268mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! (With FlexDrive!) - Awesome!

Re: Key Chain Blu-ray... With FlexDrive!

IgorT said:

Kage: Thanks for doing the test! Nice work! Doesn't look good for the batteries tho.

Is your 10440 from AW? Cos DX are rated for 600mAh, which is impossible, but your plot says "capacity 320mAh"...


Looking forward to the constant power discharge curve! I already feel bad for the battery..

Click to expand...

This battery was from DX, but I have tested these before and already knew the capacity was really just over 300mAH, and was real happy to see that the specs for the AW batteries match my tests! Actually most of DX's Li-Ions have ridiculous ratings stamped on them except for the 18650's. Hopefully the Power test will be done tonight - it takes longer to plot the graph than do the test :
What really is a concern, is the cell's internal resistance, which increases dramatically during discharge. It also increases considerably as the battery ages, which means the lifespan in a severe application like this may be a lot less than the expected 5 years typical usage. :-?

Re: Key Chain Blu-ray... With FlexDrive!

IgorT said:

So i'm guessing you simply haven't discharged it as far as the battery in the red yet. Or the full battery current measurement was not correct (maybe the battery wasn't completelly full, or is weaker than the other).

Try it with the same battery and you should see the same increase. Not in mA but in percent. If the blu takes more power, the increase in mA will even be higher

Click to expand...

You are right Igor, it was a different battery... I did not test with the same battery yet, but I believe you.

I have noticed also, that the battery current draw will differ a little depending on what battery is used...

I set my driver with a 10280, using a rkcstr blu-ray test load. And it puts out what I anticipated it would at 183mA's - (215mW's) This was anticipated because of my first test with this 'freak' 6X diode. It was with a 3.0 volt CR123 @ 192mA's and it gave 220mW's on just a quick glance...

But when I check battery current draw on a 10280 while watching the power meter at the same time, I get a reading of 350mA's, and putting out 215mW's.

Now if I use a CR123 battery (via a spacer to make contact with the switch spring), It draws 415mA's and puts out just a little more... like around 220mW's.

So, I get the feeling that the driver setting may be off by just a few mA's, depending on which battery supply is used. But since I set the driver with the 10280, I am sure I am at 183mA's, or very close to it. (which my power reading verifies as well)...
Jay

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

Here's a hot tip if your going to build one of these...

Before you complete the build, make sure you check to see if you are getting a voltage reading between the negative end of the battery, and the host! If you are getting any kind of a voltage reading here, then you have not disabled the stock switch circuit good enough...

There is a connection from one edge of the board (which is ground), that goes to the center. This has something to do with the way the little circuit would let the switch be a 'constant on' switch. I found that I needed to 'scrape' through this connection to by-pass the circuit completely...

Otherwise, I got a voltage reading from the negative end of the battery, to the host. Strange... On one of my builds, I actually got a small current draw here, and it would slowly drain the battery. After I did the above 'fix', the problem was solved.
Jay

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

Oh, if there are original components you are not using, it's always better to remove them all.

I completelly depopulate all driver PCBs, cos otherwise i'd have to study them carefully to figure out what they do and what not. I wouldn't let anything in there i don't understand completelly, or is not needed....

But i would like to see if that part is possible to use for constant-ON for the laser...


Otherwise, i found a way to fit 330mAh into my host without modification!  

Those prismatic Li-Ions AW sent me (for the tiny protection PCB).. I can stack three of them, solder them in parallel, leave one protection PCB on and put them in permanently.. They go under the button, but so would the 10280 (even with the modification). But since these are flat on top, i can MAKE a simple button assembly on them!

If i trim the part with the PCB, they go from 30mm to 24mm in length! And the sides can be trimmed a little, but it's not needed. Since the tube is 12mm ID, and the prismatic cells only 3mm high and 10mm wide, i can get three of them in! AW said they are 100-110mAh, and soldered in parallel they will have 300-330mAh, a single PCB will protect all of them, and the current draw of the driver will be shared by all three.

All i need is to make a dedicated low current charger for them. But that's easy if they are protected!

