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my thought exactly just didnt want to be a ass
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FrozenGate by Avery
Posting a picture of safety glasses before starting a thread
- Thread starter Helios
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regalis
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i also think it would be nice to check the safety of the members first prior to sending them high power laser"guns" 
I worry about the bystanders...
I worry about the bystanders...
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are you going to propose a method of doing this
JBTexas
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(etc)
... so I should buy a camera (which I currently don't have) before I can ask for laser buying advice, or before I can purchase lasers here...
... and on a fixed income ... which makes it difficult for me to buy lasers in the first place ...
... I guess we can exclude many retirees from being laser hobbyists ...
(EDIT) (sorry) One point is that although the INTENT of the idea is positive enough, it is NOT practical. You can't go around assuming that everyone is an idiot and demanding proof that they arer NOT idiots. The idea "goes too far". It is close to "thought police".
We could demand proof that someone owns a first aid kit before buying tools. We could demand that a person proves that they have passed a safety course before they start using soldering equipment. And so on.
Back when I was a *NEW* newbie, if I had asked about laser advice, and I was told that I had to provide a picture of safety goggles before anyone would answer me, I would have been completely turned off to the hobby. I would have felt insulted. I would have quit the board.
I CAN agree with ENCOURAGING sellers to include safety goggles w/ lasers and kits. But it isn't something you can FORCE.
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i agree with the the asking questions part it is a little to far.
but i do think most people have a camera on there phone atleast so it shouldnt be that big of a hassle for most (notice the most)
but also when paying with Paypal it shows the list of items you bought. so maybe you could edit the picture to take out personal information and post that
but i do think most people have a camera on there phone atleast so it shouldnt be that big of a hassle for most (notice the most)
but also when paying with Paypal it shows the list of items you bought. so maybe you could edit the picture to take out personal information and post that
JBTexas
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I do not have a mobile phone. Just an "old-fashioned" landline. I do not need anything else, with my lifestyle.
Helios
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well if someone doesnt have a camera that could simply be explained. The only reason I suggested this is because there are two types of people we are helping every day.
Type 1: New Laser Enthusiasts - These people are not the problem. They will buy laser glasses because they value their own eyes as well as others. They also should appreciate any efforts put forward to help ensure their own safety when dealing with dangerous items they have no experience with.
Type 2: Idiots - These people dont want to buy laser glasses because that means they have $20 less to spend on their DX laser. They may say they have them just to please the safety conscious people on the forum. In reality they think we are just paranoid and they just want the laser to shine at other people and cars anyway.
My thought was that this would not hinder type 1 people but would weed out type 2. I can tell you that if I was asked to provide evidence of having safety equipment I would not have minded since at the time those who would have been requesting it were all far more knowledgeable about this stuff. The people who have the ability to provide evidence but refuse to are the people who dont have them and dont plan to purchase them.
Type 1: New Laser Enthusiasts - These people are not the problem. They will buy laser glasses because they value their own eyes as well as others. They also should appreciate any efforts put forward to help ensure their own safety when dealing with dangerous items they have no experience with.
Type 2: Idiots - These people dont want to buy laser glasses because that means they have $20 less to spend on their DX laser. They may say they have them just to please the safety conscious people on the forum. In reality they think we are just paranoid and they just want the laser to shine at other people and cars anyway.
My thought was that this would not hinder type 1 people but would weed out type 2. I can tell you that if I was asked to provide evidence of having safety equipment I would not have minded since at the time those who would have been requesting it were all far more knowledgeable about this stuff. The people who have the ability to provide evidence but refuse to are the people who dont have them and dont plan to purchase them.
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JBTexas do u think my PayPal idea would work for someone in your position?
i don't know if the same happens on a credit card statement because i don't have one i use my moms PayPal when buying things online
i don't know if the same happens on a credit card statement because i don't have one i use my moms PayPal when buying things online
JBTexas
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bennet326;
I'm not sure what you mean (?)... to review...
The issue is whether people should be required to show a photo of their safety goggles before asking (laser-related) questions, or before buying things from sellers in the forum.
The obvious intent is to promote safety; the idea is that if a person has already purchased safety goggles, then he or she is *probably* responsible enough to use lasers safely.
