Space Discussion Thread

[AaronT]

German weekly Der Spiegel announced recently that astronomers have discovered an Earth-like planet orbiting Proxima Centauri, just 4.25 light-years away. Yes, in what is an apparent trifecta, this newly-discovered exoplanet is Earth-like, orbits within its sun’s habitable zone, and is within our reach.

If the EM-Drive works as efficiently as tests/simulations/math indicates we might not need a "fusion rocket" to get there. We might be able to do it with EM-Drive and a Thorium Liquid Salt Reactor (LFTR) within my lifetime.

EMDrive Solar Explorer

 

[diachi]

If the EM-Drive works as efficiently as tests/simulations/math indicates we might not need a "fusion rocket" to get there. We might be able to do it with EM-Drive and a Thorium Liquid Salt Reactor (LFTR) within my lifetime.

[/IMG]

Interesting, however, there are currently NO LFTR reactors running on the planet (there hasn't been since the 1960s) and we still have many issues to figure out with those. A different power source may be needed if you want to see it happen in your lifetime. Plus we still don't know if the EM drive actually works. We have a long way to go. Just trying to be realistic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Disadvantages

 

[AaronT]

Interesting, however, there are currently NO LFTR reactors running on the planet (there hasn't been since the 1960s) and we still have many issues to figure out with those. A different power source may be needed if you want to see it happen in your lifetime. Plus we still don't know if the EM drive actually works. We have a long way to go. Just trying to be realistic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Disadvantages

Nope doesn't work, nothing to see here, NASA doesn't know how to test things.

Nothing to see here either, India is just processing Thorium into U-233 for fun, they dont have a heavy water Thorium reactor already built, and they have no plans for 3rd gen Thorium LFTR tech in the next 10 years...

All the tech is there, neither Thorium LFTRs nor EMDrive are theories any more. It is only a matter of going from small scale experiments in both fields to demonstration models to actual craft.

For scale space-x JUST tested the new engine 3x more power than Falcon 9. That is supposed to allow us to colonize Mars.

 

[Rivem]

Interesting, however, there are currently NO LFTR reactors running on the planet (there hasn't been since the 1960s) and we still have many issues to figure out with those. A different power source may be needed if you want to see it happen in your lifetime. Plus we still don't know if the EM drive actually works. We have a long way to go. Just trying to be realistic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Disadvantages

We could probably send a small probe in less than half a century with mostly current technology though. I think there's a plan called Breakthrough Starshot that wants to use lasers and microprobes to make it in 20 years or something like that.

EM drives and fission reactors don't look all that useful for space travel at the moment.

 

[diachi]

Nope doesn't work, nothing to see here, NASA doesn't know how to test things.

Nothing to see here either, India is just processing Thorium into U-233 for fun, they dont have a heavy water Thorium reactor already built, and they have no plans for 3rd gen Thorium LFTR tech in the next 10 years...

All the tech is there, neither Thorium LFTRs nor EMDrive are theories any more. It is only a matter of going from small scale experiments in both fields to demonstration models to actual craft.

For scale space-x JUST tested the new engine 3x more power than Falcon 9. That is supposed to allow us to colonize Mars.

The EM drive still hasn't been tested outside of a lab, we still don't understand how it works - we haven't ruled out all sources of error in the experiments and we don't even know if it'll work in space. Once someone launches one into space and it works there, then I'll be able to get behind it completely. Don't get me wrong - I'm hopeful - but trying to be realistic.

I didn't say the Thorium cycle doesn't work - I said there are currently no LFTR reactors and that there are still lots of issues to work out with LFTR. Thorium does work - but there have been no LFTR reactors since the 60s and it'll be a while before there are any again.

I'm excited about Space X - especially their upcoming Falcon 9 re-launch and the Falcon Heavy - especially if they can land all three Falcon Heavy cores - that'll be fantastic to watch. As for their Raptor engine - from everything I've seen they've only just shipped it out to the test site for what I assume is only static testing, so we'll be waiting a while before we see any test results - still exciting though. I hope they can pull off their Mars mission, and for a fraction of the cost versus NASA. Time will tell - even if they are a little late! They are the kick in the ass space travel needs - although they aren't the only ones.

We could probably send a small probe in less than half a century with mostly current technology though. I think there's a plan called Breakthrough Stars hot that want to use lasers and microprobes to make it in 20 years or something like that.

EM drives and fission reactors don't look all that useful for space travel at the moment.

Yes, maybe we can get it there, but good luck communicating with it or putting any useful instruments on it. You need a big transmitter and a big dish to have any chance of covering 4 light years of empty space. Not to mention instruments, control systems, power systems, heating etc.

 

[Rivem]

Yes, maybe we can get it there, but good luck communicating with it or putting any useful instruments on it. You need a big transmitter and a big dish to have any chance of covering 4 light years of empty space. Not to mention instruments, control systems, power systems, heating etc.

Didn't say it was feasible at the moment, but it'd probably only take some extention of technology we already have developed vs completely new realms of technology. The Breakthrough Starshot idea of getting a probe down to a couple grams seems a hit much, but miniaturizing a one way laser communication system, camera, and radioisotope battery might not be too bad. I think Breakthrough Starshot has some big backers behind it now too, so there must be something to it.

