purchase a Product designated as Chip Outpost Product, you understand that the Product is obtained by Digi-Key on a non-cancelable/non-returnable basis; therefore, your purchase of a Product designated as Chip Outpost Product is Non-Cancelable/Non-Returnable, except for the Chip Outpost Limited Warranty (see Section 16 below).
16. Chip Outpost Limited Warranty. This limited warranty applies only to products designated by Digi-KeyCorporation ("Digi-Key"), on any Web site owned or operated by Digi-Key or otherwise, as Chip Outpost products (the "Chip Outpost Products"). If you elect to purchase any Chip Outpost Product, Digi-Key Corporation ("Digi-Key") warrants solely to you, as the original purchaser of the Chip Outpost Product from Digi-Key, that the Chip Outpost Product will be free from defects in materials and workmanship for ninety (90) days from the original invoice date of such Chip Outpost Product (the "Warranty Period"). The limited warranty does not apply to any product (i) that has been subject to abuse, misuse (including without limitation static discharge), neglect, accident or modification, (ii) is otherwise not capable of being tested, (iii) has been installed in an unsuitable installation environment for the product, (iv) has been used for purposes other than for which it was designed, or (v) has been damaged by fire, flood, wind, lightening or similar causes.
a. Exercising this Limited Warranty. As your exclusive remedy for any breach of this limited warranty, Digi-Key shall promptly, at Digi-Key's option, (i) replace any Chip Outpost Product that does not conform to this limited warranty or (ii) refund to you the purchase price of the defective Chip Outpost Product; provided, however, that these remedies are conditioned on your returning the Chip Outpost Product during the Warranty Period, or within ten (10) days thereafter, along with a written description of the claimed defect(s), in accordance with Digi-Key's Return Policy.
b. Third Party Testing. Digi-Key reserves the right to have an independent third party examine and test any Chip Outpost Product that is allegedly defective to determine whether such product is, in fact, defective. The conclusion of such independent third party shall be conclusive, final and binding on you and Digi-Key


[EDIT: Surely if two pins are shorted then there is no potential difference between them and therefore no current will flow through the substrate?]

M

 

[DTR]

Plexus. You just don't know when to walk away do you. The best thing you can do is stop posting in these two threads and hope they die a quiet death. Obviously you are not going to come to an agreement.

A lot of very well respected members have told you that they feel for your situation but that you should chalk it up to a learning experience. The only thing you can accomplish at this point is to try to drag Jeff and Jay's names through the mud and obviously by the reaction of the community you are not getting any traction there. This community is mob rule if you can't tell which way the wind is blowing then all you are doing is making yourself look like whiny bitch. As Mohrenberg said we don't like to take this attitude with people but your are making us angry.

Items do not come with anything that is not listed with them and if it does not list a warranty that means there is none(IE AS-IS). And the fact that you want to argue that it worked when you got it and now it doesn't now only hurt's your argument. If it were DOA Jeff might have given you the benefit of the doubt. This hobby is full of risk and they need to protect their interest as well. They can't replace every item any customer screws up and comes back and says "It was not my fault". We have all had losses in this hobby but we chalk it up to the price of knowledge.


You come off sounding very full of yourself and of course you know everything. I know I don't know nearly as much as most members here and I make statements accordingly. We are all here to learn. But I guess you are hear to teach.

At this point all I can say is

:na:

 

[plexus]

Learn to use the multiquote and the edit buttons

I think you're misinterpretting the Terms and Conditions PLexus. The Chip Outpost products are bought on the understanding they are a non-cancellable and a non-returnable and manufacturer's warrantee do not apply at all.

Section 16 deals with the limited warranty offered by Digi-key alone, (as a favour to it's customers rather than a requirement I feel), and this is only subject to correct use and no abuse; protection from ESD and a variety of other clauses that include, '... installation in an unsuitable environment...' and, '... used for purposes other than for which is was designed...' and, if it can't be tested, the warranty is void.
[snip]

I just called digikey. parts are covered under a 30 day return warranty. parts that were installed and failed can be returned however the issue needs to be discussed with a customer rep. she said "usually we take them back and sometimes charge a restocking fee".