The conclusion is that if a person has not purchased safety goggles yet (proved by the picture that is provided), then people on the forum would refuse information, and refuse to sell to the person. Basically they would get a "cold shoulder", or at best someone would politely inform them that they need to use a digital camera or a phone with a camera and display their safety goggles before they could interact on the forum.
My point is that the concept is impractical, and "borderline ridiculous", even if the idea is well intentioned.
Not everyone has a digital camera. I don't. Not everyone has a digital phone. I don't. And I will not purchase a camera or a phone/camera to prove to the forum that I own goggles. Why should I? It is "enforcement", and a "power-play", taken to a ridiculous extreme.
About PayPal? I don't understand exactly what you are asking. If I don't have a camera, then I don't have a camera, and PayPal has nothing to do with it.
I'm not sure what you mean (?)... to review...
The issue is whether people should be required to show a photo of their safety goggles before asking (laser-related) questions, or before buying things from sellers in the forum.
The obvious intent is to promote safety; the idea is that if a person has already purchased safety goggles, then he or she is *probably* responsible enough to use lasers safely.
The conclusion is that if a person has not purchased safety goggles yet (proved by the picture that is provided), then people on the forum would refuse information, and refuse to sell to the person. Basically they would get a "cold shoulder", or at best someone would politely inform them that they need to use a digital camera or a phone with a camera and display their safety goggles before they could interact on the forum.
My point is that the concept is impractical, and "borderline ridiculous", even if the idea is well intentioned.
Not everyone has a digital camera. I don't. Not everyone has a digital phone. I don't. And I will not purchase a camera or a phone/camera to prove to the forum that I own goggles. Why should I? It is "enforcement", and a "power-play", taken to a ridiculous extreme.
About PayPal? I don't understand exactly what you are asking. If I don't have a camera, then I don't have a camera, and PayPal has nothing to do with it.
Helios
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That is not at all true or what is suggested. I have refused to sell items to individuals without laser glasses as I believe anyone selling lasers should. However I did not say "I will not sell to you" I said "please purchase some laser glasses and then pm me" That is not a cold shoulder that is being responsible. Also a picture would not have to be mandatory I am just suggesting that we make some sort of effort to ensure that we are not helping people who are not willing to take the proper safety measures to build or buy dangerously powerful lasers. If someone has no access to a digital camera (which is probably .01% of the population here as you can get one for $10-$30) then they can explain that and we can proceed differently.
I understand that you do not have a digital camera which is obviously a personal choice and there is no fault in that but I find it hard to believe that there are many other people who use the internet enough to join a technology forum and dont have access to a digital camera.
Also this was only a suggestion. Maybe it would be better to just ask if they have them and say that if a picture of laser safety glasses is posted they are more likely to receive help because we are a safety conscious forum.
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It would be kind of weird to not answer questions based on if they own safety glasses... I could see maybe with the sale of a high powered equipment but not for just asking questions.
If people refuse to sell stuff to them here they will just go to Dino or DX who will gladly sell them a 2W IR laser they will shine in their eye trying to figure out why nothing is coming out of the aperture
If people refuse to sell stuff to them here they will just go to Dino or DX who will gladly sell them a 2W IR laser they will shine in their eye trying to figure out why nothing is coming out of the aperture
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The exchange of information is unlimited and free. That is the whole point of having a "forum". It is for discussions and exchanges of ideas that work to the benefit of all.
A suggestion for intention or posession of safety related materials is the question for discussion here.
While it is a good idea in theory, the practicality is in question.
As a seller, you are completely entitled to ask for anything you see fit for your own comfort.
The purchaser also has the right to meet your request(s) or purchase somewhere else where they feel comfortable buying.
The more extreme your requirements, as a seller, the less you will sell. The less you want to meet those terms, as a buyer, the less you will buy.
So despite anything suggested here, you are still free to ask for proof of goggles/glasses if you are so inclined.
What you accept as proof (or intent) is completely up to you.
I think to try to adopt some sort of policy here on an informal forum would only lead to more trouble than it is worth.
But kudos to you for bringing up the topic.
A suggestion for intention or posession of safety related materials is the question for discussion here.
While it is a good idea in theory, the practicality is in question.
As a seller, you are completely entitled to ask for anything you see fit for your own comfort.
The purchaser also has the right to meet your request(s) or purchase somewhere else where they feel comfortable buying.
The more extreme your requirements, as a seller, the less you will sell. The less you want to meet those terms, as a buyer, the less you will buy.
