History of the Hobbyist LPM

[lasersbee]

Okay... let me explain why some of the changes were not made or were made a certain way.

• The LaserBee II price was pulled from ebay, so it is accurate. I will, however, note the website price.
• (If you are comparing prices perhaps it would make some logical sense to note that some prices include Shipping and some do not. That would make your 1st Post much more accurate. It's funny how you state the highest prices of our LPMproducts that include Shipping costs and the lowest prices of others without Shipping costs)
• I know the nospin LPM had no datalogging. That is why it was not mentioned.
• (You are comparing Apples to Oranges... Data Logging is a Feature on an LPM)
• Zeroing is not listed as a feature for the 5W LaserBee because it is not novel. Plus, at least one other LPM also offered it long before, and zeroing is not a market-changing feature.
• (Spin it any way you want.... The 5W LaserBee is the only Hobbyists LPM that uses the OPHIR heads that has an actual Zeroing Control... And that IS a feature the other LPM's that use an OPHIR head don't and NEVER had)
• The Alpha price was from memory. I know they sold for that used (when there were none on the market), but that's not the right figure to use here. I've only listed new prices. If you can find reference to Radiant selling them for $125 it will be updated.
• (For a scientific and logical guy like you I would have thought you would post info by research and not memory...:undecided: It took 10 seconds to find this... http://laserpointerforums.com/f41/i...nt-alpha-power-meter-56689-16.html#post967874 The price was quoted on the website until it was taken down.)
• (BTW the Alpha Predecessor was this:- http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/diy-thermal-lpm-under-50-a-51129.html#post704325http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/diy-thermal-lpm-under-50-a-51129.html#post704325 The Alpha used that exact same circuit.)
  
• Adding zeroing to the LaserBee A and LaserBee AX has not had any impact on the hobbyist LPM market. Thus, it is not a novel feature for the purposes of history and was not included.
• (From all the complaints that were posted on the Alpha Thread about how it was impossible to Zero the Alpha after a few tests and that the Alpha team did not respond with a fix and stopped selling the Alpha. We waited for 6 months for a fix. When it did not come and the Alphas were no longer sold we decided to improve the Analog circuit with a more refined split supply circuit that allowed True Zeroing of the LaserBee A. That feature was noted and touted on our LPF Sales Thread.)
• The LaserBee I, I-X, and II are currently sold for hugely different prices, and are all electrically nearly identical. Based on that, logically, the rest of the families of LaserBee products likely work like that. I'll pursue getting an image of the inside of a LaserBee 3.7W USB so that I can update the description if necessary. EDIT: I see that it is different... welcome to the world of FTDI, Jerry...
• (I find it amusing that you can't seem to trust the manufacturer of the LaserBee products when he lets you know that the LaserBee 3.7W USM does not use the same electronics as the LaserBee 2.5W USB)
• I don't have access to any of your research regarding slow sensors. I've never noticed an appreciable difference, so I did not note one in this thread. I'll try to track down a Radiant Alpha owner and a LaserBee 2.5W USB owner for comparison purposes.
• (refer to the last response just above... I'm a bit confused...I thought this was an unbiased History Of the Hobbyist LPMs or are those only your personal thoughts...ideas and biases...:thinking

I didn't want to quibble, but since you asked again, does that answer your questions?

(Stating actual facts is not Quibbling unless there is some other
agenda to not be fully truthful in stating all facts...:undecided

And thank you, I suppose I'll add that photo. Since it was such a short-lived and fairly non-influential product, I wasn't going to worry about it. Since I have one now, that sort of makes the decision.

Trevor

I've responded to some of the important ambiguous stuff above in ().:beer:

BTW... your chart is still incorrect... :na:

EDIT: wow am i the only one that thinks that the orginal kenometer and kenometer lite were kinda uggly for an commercially targeted lpm?

greetings,,

No you are definitely not the only one... I thought I was the only one...



Jerry

 

[DJNY]

EDIT: Also, DJNY, I updated the price to ~$300... though I'm still working on figure out the exact original price. Thanks!