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

You sure got my attention with the batteries Igor!

Please show pictures and details when you get it all set up...
Jay

Re: Key Chain Blu-ray... With FlexDrive!

jayrob said:

The foil warning labels I got from andy_con...

And he told me that he is not going to make any more, so what I have left of those, I am going to keep.

But Igor was asking about the little stickers that I make for the power measurement and to say what diode is being used. Those are white print on black tape. Very nice labels from a P-Touch printer.

The labels are # TZ-335. My printer is model # PT-1010...
Jay

Click to expand...

Costco has this label maker, or at least one VERY similar (it's not well documented on the site) for $10 members/$10.50 non-members and free shipping. http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc..._Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

That's a steal of a deal!

My other P-Touch printer didn't take the TZ style tape that can print white letters on black tape (TZ-335), so that's why I bought the PT-1010...
Jay

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

IgorT said:

Oh, if there are original components you are not using, it's always better to remove them all.

I completelly depopulate all driver PCBs, cos otherwise i'd have to study them carefully to figure out what they do and what not. I wouldn't let anything in there i don't understand completelly, or is not needed....

But i would like to see if that part is possible to use for constant-ON for the laser...


Otherwise, i found a way to fit 330mAh into my host without modification!

Those prismatic Li-Ions AW sent me (for the tiny protection PCB).. I can stack three of them, solder them in parallel, leave one protection PCB on and put them in permanently.. They go under the button, but so would the 10280 (even with the modification). But since these are flat on top, i can MAKE a simple button assembly on them!

If i trim the part with the PCB, they go from 30mm to 24mm in length! And the sides can be trimmed a little, but it's not needed. Since the tube is 12mm ID, and the prismatic cells only 3mm high and 10mm wide, i can get three of them in! AW said they are 100-110mAh, and soldered in parallel they will have 300-330mAh, a single PCB will protect all of them, and the current draw of the driver will be shared by all three.

All i need is to make a dedicated low current charger for them. But that's easy if they are protected!

Click to expand...

Igor, for whatever it's worth, I think you are on the right track with the prismatic cells. As the batteries get smaller, the internal resistance increases proportionally. For a 10440 it is around .35 ohms at full charge and about 3 times that when the cell poops out under a heavy load. A 10280 would be almost twice as much. :

In the following graph, the average rate of discharge is pretty close to 1C with the 320mAH battery. This was from an actual boost driver running a 6X at 200mW output from an Aixiz acrylic lens. The driver efficiency ~85% at 4V. Power increases a bit as the battery depletes because the driver efficiency drops at lower input V.

Re: Key Chain Blu-ray... With FlexDrive!

jayrob said:

But when I check battery current draw on a 10280 while watching the power meter at the same time, I get a reading of 350mA's, and putting out 215mW's.

Now if I use a CR123 battery (via a spacer to make contact with the switch spring), It draws 415mA's and puts out just a little more... like around 220mW's.

So, I get the feeling that the driver setting may be off by just a few mA's, depending on which battery supply is used. But since I set the driver with the 10280, I am sure I am at 183mA's, or very close to it. (which my power reading verifies as well)...
Jay

Click to expand...

Yeah, this is what i was talking about, when i mentioned the current changes on the Flexy...

Now since you measured 415mA from the CR123, but 350mA from the 10280, i can automatically assume, that the CR123 was a Lithium Primary and not a Li-Ion.. Correct?

The FlexDrive puts out a bit more current on lower input voltages.. This is most noticable if you switch between a Li-Ion and a Primary Lithium. I noticed this in my Dorcy's the most - the power on a used CR123 primary would be up to 10mW higher, than on a full Li-Ion.

This surprised me quite a bit. Testing showed there is a 6mA current difference. It should be a little less on v3 tho. Did you use the v3 Flex?

Anyway, if you set it to 183mA from a full Li-Ion, the current from a lithium primary could be up to 187-189mA.. But since you can't really get a primary in there, this difference, while present between full and empty Li-Ion, will be smaller. But you will notice a power difference if you underdischarge the cell. The current seems to jump the most, just as the battery voltage nears 2.4V. I have not seen more than 6mA tho..