So despite anything suggested here, you are still free to ask for proof of goggles/glasses if you are so inclined.
What you accept as proof (or intent) is completely up to you.
I think to try to adopt some sort of policy here on an informal forum would only lead to more trouble than it is worth.
But kudos to you for bringing up the topic.
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It would be a great idea if sellers did pose the question "Do you have safety glasses for this laser because they are important" and maybe link an article. If they say "NO" offer a link to some decently priced but good quality glasses.
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@ jbTexas
a picture isn't necessarily the only way to proof that you have bought glasses. what i am saying is if show a papal receipt showing what you bought then you have proven you own laser safety goggles.
i never said i agreed with the proposal of making it were you cant ask a question without safety glasses. i only suggested you need proof if you are buying a completed laser from a member
a picture isn't necessarily the only way to proof that you have bought glasses. what i am saying is if show a papal receipt showing what you bought then you have proven you own laser safety goggles.
i never said i agreed with the proposal of making it were you cant ask a question without safety glasses. i only suggested you need proof if you are buying a completed laser from a member
JBTexas
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I had a PayPal account years ago and cancelled it (security concerns).
I only recently established a new one just so I could buy through this forum. In fact, I was reluctant at first to get a new one... you can search my posting history (back through June or so), and find traces of that reluctance.
Okay then... the first hi-power laser that I had decided to purchase was a 200mw 532nm from a Chinese seller. But I needed reliable goggles.
I purchased my first set of safety goggles from a member here in the forum. This was BEFORE I got a new paypal account. We agreed (through PMs) that I would send him a check, and I remember saying "Of course you can wait until the check clears".
So there is NO paypal receipt for my first set of goggles. I suppose in this hypothetical situation that I could get that other established member to vouch for me and to declare to the forum that I purchased goggles from him.
But putting myself in the mind of a new forum member, who has to "prove myself with goggles", I can see how the frustration and annoyance levels might already be growing.
I just logged onto paypal. I tried to *download* my entire purchase history via a PDF file. That didn't work... it's glitched. I specified a RANGE from 1 January 2011 to the present (16 August 2011). The downloaded PDF *ONLY* contains transactions in August. I tried twice more, making VERY SURE that I did it right. No joy.
Okay... no problem... so from within PayPal I just specified the display of my entire order history this year. Okay, that worked. What I get is a clickable list of all of my transactions.
Looking at that order history, I COULD click on a specific order from Radiant Electronics, and THAT record DOES contain a reference to "Radiant Shades"; my 2nd pair of goggles. (That does NOT constitute a ** RECEIPT ** though. More on that later).
Also another record from Survival Laser, where I ordered the Survival Laser "R" 660nm parts *bundle* with *accessories*. Which includes goggles for red lasers, although the *PayPal record* doesn't specifically say that. To constitute "proof", you have to go to the Survival Laser website and verify the contents of the bundle.
At any rate; I could copy the two relevant orders into a text file, or take a screenshot, whatever; removing all personal information; thus "proving" the existance of my 2nd and 3rd pair of goggles.
BUT... see where I am going with this?
WHAT did I have to go through to aquire that information?
AND those were not RECEIPTS... so you mean the emailed receipts that I get from PayPal? What if I deleted all those some time ago and I have no record of them?
What if a new member jumps through all of these hoops, DOES provide a textfile, screenshot, etc., thus "proving" that he has goggles, and successfully purchases a laser. BUT by the time he figured out how to do this for the forum or for a seller on the forum, he was very frustrated, and does not remove ALL personal info from the aquired PayPal data? Maybe he says "To heck withit, I just want my laser" and doesn't bother removing anything. And the SELLER is less than honest?
"I joined a forum, but they wanted me to go through all this stuff with my PayPal history, I gave the seller what he wanted, and THEN he hacked into my identity and ripped me off! THAT FORUM STINKS!"
See where I am going with this?
Also, any record of a paypal transaction could be FAKED. Granted, most people wouldn't bother. But what if a person wanted a *particular* laser REALLY BAD, and he *felt* that the only way to get it would be through this forum. Then a light bulb clicks on over his head... in just a few minutes, he can "fake a PayPal receipt".
-----
What if a person *already has some experience* with lasers, and *already has goggles* when he joins the forum?
"I want to buy a laser from you."
"Okay, send me PROOF that you have goggles!"
"Proof?"