Trevor

$280 was the original sale price

 

[madmacmo]

I nominate for entry Justinjja's LPM "No longer a Prototype"

08-22-2012, 11:07 PM

I present my new and improved LPM design: (Now a Release Candidate)


LPM is powered by a 3.3v LDO, So no crappy 9v batteries, and no boosting regulator in this LPM

The ADC and LDO are High quality, High accuracy, and Low noise.
made by Texas Instruments


The LPM is also very efficient, Consuming just 60mA @ 4.2V (50% less power than a laserbee)

Battery will be a 1200mAh Cell phone battery
Should be good for well over 10hr's per charge
A charging IC is also on board, The lpm is charged while datalogging

~5W max power
150 W/cm^2 Damage threshold

The Microcontroller at the heart of this LPM is the Atmega328,
USB is handled by an FTDI chip,
so if you feel like modding this lpm, it will be very easy

And now the pics

Edit 06-24-2013, 11:50 AM

madmacmo: Thanks for posting that! That was just a DIY build, right? I couldn't find any record of them being sold when I wrote the OP.

Trevor

No, neither could I find where Justinjja ever made it into production or had any sales. This is his last post in that thread -
09-11-2012, 02:56 AM Post #33 http://laserpointerforums.com/f70/justinjja-s-lpm-no-longer-prototype-d-76931-2.html#post1111308

The following image of what appears to be the last board revision (one can only hope that he may resurrect this project at some point as it was novel in design at that time)

Also note the links to his first prototype below (I bought it from him and I still have it in excellent working condition)

http://laserpointerforums.com/f70/custom-digital-ophir-lpm-76592.html#post1102927

 

[Trevor]

• The most easily accessible historical pricing information is on ebay (where shipping is listed as FREE), so that's what I used. I've corrected the Alpha pricing; any other historical pricing info you can turn up is appreciated.
• You've misunderstood my use of the "Novel Features" field. It's to denote what LPM did first that was novel that changed LPM's that came after it. Note that the Kenometer Lite has "n/a" for that field - it has features, but none of them were novel. I'm using the patent definition of novelty.
• I'm sorry, zeroing is not new or novel, according to the definition I just outlined above. That seems more about other products lacking basic functionality, rather than about yours having advanced functionality. Except with regards to the Alpha, I haven't found any instances of a LaserBee being praised for having an electronics zeroing control, anyone complaining about an electronic zeroing control, or anyone complaining about some other power meter's software zeroing control.
• Thanks for the price update - I hadn't dug to the 16th page. Updated the OP. I am aware of the $50 DIY LPM, but if you'll notice the rest of the thread, the "predecessors" field is for LPM products sold here that a given LPM borrowed aspects of.
• I updated the Alpha description to reflect that. That is a feature that is not novel (it is, again, basic functionality) that the Alpha lacked that LaserBees have. Thus, the Alpha gets a nod for not having it.
• No, I can't trust you to truthfully tell me attributes of your LPM's. When the LaserBee II released, I recall a LaserBee I owner asked if it was possible to upgrade a LaserBee I to a LaserBee II. You told him it was not possible. Now that I've spent a lot of time working with the LaserBee I and LaserBee II, I know that to be false. You designed the LaserBee I so that it could have a different ADC, opamp IC, and opamp resistor network dropped in. Suddenly, a LaserBee I is a LaserBee II. So it is possible to upgrade. That is part of the reason why I developed Ellipsis and did so much work with LaserBees - so that I could dispel myths put forth and perpetuated by the manufacturer himself. So no, I don't trust you at all to relay information about your products. Not one bit.
• With regards to the sensors, in all of my research for this thread I never noticed a difference in response times of the graphs I came across. Again, if you'd like to share the results of your research you're welcome to.

I've no aversion to fact here, and I've tried to present everything without spin. I've tried to make the updates you've suggested while preserving the integrity of the thread.

DJNY: Awesome, thanks, I'll update the OP!
madmacmo: Thanks for posting that! That was just a DIY build, right? I couldn't find any record of them being sold when I wrote the OP.

Trevor

 

[lasersbee]

• No, I can't trust you to truthfully tell me attributes of your LPM's. When the LaserBee II released, I recall a LaserBee I owner asked if it was possible to upgrade a LaserBee I to a LaserBee II. You told him it was not possible. Now that I've spent a lot of time working with the LaserBee I and LaserBee II, I know that to be false. You designed the LaserBee I so that it could have a different ADC, opamp IC, and opamp resistor network dropped in. Suddenly, a LaserBee I is a LaserBee II. So it is possible to upgrade. That is, in fact, why I developed Ellipsis and did so much work with LaserBees - so that I could dispel myths put forth and perpetuated by the manufacturer himself. So no, I don't trust you at all to relay information about your products. Not one bit.