The Chip Outlet is a special separate catalogue of excess inventory parts and is a very new things. parts from their regular catalogue are covered by their regular warranty.

Plexus. You just don't know when to walk away do you. The best thing you can do is stop posting in these two threads and hope they die a quiet death. Obviously you are not going to come to an agreement with any of us.

[major snip]

There appears to be a discussion going on here DTR. you don't have to read this post. that what unsubscribe is for.

I have received numerous emails from people reading these threads thanking me for the information and sharing my experiences. So there is some value here especially for people trying to decide which kit to get. You have built many lasers, lost parts presumably, and don't need to know this stuff. So i am not sure why you are telling me to stop posting. I have posted my experiences, answered people's questions, explained ESD, shared aspects of the different kits, etc. This is all useful information. If its not something you are interested in then just unsubscribe.

Also, related to the customer service issues I had with jayrob and FP: i don't really care. i had some issues, brought them to their attention, and i posted my experiences. i am not at all demanding they do anything. they have made their points and so i have.

so as far as i can tell this thread is full of useful, valuable, interesting information that benefits a good many people. other parts of the discussion are a small part of the thread such as FP claiming i was lying and not proving this to be true. or discussions about opinions around warranties.

we've also learned that other parts suppliers such as digi-key, provide a warranty and if you were to buy something from them and it died they might replace it even if it user error was involved.

all in all, good stuff. if its making you angry, unsubscribe.

but you inadvertently made a point which i agree with: i have covered all the issues and so there is not really much else to say. so i will not post anything about these customer service issues, parts replacement, etc. however as i continue to work with these two kits i will provide data and learning but i will most likely do that in the first post (i want to measure heat dissipation, duty cycles etc). if anyone asks me a question in the thread i will answer it, however. but you are right, there is no more to be said around the parts issues.

 

[Morgan]

I understand the difference between the two catalogues but you referred specifically to a laser diode and stated that it does appear as a Chip Outpost product and that part of their warranty policy specifically points out they are non-returnable parts. Despite what Digi-Key said to you on the phone. As I said, the likelyhood is that you will receive new parts as the proportional cost of the item is infinitesimally small compared to turnover, (not nearly the same situation with any seller here), and they can bend their warranty policy as much as they like and recoup some of their costs with the often thinly veiled, 'restocking charge', but the fact remains; you are not automatically entitled to return a Chip Outpost product such as that laser diode you linked to and achieve satisfaction.

For your issue, you did speak to a customer rep., (flaminpyro via PM), regards your failed diode and it was determined not to replace the item free of charge, just the same way Digi-Key could react in similar circumstances. Particularly in the case of not using the product, '...for purposes for which it was designed.'

And you just double posted again...

M

 

[DTR]

but you inadvertently made a point which i agree with: i have covered all the issues and so there is not really much else to say. so i will not post anything about these customer service issues, parts replacement, etc. however as i continue to work with these two kits i will provide data and learning but i will most likely do that in the first post (i want to measure heat dissipation, duty cycles etc). if anyone asks me a question in the thread i will answer it, however. but you are right, there is no more to be said around the parts issues.

What you call inadvertent I call my main point. If you were to post information along these lines I know I would welcome it and I think everyone else would as well. Like I said we are all here to learn.

 

[DrSid]

And how, exactly, is a shorted diode susceptible to static discharge? Are those charges going to jump through the front glass window?

Just an addition. With 445 diodes all 3 wires must be shorted (and it comes with the case pin shortened, so some people might actually miss it). Neither positive or negative pin is connected to the case, and without shorting all 3, ESD can cause spark between case and insides.

 

[jsyco]

Flaminpyro I owe you an apology for stating I agreed with plexus that you should share the cost with him. In his post #39 where he first addresses these issues rather than stating that the diode worked for up to an hour, the way he worded it makes it sound like the diode had a very short life.

