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FrozenGate by Avery

Space Discussion Thread

My thoughts on interstellar travel focus on one aspect: WE MUST DO IT IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO EXTINCT.


The earth, the sun, well, they will not last forever. Yes, we might have a few billion years before the sun converts to a red giant, etc...but we do not know how long before an asteroid analogous to what wiped out the dinosaurs, or larger, whacks us into oblivion in the interim.


That means that we KNOW, we, as a species, will disappear w/o a trace, unless we use the time we DO have, to figure out how to colonize other worlds.


So, yes, the logistics ARE daunting.

The TIME required to traverse the distances involved are mind boggling....and we ARE looking at the potential for the colonization of other worlds to be analogous to mankind's colonization of THIS world.


IE: Our ancestors came from Africa in waves, and, each wave had varied success, over millions of years....eventually inhabiting almost all parts of our planet.


So, just as some English settlers brought their families to the "New World", the earth's settlers will bring THEIR families to other "New Worlds".


The colonists will in turn send their descendants out to yet more new worlds...spreading out through the stars in waves of exploration and colonization...as our ancestor's descendants spread across this planet.

Some, as expected, will stay...and never leave the world they colonized...and, others, will leave on new adventures.


I don't think we will travel faster than light...and I don't think the energies required to warp space will be practical for propulsion...but, then again, perhaps new scientific breakthroughs will find dark matter fission or whatever stuff we can't imagine yet, to work.


With space expanding, and light itself..."tacking into it", the way a ship can sail faster than the wind propelling it, might work for example, etc...but, with what we know TODAY, light speed is the speed limit.

That means even telling those behind what you find gets difficult.

If it takes 100 years at light speed to GET somewhere and send back a message at lightspeed...no one back home gets the message until ~ 200 years after you left.

"You" in the above scenario means you, and your kids, and their kids, and their kids, et al, etc...and the people back home where you left from are also long gone, by the time your post card arrives at lightspeed.


After all that, its just logistics: Working out how to survive long space journeys, and the establishment of colonies, both physically and psychologically.

The "kids" who end up on these new planets would need to know how to colonize it and then leave it to colonize the next one eventually.

This means an ENORMOUS educational and research requirement for these colonists. Enough "Professors" and not too many "Gilligans"...or they are doomed.


Just as early settlers on earth had to be experts at woodcraft, textiles, hunting, and politics, etc, to survive, so too will these new colonists.

The difference is that the American colonists for example saw woods with some different trees and berries and wildlife, they did not see different gravity or atmosphere or lifeforms fundamentally different than English counterparts.

Skills that don't yet have names may be critical to survival on new worlds...and the ability to adapt to these differences will be critical. That means the ability to conduct research and fabrication and adjust behavior, etc, as needed.



It might TAKE millions of years to figure out HOW to do what is needed....we have SO MUCH yet to learn about fundamental physics for example, but, the longest journeys start with but a single step.

We best get steppin.

:D
I'm not too worried about an asteroid impact wiping out our society. Within 50+ years we should easily have the tech to deflect civilization ending asteroids. I think the real 'timer' is related to the sun itself. As it fuses hydrogen into helium the core gets denser. This causes the core temperature to rise and the rate of fusion to increase. Scientists estimate that the sun will be 10% more luminous in 1 billion years.

This Is What the End of All Time Looks Like | Smart News | Smithsonian

600 million years: Thanks to the sun’s increasing luminosity messing with the carbon cycle, all plants that utilize C3 photosynthesis (~99 percent of present-day species) will die. (Talk about putting climate change into perspective . . .)


If our civilization (assuming it's still around) isn't capable of interstellar travel 600 million years from now, I honestly think we don't deserve to go on. Within that amount of time we should have colonized much of the solar system and set up manufacturing bases in the asteroid belt. We'd be able to construct massive interstellar arc ships from the materials in the asteroids. These might take hundreds of years to reach the nearest stars, but they'd basically be built like cities with their own internal ecosystems and such.
 