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

You are correct Igor! (The Scientist)

Great information as always...

Very interesting that with a FlexDrive, a 3.0 volt primary will put out a little more than a 3.6 volt battery. :-?
Jay

P.S. Using version 3 FlexDrives.

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

You already did a constant power discharge graph, Kage? Wow, that's great! Thanks!

Wait! You got almost 40 minutes runtime out of an 10440 with a 6x at 200mW?!? Wow!


About the prismatic cells. Yeah, i think they are the best way to go. I am surprised they have such a high capacity compared to round cells, but AW's capacity estimates are usually honest. That would mean 300-330mAh would bring me to the level of the actual capacity of an 10440! In a host that could not fit a 10280 without heavy modifying (tailcap drill-out + complicated button assembly with a lever).

Instead of creating a complicated button on a lever to get the 180mAh 10280 room under the switch hole, i can much more easily create a simple switch using two pieces of metal, and i can simply put this switch onto the flat surface of the top battery in the stack. The rubber button outside just presses them togeter. I would of course gold plate the two pices of metal, to get the reliability of a proper button..

The battery stack will have to be recharged in the host, but that's not really a problem. The benefits are much greater.. I'd get the runtime of a 10440 laser in keychain form, but protected!


There is only one component missing. Time.. :'(

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

jayrob said:

Very interesting that with a FlexDrive, a 3.0 volt primary will put out a little more than a 3.6 volt battery. :-?

Click to expand...

Yeh, it looks like the op-amp that feeds the boost IC the amplified current reading, gets a little confused by the changes in the ripple.

The ripple changes with both the input and the output voltages.

The result is:
- lower input voltage = higher current
- higher output voltage = higher current

Now the latter means that if you set the current to 153mA on a dummy load with the Vf of a red diode (like Rkcstr's dummy in red range), and then use the driver on a blu diode, the current could be 159mA! (actual example). Normally this shouldn't happen with a constant current driver. The current should remain the same on a blu, even if you set it on a "red dummy".... But in a laser the output voltage doesn't change (much).. The Vf of the diode changes a little with heat (the Vf drops), but not enough to cause a noticable difference. The output voltage can be assumed to be almost constant.

What does change in a laser is the battery voltage, and with a FlexDrive that means a small current change. The lower the battery drops, the higher the current will be. Luckily these changes are not that big and don't go above certain limits, or it could be disastrous. With v2's it helped if you added some caps. I got them to 2mA drift or less on some, by adding a 10uF input capacitor (soldered stacked on the original input cap). Haven't tested the v3's yet.

But the v4's will be a completelly different driver, and hopefully this issue will be gone completelly too.

That's also the reason i only use the FlexDrive for reds. There 4-6mA represents a lower percentage of the total current...

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

jayrob said:

That's a steal of a deal!

My other P-Touch printer didn't take the TZ style tape that can print white letters on black tape (TZ-335), so that's why I bought the PT-1010...
Jay

Click to expand...

Jay, what width are your labels?

That page offers 1/2, 1/4 and 3/18... But the 1/4 is not available in white on black, only the other two....


Also, how long does a 26inch roll last you?

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

I use the 1/2" tape. I print in 'double line' format by using the 'enter' key between lines...

Then I just cut the labels to size. You will see a couple of samples with the package that I sent you a couple of days ago.

One cartridge lasts a very long time. The rolls are 26 feet long!
Jay

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

26 FEET!! I thought that was INCHES. ;D

Oh my! Then it really would last for ages!


3/18 is too narrow, 1/4 is just right but not available. Cutting the 1/2 in half sounds like the way to go..

Re: 215mW 6X Key Chain Blu-ray! - With FlexDrive!

Yes! I like 1/2" tape, because there are other things to label besides lasers!

The tape is very high quality. Made for indoor/outdoor use. Here are some points from their site:

* Resistant to water, sunlight, chemicals, heat and cold
* Can stick to virtually any surface
* Are durable as they won’t fade or tear

http://www.ptouchdirect.com/ptouch/tz335.html

Jay