I'm glad you decided to post your version concerning PM's, so please accept my humblest apologies, :bowdown:I was wrong and should not have made a judgment based on one side of the story.

plexus I agree with you that this thread is full of useful information except for one thing, you have tried to besmirch the reputations of two well liked and respected members. You brush this of by stating, (quote from post #111) "Also, related to the customer service issues I had with jayrob and FP: i don't really care. i had some issues, brought them to their attention, and i posted my experiences. i am not at all demanding they do anything. they have made their points and so i have." That would be all well and good IF you had not tried to miss-lead by the way you worded your complaint and possibly even lied about the circumstances surrounding both failures. Keep in mind that accusations can cause as much damage as actual guilt. Brings to mind the teacher who committed suicide after being accused of child molestation and after his death the child admitted it was a lie to get back at the teacher for a perceived wrong.

I said once before and I will state it again, you should apologize to jayrob and now to Flaminpyro and let this thread die out lest it come back to haunt you in your future dealings with this forum and its members.:tsk:

 

[plexus]

Just an addition. With 445 diodes all 3 wires must be shorted (and it comes with the case pin shortened, so some people might actually miss it). Neither positive or negative pin is connected to the case, and without shorting all 3, ESD can cause spark between case and insides.

hey drsid. that *might* help with ESD but it wont prevent an ESD failure as the current could still travel through the diode substrate. the only way to prevent ESD damage is to ground the diode case as well. once it is in-circuit it will less suseptible to ESD as there are a lot of other paths for the current to take. a Lasorb is a good way to protect the diode in or out of circuit. granted ESD failure or damage is not common but if you do want to protect the diode from it the Lasorb is a good way to do it. i spoke at length with a friend of mine who has made many lasers using laser diodes and he has damaged some from ESD. he now ensures he and his tools are grounded and he as opted to use Lasorbs (that is where i found out about them). LDs are pretty electrostatic sensitive devices but luckily the failures are few and far between.

ps. I do not work for and am in no way affiliated with Lasorb or its manufacturers. I am just a happy customer.

 

[DrSid]

I meant you must connect all 3 pins (ie both electrodes and case) together, to prevent any ESD path inside the diode. Sorry if it is not clear.
Which makes me think again about the lasorb ! If you only connect lasorb to both active electrodes, the case will be still free ! While spark between electrodes will be prevented, spark between any electrode and case will be still possible.
During winter in my office, I get often so charged up, I shoot sparks inch long when I try to grab the door handle. It will bring me heart attack one day. It does not really hurt, but you literally get shocked. Interesting thing is, if you hold some metal object (like key, or spoon), and let the spark hit the object, not skin, there is no shock. It seem the current gets dissolved into large area and it does not hit individual nerves.

 

[plexus]

I meant you must connect all 3 pins (ie both electrodes and case) together, to prevent any ESD path inside the diode. Sorry if it is not clear.
Which makes me think again about the lasorb ! If you only connect lasorb to both active electrodes, the case will be still free ! While spark between electrodes will be prevented, spark between any electrode and case will be still possible.
.

check out the lasorb site for more info on how ESD affects laser diodes LASORB - ESD absorber for laser diodes

 

[Flaminpyro]

@ plexus well it would seem you will only believe what you want and throw out all the rest so I will not bother to answer any more here, I'm very busy taking care of members.
I never said you were a lier, it would seem you came up with that !
all I said was you left out some info the fact that the diode ran for an hour.
I tire of your spewing, you certnly seem to know nothing about shorting the P and the N material together I will leave you to waller in your vast knowledge of electronics.

Peace to all...

 

[DrSid]

check out the lasorb site for more info on how ESD affects laser diodes LASORB - ESD absorber for laser diodes

That is interesting .. I was under impression spark itself can damage parts of diode, even when the current does not go through P-N transition. Well .. spark strong enough for sure can, only question is if common ESDs are that strong.

 

[plexus]

added host temperature vs power output over time data and graphs in first post