If our civilization (assuming it's still around) isn't capable of interstellar travel 600 million years from now, I honestly think we don't deserve to go on. Within that amount of time we should have colonized much of the solar system and set up manufacturing bases in the asteroid belt. We'd be able to construct massive interstellar arc ships from the materials in the asteroids. These might take hundreds of years to reach the nearest stars, but they'd basically be built like cities with their own internal ecosystems and such.

Massive starships like this are likely going to be the only way to get civilization to other star systems without near light speed or FTL technology. They could use some stasis technology or keep a multi-generational crew. If they were big enough to carry enough biodiversity for a healthy population, they'd likely be underway for thousands of years, so ships like this will have to be amazingly reliable.

I wouldn't say this kind of space travel is worth it unless the inevitable end of life on Earth gets close without any technology using more advanced physics.

Plus, we really need to identify suitable planets if we're going to send people on any type of interstellar journey, so interstellar probes with near light speed or FTL propulsion may very well still be necessary in the near future to keep starships from falling apart before they find a suitable planet.
 
Massive starships like this are likely going to be the only way to get civilization to other star systems without near light speed or FTL technology. They could use some stasis technology or keep a multi-generational crew. If they were big enough to carry enough biodiversity for a healthy population, they'd likely be underway for thousands of years, so ships like this will have to be amazingly reliable.

I wouldn't say this kind of space travel is worth it unless the inevitable end of life on Earth gets close without any technology using more advanced physics.

Plus, we really need to identify suitable planets if we're going to send people on any type of interstellar journey, so interstellar probes with near light speed or FTL propulsion may very well still be necessary in the near future to keep starships from falling apart before they find a suitable planet.

Yeah.

We still have about 500million-1billion years left here before we gotta move out! I had this idea in my mind. Imagine if we develop enough technology to transport Earth to another star? How cool would that be? Like pyshically move it to another system habitable to life? Technology progresses very quickly and within 500million years it may be possible! :D

-Alex
 
Yeah.

We still have about 500million-1billion years left here before we gotta move out! I had this idea in my mind. Imagine if we develop enough technology to transport Earth to another star? How cool would that be? Like pyshically move it to another system habitable to life? Technology progresses very quickly and within 500million years it may be possible! :D

-Alex

That would be spectacular. This is something I've thought about a bit. At first glance, it seems pretty impossible without some way to seriously manipulate gravity, but it might actually be doable with a huge enclosure and highly deleloped fusion technology.

We'd definitely need to be able to move to other solar systems and have planetary destruction abilities to gather materials since the planets of our own system probably don't have nearly enough of the right materials for a spacecraft of that size.

We'd definitely need massive robotic workforces to build such a craft as well. It'd likely be much more than the mass of the Earth.

I think the major technological issue aside from interstellar travel and the sheer scale would be the power. The craft would have to be able to replace the Sun for the duration of the journey and also produce a lot of thrust for acceleration and deceleration. Presumably, this would have to be done by a fusion reactor of a massive scale. Considering how hard they are to start, such a reactor might have somehow to siphon plasma from a star.

Most of it is definitely in the realm of physical and technological possibility, but we're still a long way off from being able to pull something like it together. Of course, manipulating gravity would make things a whole lot easier. :D

Edit: Then again, why move the Earth to another solar system when it's perfectly supported in a giant space ark? We could just keep exploring the universe, colonizing, and siphoning fuel from stars as we pass through. :)
 
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Edit: Then again, why move the Earth to another solar ssystem when it's perfectly supported in a giant space ark? We could just keep exploring the universe, colonizing, and siphoning fuel from stars as we pass through. :)


Good point! That would be spectacular indeed and amazing! Well, we have 1 billion years to figure out how to do it. That should be plenty of time :)

-Alex
 
If we have the technology to move the earth with all of its plants and animals intact to a star comparable to our sun, we would surely have the technology to rejuvenate our own Sun and keep it going for another million years. It might be as simple as feeding it Jupiter and Saturn!
 