Trevor

Your truer colors are showing....

Once again you spew biased non facts... Shame on you.
I do like the way you come up with your own biased ideas of
what goes on in our shop.

Had you had access to our files or even asked you would
have been aware that the LaserBee I was originally designed
as a dual use PCB. After testing the 2nd non LasrBee I use
it very soon became evident that it could not be used fro the
LaserBee II due to design changes and higher accuracy with
less noise.
The LaserBee I PCB was NEVER USED or SOLD as a LaserBee II.

Hence a new PCB was designed for the LaserBee II. We are now
on our 3rd redesign of the LaserBee II PCB making it even more
robust against noise and is even more accurate.

But since we are not an Open Source company there is no way
We can share our file with you.

Like I said you can Spin the facts anyway you want.. Your trust
of me and my company and products is obvious and is mutual...


EDIT

Since this is a thread on the History of Hobbyists LPMs...
and you mentioned some that were not commercially available
perhaps you should also include the Nimrod LPMs that were
bought and built by a lot of LPF Members including myself...

http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/diy-laser-power-meter-26831.html

The History of Hobbyists LPMs should perhaps also include some
of the novel DIY LPM designs from the past since the past is History.....
Here's a list for you...
http://laserpointerforums.com/f70/diy-laser-power-meter-projects-71234.html#post1026292


Jerry

 

[Trevor]

Your truer colors are showing....

Once again you spew biased non facts... Shame on you.
I do like the way you come up with your own biased ideas of
what goes on in our shop.

Had you had access to our files or even asked you would
have been aware that the LaserBee I was originally designed
as a dual use PCB. After testing the 2nd non LasrBee I use
it very soon became evident that it could not be used fro the
LaserBee II due to design changes and higher accuracy with
less noise.
The LaserBee I PCB was NEVER USED or SOLD as a LaserBee II.

Hence a new PCB was designed for the LaserBee II. We are now
on our 3rd redesign of the LaserBee II PCB making it even more
robust against noise and is even more accurate.

But since we are not an Open Source company there is no way
We can share our file with you.

Like I said you can Spin the facts anyway you want.. Your trust
of me and my company and products is obvious and is mutual...


EDIT

Since this is a thread on the History of Hobbyists LPMs...
and you mentioned some that were not commercially available
perhaps you should also include the Nimrod LPMs that were
bought and built by a lot of LPF Members including myself...

http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/diy-laser-power-meter-26831.html

The History of Hobbyists LPMs should perhaps also include some
of the novel DIY LPM designs from the past since the past is History.....
Here's a list for you...
http://laserpointerforums.com/f70/diy-laser-power-meter-projects-71234.html#post1026292


Jerry

Since you didn't mention anything but that one bullet point, I'll assume you're happy with my answers and with the OP. Great! :yh:

With regards to measurement, the only thing that happened with the LaserBee II was a few rerouted traces. The opamps you used even have the same pinout! It is possible to increase the range of a LaserBee I by changing up the opamp/resistors/ADC configuration and changing the firmware - you and I both know that. The LaserBee II having components that exactly match the pinout of components of a LaserBee I is strong evidence to support that. I've got both the boards in front of me, and it's easy to see that just swapping out the components and adding new firmware would get you a board that, disregarding the unsubstantiated claim about noise (we must be scientific), functions exactly the same as a LaserBee II. If you'd like, I can post the datasheets, pinouts, and high resolution photos to prove it.

"My truer colors are showing?" Sure, each of us has an axe to grind with the other - that's a history lesson all in itself. That aside, the OP is as unbiased as possible. It gives you well-deserved praise, criticism where justified, and affords the same respect to every builder listed here. I made sure to include issues with Kenom's and MarioMaster's designs as well as the advancements they brought. Despite friendship with both parties at the time their respective products were on the market, I heavily criticized both of them. They earned it. The OP shouldn't read like a Kenometer sale thread, or an Alpha sale thread, or a LaserBee sale thread. It should read like a history lesson, and I worked hard to make sure it did.

With regards to DIY projects, cool, certainly post them here - as I said in an earlier post. But the purpose of the OP is to outline the influential LPM's that people have been able to purchase over the years.