 

[diachi]

Didn't say it was feasible at the moment, but it'd probably only take some extention of technology we already have developed vs completely new realms of technology. The Breakthrough Starshot idea of getting a probe down to a couple grams seems a hit much, but miniaturizing a one way laser communication system, camera, and radioisotope battery might not be too bad. I think Breakthrough Starshot has some big backers behind it now too, so there must be something to it.

Ehhh ... I mean in theory it could work, but the technology just isn't even close at the moment maybe in a good few decades, but it's not even remotely close just now. Not to mention the cost of building such a system. The EM drive would be more practical IMO - assuming it actually works in space the way we think it should.

The probe would need to survive about 10,000G of acceleration - at least going by the numbers I've read they're aiming for. 99,900ms^-2 acceleration - that's a lot - for some perspective - that's roughly 0-360,000km/h in one second. It'd also need to survive vacuum, radiation, extreme cold and collisions with space dust.

 

[NightExplorer96]

I started taking an Astronomy class at my local college & am really loving it! So far we've talked about the speed of light, distances in space and today mostly about how big the universe really is! Are there multiple universes? Are universes like Darwinism where some survive and prosper whilst others die off?

There is also a cool video on YouTube from a guy I watch pretty often about the limits of humanity.


-Alex

 

[Benm]

Thorium does work - but there have been no LFTR reactors since the 60s and it'll be a while before there are any again.

That would depend on market conditions mostly. Currently exploring thorium reactors is not that attractive because fossil fuel prices are low. Also thorium reactors are only attractive to countries that seek only nuclear power but no (new) nuclear weapons.

I reckon that the technology will be developed in India since they already have nuclear weapons, a great need for energy, and vast thorium reserves. It's likely that they would run reactors on combined uranium and thorium fuel since they already have the former which can be used to breed fissile material from thorium.

It would be quite a feat if india manages to propel something far into space using this though, but not impossible since they already have a space program of sorts.

 

[Rivem]

Ehhh ... I mean in theory it could work, but the technology just isn't even close at the moment maybe in a good few decades, but it's not even remotely close just now. Not to mention the cost of building such a system. The EM drive would be more practical IMO - assuming it actually works in space the way we think it should.

The probe would need to survive about 10,000G of acceleration - at least going by the numbers I've read they're aiming for. 99,900ms^-2 acceleration - that's a lot - for some perspective - that's roughly 0-360,000km/h in one second. It'd also need to survive vacuum, radiation, extreme cold and collisions with space dust.

I don't think vacuum, radiation or temperature are huge concerns if we're dealing with a very simple system on a chip. Dust would be an issue, but sending a swarm may mitigate the issue as long as there's a statistical threshold they can withstand. Acceleration is with a light sail though, so that's a huge issue, but I haven't seen much on actual goals in that area.

I just like the idea more since I can see we're already on the way to make it possible and have been for a while. Plus, I'm a fan of Hawking who supports the concept.

With warp tech and EM drives, the science just isn't there yet. With nuclear propulsion (pulse or fusion), the engineering has a long way to go. The concept for Starshot is a bit out there, but I feel something like it will likely have the best shot in the foreseeable future at least.

I started taking an Astronomy class at my local college & am really loving it! So far we've talked about the speed of light, distances in space and today mostly about how big the universe really is! Are there multiple universes? Are universes like Darwinism where some survive and prosper whilst others die off?

There is also a cool video on YouTube from a guy I watch pretty often about the limits of humanity.


-Alex

Nice Hap! I can't wait to take my astronomy class. It'll probably be a lot more math and physics than what you're taking, but the concepts are the fun part.

Also. It's only been a week! Look at the last page. You even commented :crackup:

 

[AaronT]

That would depend on market conditions mostly. Currently exploring thorium reactors is not that attractive because fossil fuel prices are low. Also thorium reactors are only attractive to countries that seek only nuclear power but no (new) nuclear weapons.

I reckon that the technology will be developed in India since they already have nuclear weapons, a great need for energy, and vast thorium reserves. It's likely that they would run reactors on combined uranium and thorium fuel since they already have the former which can be used to breed fissile material from thorium.

It would be quite a feat if india manages to propel something far into space using this though, but not impossible since they already have a space program of sorts.

India is literally doing all those things with Thorium as we speak. The processing center in Bombay converts Thorium to U-233

This year they started using that U-233 in existing Reactors.

A dedicated 300mw Reactor is in the final stages at BARC and should be online this year, it will run on U-233 AND use a Thorium blanket to convert Thorium to U-233.

The idea is that facility will produce enough material to fuel several more new U-233 reactors.

India also has a detailed nuclear power development plan including what they call 2nd and 3rd gen reactors, they aren't saying MSR but that is what is assumed by "3rd" gen.



China was supposed to be ahead of India on Thorium from what I gathered from articles older than 2014... After that all info about Chinas Thorium reactor went dark, they aren't saying anything, the media isn't saying anything, and scientists are not releasing any new data to the public.