Not really, those planets are only a fraction of the mass of the sun. Even if it could be done somehow that'd only extend the inevitable by a relatively short amount of time.

Then again this could become a problem in a billion years ago. It was about a billion years ago when multicellular organisms developed on earth. Mammals were hardly around until 200 million years ago. We basically have 5 times the time it took to grow from a primordial mouse to a current human to get out of there.

In contrast taking flight in the atmosphere was achieved only a bit over 100 years ago, and we set foot on the moon 50-ish years ago. If you slap on 4 orders of magnitude onto that timeline we might just be okay ;)
 
Not really, those planets are only a fraction of the mass of the sun. Even if it could be done somehow that'd only extend the inevitable by a relatively short amount of time.

Who knows, perhaps only a fraction of the mass of the sun is all that is necessary to extend the sun's life by 1 Million years. A million years is a long time for the human race. Besides, no matter what our future generations attempt to do to save themselves from the galactic forces that could destroy Earth in a blink, nothing lasts forever. Eventually, our Universe will go cold and all living things will die.
 
Who knows, perhaps only a fraction of the mass of the sun is all that is necessary to extend the sun's life by 1 Million years. A million years is a long time for the human race. Besides, no matter what our future generations attempt to do to save themselves from the galactic forces that could destroy Earth in a blink, nothing lasts forever. Eventually, our Universe will go cold and all living things will die.

That's not exactly how stars work though. The issues that will cause the Sun to cosume the Earth have more to do with the buildup of spent fuel in the core of the Sun.

"Refueling" the Sun would involve extracting a lot of the heavier elements in the Sun and dramatically reducing the amount of helium before adding more hydrogen. You'd essentially need a solar "pool filter" to get rid of the heavy stuff and top off the hydrogen which would need some ridiculous tech.

Really though, moving the Earth to different stable orbits within the solar system over time could buy billions of years. Assuming we cold do that, Venus could be moved as well to form a second habitable planet. Smaller planets, moons, and asteroids could be combined into a new planet early on so that it could cool down and become another Earthlike planet for the distant future.
 
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If we ever achieve the capability to move planetary orbits, then damn near anything is possible. Moving Earth's orbit out further would allow us to get another 5+ billion years from the sun. We could also move worlds like mars and venus to habitable areas.(Venus would also need a bunch of the atmosphere removed, but if we're able to move planets that should be easy stuff).

IDK if it will EVER be feasible to move planets (we would probably need to be as advanced as the empire in star wars to do such a thing), but there are also less high-tech solutions to keeping the Earth habitable. The problem is the increasing luminosity of the sun, and there are some surprisingly 'low-tech' solutions which don't require us to move planets. I could see a future civilization simply putting a reflective 'mesh' into space between us and the sun. This mesh could be used to attenuate the amount of sunlight hitting the Earth as needed.
 
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If we ever achieve the capability to move planetary orbits, then damn near anything is possible. Moving Earth's orbit out further would allow us to get another 5+ billion years from the sun. We could also move worlds like mars and venus to habitable areas.(Venus would also need a bunch of the atmosphere removed, but if we're able to move planets that should be easy stuff).

IDK if it will EVER be feasible to move planets (we would probably need to be as advanced as the empire in star wars to do such a thing), but there are also less high-tech solutions to keeping the Earth habitable. The problem is the increasing luminosity of the sun, and there are some surprisingly 'low-tech' solutions which don't require us to move planets. I could see a future civilization simply putting a reflective 'mesh' into space between us and the sun. This mesh could be used to attenuate the amount of sunlight hitting the Earth as needed.