"Send me a picture of your goggles!"
"MODS: Please delete my account from this forum immediately!"
-----
As I said, *I* don't have a camera or a digital phone. I shouldn't have to buy either just to participate in this forum (asking questions, buying things). What if I never NEEDED a digicam or a cameraphone before I joined this forum? If *I* don't have either of them, it's reasonable to assume that *others* won't have them.
It doesn't matter if "well... MOST people have them...". It's still exclusionary and disenfranchising. NOT directly because of laser safety, because a person doesn't have a camera or a phone.
It's been suggested "well, if you don't have a camera than we could take that into account". Okay... how? why? If a forum wide SYSTEM is going to be imposed, a security or safety policy, demanding proof of goggles, then it has to be UNIVERSAL. You can't make exceptions. That's true of any security or safety system.
OR, we could just do what we do now. Leave it up to the sellers. Aren't they intelligent enough to make their OWN decisions?
Are they not? Okay, if NOT, then which ones? Do YOU want to be the one that posts a list... "Do NOT buy from these people because they do NOT demand proof of goggles!". Hmm... smacks of a police state.
-----
Don't get me wrong... *I* am safety minded. So much so, that I STILL might not bother buying a 445nm laser (when I can afford it) (it's a trade-off between "what would I DO with this 1W+ 445?, versus the potential danger of it). I have 3 sets of safety goggles now. I was in the military for 22 years, in the Security & Intell field, doing all SORTS of things, and that translates well into safety-mindedness.
But, no matter how well-intentioned a particular idea might be, it might also be completely impractical. TO BEGIN WITH.
And I am fundamentally OFFENDED by this idea. There is something about it that smacks of a "police state". At some point, you just have to trust people. If they lie and misrepresent themselves, then so be it. To DEMAND proof of goggle ownership is VERY offensive.
It is perfectly fine for a *seller* to go "through a process" and to try to determine things about buyers and make a decisions regarding whether to sell. Hopefully, through a reasonable process of questions, though, and through that buyer's posting history... NOT "Send me a picture of your goggles!". Do you REALLY want to take it out of the hands of the sellers and adopt a *forum policy*?
Be reasonable. *IF* a policy was established whereby members had to provide pictures of their goggles before they could ask questions or buy things, don't you think that would cut down new membership drastically? Perhaps END it? *I* consider myself mature, rational, safety minded... but if I had been asked to provide credentials to that level (giving in to a demand of proof of goggles), I would have asked the mods to delete my forum membership. Scratch one otherwise-OK member.
I only recently established a new one just so I could buy through this forum. In fact, I was reluctant at first to get a new one... you can search my posting history (back through June or so), and find traces of that reluctance.
Okay then... the first hi-power laser that I had decided to purchase was a 200mw 532nm from a Chinese seller. But I needed reliable goggles.
I purchased my first set of safety goggles from a member here in the forum. This was BEFORE I got a new paypal account. We agreed (through PMs) that I would send him a check, and I remember saying "Of course you can wait until the check clears".
So there is NO paypal receipt for my first set of goggles. I suppose in this hypothetical situation that I could get that other established member to vouch for me and to declare to the forum that I purchased goggles from him.
But putting myself in the mind of a new forum member, who has to "prove myself with goggles", I can see how the frustration and annoyance levels might already be growing.
I just logged onto paypal. I tried to *download* my entire purchase history via a PDF file. That didn't work... it's glitched. I specified a RANGE from 1 January 2011 to the present (16 August 2011). The downloaded PDF *ONLY* contains transactions in August. I tried twice more, making VERY SURE that I did it right. No joy.
Okay... no problem... so from within PayPal I just specified the display of my entire order history this year. Okay, that worked. What I get is a clickable list of all of my transactions.
Looking at that order history, I COULD click on a specific order from Radiant Electronics, and THAT record DOES contain a reference to "Radiant Shades"; my 2nd pair of goggles. (That does NOT constitute a ** RECEIPT ** though. More on that later).
Also another record from Survival Laser, where I ordered the Survival Laser "R" 660nm parts *bundle* with *accessories*. Which includes goggles for red lasers, although the *PayPal record* doesn't specifically say that. To constitute "proof", you have to go to the Survival Laser website and verify the contents of the bundle.
At any rate; I could copy the two relevant orders into a text file, or take a screenshot, whatever; removing all personal information; thus "proving" the existance of my 2nd and 3rd pair of goggles.