Trevor

 

[ARG]

Just like in history the guilty party only replies to what they know they can win.
Never answers the questions when they are wrong.

History repeats itself, even of LPF

 

[ped]

Saw this quote in a newspaper..

"You've sidestepped so many questions, you must walk like a crab"

 

[lasersbee]

Since you didn't mention anything but that one bullet point, I'll assume you're happy with my answers and with the OP. Great! :yh:

Trevor

Trevor... You assume too much.... Just because I don't repeat
myself over and over again to get my point across does not
automatically mean that I agree or am "happy" as you put it.

For this time only and to satisfy the useless recent Troll Posts...
( No you guys are not really any good at it...:crackup

• 
  The most easily accessible historical pricing information is on ebay (where shipping is listed as FREE), so that's what I used. I've corrected the Alpha pricing; any other historical pricing info you can turn up is appreciated.

(Any reasonably intelligent person would be aware of the fact that any
eBay listing that offers FREE SHIPPING has the Insertion fees... FVF... PP
fees and Shipping costs Included in the Item Price.
Any reasonably intelligent person would know that there is not one
courier on the that will ship a product FREE of charge... that's just plain
idiotic to think so.)

• 
  You've misunderstood my use of the "Novel Features" field. It's to denote what LPM did first that was novel that changed LPM's that came after it. Note that the Kenometer Lite has "n/a" for that field - it has features, but none of them were novel. I'm using the patent definition of novelty.

( Its hard to understand a word that was not
there originally. I see you only added the word "Novel" just before you
posted the above by Editing the original single word "Feature" to your
1st post to try to make your points have some semblance of validity.
Very sneaky but I caught it...:tsk

• 
  I'm sorry, zeroing is not new or novel, according to the definition I just outlined above. That seems more about other products lacking basic functionality, rather than about yours having advanced functionality. Except with regards to the Alpha, I haven't found any instances of a LaserBee being praised for having an electronics zeroing control, anyone complaining about an electronic zeroing control, or anyone complaining about some other power meter's software zeroing control.

(Your Sneaky Edited after the fact use of the word "Novel" is explained above)

• 
  Thanks for the price update - I hadn't dug to the 16th page. Updated the OP. I am aware of the $50 DIY LPM, but if you'll notice the rest of the thread, the "predecessors" field is for LPM products sold here that a given LPM borrowed aspects of.

(Well I guess we have different views on what research means.:beer

• 
  I updated the Alpha description to reflect that. That is a feature that is not novel (it is, again, basic functionality) that the Alpha lacked that LaserBees have. Thus, the Alpha gets a nod for not having it.

(Again your use of the word "Novel" is explained above)

• 
  With regards to the sensors, in all of my research for this thread I never noticed a difference in response times of the graphs I came across. Again, if you'd like to share the results of your research you're welcome to.

(The only graphs you have seen are the LaserBee 2.5W USB and the
LaserBee 3.7W USB graphs that use our faster 15mm X 15mm Sensors.
I never seen an Alpha Graph on LPF since they were sold without Data
Logging. So what Graphs are you actually comparing...:thinking

Trevor

I've stated what need to be said about the info missing or censored
by you on the fist post. I'm not going to :horse:.

You can do what you want with your "LPM History" looking through your
slightly tinted glasses....:yh:


Jerry

 

[Trevor]

The original intent of that field was not to make an exhaustive list of every feature of every LPM. That's what the descriptions are for - and even then, it's rather pointless to list everything. Rather, it was to have a place to say what LPM did what first or what innovation a particular product brought to the market. I added the field to be able to tell how an LPM innovated at a glance - because most did at least one or two things new.

I didn't edit in "Novel" just before my last post... before I posted this thread, I remember adding "Novel" to that field name so it would be clear what is being said. The intent of that field never changed, I just renamed it to be slightly more descriptive of its actual content. In fact, I just looked at the document I drafted this post in, and it includes that word... its last edit was June 22. "Novel" has been in my post this whole time. I guess you just missed it when you read the OP. The entire revision history is available to mods... get one to check for you, I'm not lying. My last edit to the OP? It was to add in information that you and DJNY had contributed. Not some sinister plot for me to be correct... just to add information to the OP. Don't accuse me of a "sneaky" edit. You just didn't see it.

EDIT: ped - Would you mind checking and backing that up?
EDIT 2: I checked with Things... it's been there since I posted the thread.