If we're talking Kardashev scale, moving planetary orbits would likely be a type II trait. I don't think it would require interstellar resources at all, so not quite an Empire-worthy task. ;)

I don't know about using some sort of barrier vs moving a planet on a technological scale. Creating something big enough and strong enough to use as a planetary sunscreen would likely mean we have the tech to harvest and build things at a planet-sized scale in space. Moving a planet (albeit slowly) would likely be doable with a massive gravity tractor at that level. Sure you won't be able to move the Earth in a few years, but an outward spiral could be set in motion that takes the Earth slowly outwards over hundreds of millions of years. Just turn the moon into a rocket, and that's all you need. :D

Granted, the low tech space-based solution is really to just put a dust cloud around Earth and sacrifice space travel. The easiest solution would be to create massive ground-based biodomes to control conditions.
 
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If we're talign Kardashev scale, moving planetare orbits would likely be a type II trait. I don't think it would require interstellar resources at all, so not quite an Empire-worthy task. ;)

I don't know about using some sort of barrier vs moving a planet on a technological scale. Creating something big enough and strong enough to use as a planetary sunscreen would likely mean we have the tech to harvest and build things at a planet-sized scale in space. Moving a planet (albeit slowly) would likely be doable with a massive gravity tractor at that level. Sure you won't be able to move the Earth in a few years, but an outward spiral could be set in motion that takes the Earth slowly outwards over hundreds of millions of years. Just turn the moon into a rocket, and that's all you need. :D

Granted, the low tech space-based solution is really to just put a dust cloud around Earth and sacrifice space travel. The easiest solution would be to create massive ground-based biodomes to control conditions.

Yes! Also, while listening to a documentary, a Type II civilization is immortal since they can control anything within star systems. If there's a meteor they can simply stop it. If there's a super nova, they can simply move to another star system.

Pretty amazing :)

-Alex
 
IDK if it will EVER be feasible to move planets

It would be possible to do so today, albeit very slowly.

Moving a planet might seem a very difficult task, but that is only true if you want to do it quickly. If we would launch sails in orbit with some mechanism to keep them facing the sun a good part of the time, that already would push the earth away from the sun.

The rate would be extremely low, but over a million years it could make a difference. There is, after all, no friction to overcome here, and the tiniest of force would be able to add significant momentum given enough time.

One question is if we should mess with the plantes orbit if we can: we could push away to compensate for global warming, but that could royally screw us over if we have a huge volcanic eruption in the future and make the following ice age worse.
 
It would be possible to do so today, albeit very slowly.

Moving a planet might seem a very difficult task, but that is only true if you want to do it quickly. If we would launch sails in orbit with some mechanism to keep them facing the sun a good part of the time, that already would push the earth away from the sun.

The rate would be extremely low, but over a million years it could make a difference. There is, after all, no friction to overcome here, and the tiniest of force would be able to add significant momentum given enough time.

One question is if we should mess with the plantes orbit if we can: we could push away to compensate for global warming, but that could royally screw us over if we have a huge volcanic eruption in the future and make the following ice age worse.

Yeah, good point! Plus, I don't think we should go about messing with the gravity between the planets quite yet until we know what the hec we are doing. Being as there is no friction in space, you would also need a system to counteract the forces pushing the planet outward to slow down. This is may be the only hope we have until we get to find another home, just slowly keep pushing ourselves out as the habitable zone becomes further & further from the Earth's present location.

-Alex
 
Being as there is no friction in space, you would also need a system to counteract the forces pushing the planet outward to slow down.

Not to criticize too much, but that's a serious misunderstanding of orbital mechanics. Really, to go into a farther orbit, you need to increase the tangential speed of an object, and gravity will allow it to move outwards. No need to slow down since removing the accelerating force will cause the object to immediately settle into orbital equilibrium.

The counteracting force would therefore not be necessary since it's already provided by gravity and a circular path.

The ISS is a good example of this. Any time it's reboosted, the thrusters on the trailing end will fire to speed it up and raise altitude. They don't "brake" since that would cause it to fall back down. Lots of good videos of this.

Totally an understandable mistake though. Physics gets much more pure than we're used to when talking about space travel, so it's not always intuitive. :)
 





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