 

[AaronT]

Along the EMDrive lines I'm watching this guy very closely. Building an testable EMDrive might be something many on this forum could be capable of.

Optical/Laser EMDrive

He is currently building a more "conventional" EMDrive using a magnetron.

QThruster

To date he is not sure which one will work better (theory indicates both should work). He is working to make his test stand more accurate/sensitive over the next few months due to a limited budget.

 

[diachi]

I don't think vacuum, radiation or temperature are huge concerns if we're dealing with a very simple system on a chip. Dust would be an issue, but sending a swarm may mitigate the issue as long as there's a statistical threshold they can withstand. Acceleration is with a light sail though, so that's a huge issue, but I haven't seen much on actual goals in that area.

Doesn't radiation become more of an issue when you make circuits smaller? More chance of a bit flipping I thought? Maybe not all that critical with such a setup - but I can still see radiation being an issue. A large swarm and some radiation hardening would certainly help mitigate some issues.

Along the EMDrive lines I'm watching this guy very closely. Building an testable EMDrive might be something many on this forum could be capable of.


To date he is not sure which one will work better (theory indicates both should work). He is working to make his test stand more accurate/sensitive over the next few months due to a limited budget.
]

Has he made any progress with the optical thruster? Last I checked he hadn't made an update on that for a good while. Interested to see how that turns out too.

 

[AaronT]

Doesn't radiation become more of an issue when you make circuits smaller? More chance of a bit flipping I thought? Maybe not all that critical with such a setup - but I can still see radiation being an issue. A large swarm and some radiation hardening would certainly help mitigate some issues.




Has he made any progress with the optical thruster? Last I checked he hadn't made an update on that for a good while. Interested to see how that turns out too.

As I understand it, he completed the optical thruster but came up against the limits of his testing equipment.

I guess he figured that going back to the original design concept would be more likely to yield results he could detect.

I find it interesting that the thrusters are apparently not that expensive/difficult to build.

As much as some people say the EM Drive is untested, people are already experimenting with cavity design and RF sources based only on a few NASA, Chinese etc tests and computer simulations.

It's smart. The first people to patent the most optimum cavity/RF source combo will make lots of money.

 

[Rivem]

Doesn't radiation become more of an issue when you make circuits smaller? More chance of a bit flipping I thought? Maybe not all that critical with such a setup - but I can still see radiation being an issue. A large swarm and some radiation hardening would certainly help mitigate some issues.

Radiaton does become more of an issue with component density but not necessarily size. Really though, designing a semiconductor system to be more nonvolatile is all it should take. Designing chips that can take interruption easily and non necessarily worrying about data is all it should take. We like to think of computers and microprocessors as completely reprogrammable, but that gives them a lot of weakness towards ionizing radiation. Hardwire your most critical "programs" and error checking, and the ssystem shouldn't be bothered much by radiation. The system might have to restart or get interrupted, but that should be it.

The biggest issues are when a programmable system gets part of the program broken or wiped, and then a reboot fails since the devict doesn't know what to do. There are also tasks that require memory that get interrupted like keeping track of time or measuring over a period of time. Clock resets have caused issues in CubeSats. Some sort of memory will definitely be necessary, so maybe the probe could detect radiation levels before it writes something, and the storage media could be non-rewritable. Thinner components and less shielding also tend to help radiation pass through without issue.

I think a meaningful camera and laser communications system in a tiny grams-scale package are by far the trickiest technological parts they want. I think the propulsion lasers might be best off in space as well. Maybe put them on the moon with a reactor. Just seems like the atmosphere isn't going to be great for shining gigawatt scale lasers throuh for a fine focal point at huge distances with maximal power.

 

[AaronT]

Radiaton does become more of an issue with component density but not necessarily size. Really though, designing a semiconductor system to be more nonvolatile is all it should take. Designing chips that can take interruption easily and non necessarily worrying about data is all it should take. We like to think of computers and microprocessors as completely reprogrammable, but that gives them a lot of weakness towards ionizing radiation. Hardwire your most critical "programs" and error checking, and the ssystem shouldn't be bothered much by radiation. The system might have to restart or get interrupted, but that should be it.

The biggest issues are when a programmable system gets part of the program broken or wiped, and then a reboot fails since the devict doesn't know what to do. There are also tasks that require memory that get interrupted like keeping track of time or measuring over a period of time. Clock resets have caused issues in CubeSats. Some sort of memory will definitely be necessary, so maybe the probe could detect radiation levels before it writes something, and the storage media could be non-rewritable. Thinner components and less shielding also tend to help radiation pass through without issue.

I think a meaningful camera and laser communications system in a tiny grams-scale package are by far the trickiest technological parts they want. I think the propulsion lasers might be best off in space as well. Maybe put them on the moon with a reactor. Just seems like the atmosphere isn't going to be great for shining gigawatt scale lasers throuh for a fine focal point at huge distances with maximal power.

The international community gets really nervous at the idea of putting high power lasers in space.

Currently too many other countries are sending/plan to send/have aspirations of sending things out past the moon, so even putting a laser on the darkside is seen as a threat.

It's too easy to weaponize.