I really don't know what you want from me. I skewered the Kenometer, and the Alpha, and the ARGMeter. The LaserBees are, in the OP, looked upon more favorably than any of those.

Know this:

This post was never a troll post... it's an unbiased compendium of information. Even after you rolled in, this thread was humming along nicely, with good discussion and useful information added to the OP. But as soon as I didn't add something you wanted added, you got mad and accused me of bias and 'spinning' the facts. If Kenom or MarioMaster were still building LPM's, I'm sure they'd be in here, mad that I didn't include such-and-such about their LPM. If every detail that you and anyone else wanted added were added, it would just read like a sale thread.

No history book reflects 100% well on its participants... that's the nature of a history book.

Trevor

 

[lasersbee]

Know this:

This post was never a troll post...

Trevor

Know this....

Contrary to popular belief you are not the center of the universe...

I was referring to post #25 and #26...


Jerry

 

[ARG]

I thought of another LPM you should include, the LPM-1 by andover

 

[Tw15t3r]

Very nice "article" if it may be called as such. Are you including a section of DIY meters? Or would that be out of the scope?

 

[Trevor]

I thought of another LPM you should include, the LPM-1 by andover

I actually did make the decision to omit that one - on account of it not being produced by a hobbyist. Precious little information is available about it, but I can see what I can dig up!

Very nice "article" if it may be called as such. Are you including a section of DIY meters? Or would that be out of the scope?

We'd love to see pics and read specs! The main purpose of the OP was to detail the history and genesis of all the LPM's everyone always hears about - but DIY'ing is a huge part of LPF's culture!

By all means, share!

As much fun as it is to watch you guys enthusiastically go at it with such obvious wanton abandonment of any semblance of civility, won’t you all just suck it up, get off the Jerry bashing (try as you will, and trust me, you ain't going to be able to hurt his feelings - I promise), so please for the benefit of the forum won’t we get back to the intended topic of the History of LPF’s LPM development and I mean that as in Laser Power Meters and for Christ’s sake get off the juvenile shtick of Libelous Patronizing Malicious Slander

I don't care who hates who's guts here but for the sake of all current and future LPFers let’s center fruitful discussion on the OP’s original intent to catalog the positive and really unique novel genius behind the advances made by those laser hobbyists within our midst who created something that should be really damn fascinating to each of us with the development of LPM technology designed for us by us and outside of any corporate money grubbing incentives, that being the creation of laser power measuring instruments that have been immediately useful and affordable and were birthed from the truest sense of inspiration and resourcefulness. It is this inspiration and resourcefulness that I believe to be the hallmark of what makes LPF head and shoulders above all other laser forums. There are plenty other threads within which you all can take this petty fighting, where rather at this time within this thread let’s take the opportunity to do something good here by making record of these beneficial and noteworthy LPM accomplishments and recognizing those by whose labors have advanced LPM technology and our hobby as a whole.

Rant over - just my measly two cents and nothing more :can:

As long as I can remember, drama has always surrounded people who develop LPM's. It's never really circulated around people who build lasers, or sell drivers, or who machine heatsinks. Dunno what it is... but it's been that way since late 2008 or early 2009. I can't really speak to the exact origin, since I only really joined the hobbyist LPM "industry" in early 2010.

I suppose I'll just keep writing code and enjoying what I do.

Trevor

 

[ped]

It's rarely the coders that start the so called drama.
Its always members who have a vested interest in the hobbyist LPM market, and simply don't want their toes stepped on, afterall, ignorance is bliss.

The coders do it for the hobby, the sellers do it for the paycheck.
Why some of these sellers cant embrace these coders , who are only looking to improve on an already good product, is beyond me.

But it's their choice and we respect that. I just wish they would do it via PM so as to not fill up threads with to and fro volleys. Imagine if one of the coders went to one of the LPM sellers sales thread and started questioning this and that, our moderators reported post inbox would be full within minuets.

Just my oppinion.

Sorry for the derailment Trevor.

Please...carry on .

 

[Bionic-Badger]

It's rarely the coders that start the so called drama.

I don't believe that for a second. If coders weren't prone to drama those software patents wouldn't be such an issue, nor would software IP be such an issue.

Its always members who have a vested interest in the hobbyist LPM market, and simply don't want their toes stepped on, afterall, ignorance is bliss

This, however, is the core issue. People want to protect their markets, be it hardware or software.