BUT... see where I am going with this?
WHAT did I have to go through to aquire that information?
AND those were not RECEIPTS... so you mean the emailed receipts that I get from PayPal? What if I deleted all those some time ago and I have no record of them?
What if a new member jumps through all of these hoops, DOES provide a textfile, screenshot, etc., thus "proving" that he has goggles, and successfully purchases a laser. BUT by the time he figured out how to do this for the forum or for a seller on the forum, he was very frustrated, and does not remove ALL personal info from the aquired PayPal data? Maybe he says "To heck withit, I just want my laser" and doesn't bother removing anything. And the SELLER is less than honest?
"I joined a forum, but they wanted me to go through all this stuff with my PayPal history, I gave the seller what he wanted, and THEN he hacked into my identity and ripped me off! THAT FORUM STINKS!"
See where I am going with this?
Also, any record of a paypal transaction could be FAKED. Granted, most people wouldn't bother. But what if a person wanted a *particular* laser REALLY BAD, and he *felt* that the only way to get it would be through this forum. Then a light bulb clicks on over his head... in just a few minutes, he can "fake a PayPal receipt".
-----
What if a person *already has some experience* with lasers, and *already has goggles* when he joins the forum?
"I want to buy a laser from you."
"Okay, send me PROOF that you have goggles!"
"Proof?"
"Send me a picture of your goggles!"
"MODS: Please delete my account from this forum immediately!"
-----
As I said, *I* don't have a camera or a digital phone. I shouldn't have to buy either just to participate in this forum (asking questions, buying things). What if I never NEEDED a digicam or a cameraphone before I joined this forum? If *I* don't have either of them, it's reasonable to assume that *others* won't have them.
It doesn't matter if "well... MOST people have them...". It's still exclusionary and disenfranchising. NOT directly because of laser safety, because a person doesn't have a camera or a phone.
It's been suggested "well, if you don't have a camera than we could take that into account". Okay... how? why? If a forum wide SYSTEM is going to be imposed, a security or safety policy, demanding proof of goggles, then it has to be UNIVERSAL. You can't make exceptions. That's true of any security or safety system.
OR, we could just do what we do now. Leave it up to the sellers. Aren't they intelligent enough to make their OWN decisions?
Are they not? Okay, if NOT, then which ones? Do YOU want to be the one that posts a list... "Do NOT buy from these people because they do NOT demand proof of goggles!". Hmm... smacks of a police state.
-----
Don't get me wrong... *I* am safety minded. So much so, that I STILL might not bother buying a 445nm laser (when I can afford it) (it's a trade-off between "what would I DO with this 1W+ 445?, versus the potential danger of it). I have 3 sets of safety goggles now. I was in the military for 22 years, in the Security & Intell field, doing all SORTS of things, and that translates well into safety-mindedness.
But, no matter how well-intentioned a particular idea might be, it might also be completely impractical. TO BEGIN WITH.
And I am fundamentally OFFENDED by this idea. There is something about it that smacks of a "police state". At some point, you just have to trust people. If they lie and misrepresent themselves, then so be it. To DEMAND proof of goggle ownership is VERY offensive.
It is perfectly fine for a *seller* to go "through a process" and to try to determine things about buyers and make a decisions regarding whether to sell. Hopefully, through a reasonable process of questions, though, and through that buyer's posting history... NOT "Send me a picture of your goggles!". Do you REALLY want to take it out of the hands of the sellers and adopt a *forum policy*?
Be reasonable. *IF* a policy was established whereby members had to provide pictures of their goggles before they could ask questions or buy things, don't you think that would cut down new membership drastically? Perhaps END it? *I* consider myself mature, rational, safety minded... but if I had been asked to provide credentials to that level (giving in to a demand of proof of goggles), I would have asked the mods to delete my forum membership. Scratch one otherwise-OK member.
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Helios
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There are forums out there that require a certain level of dedication and effort to join in order to reap the benefits of the shared knowledge. These forums have amazing information packed threads that in each post further the topic but this is because of the exclusion of those not willing to work for the privilege. This forum is not one of them as it accepts any and all to ask any questions they like without any proof as to their knowledge level or their intentions. AND that is just fine as this forum serves a different crowd and a different purpose. As I have said over and over this was only a suggestion and really it doesnt effect me personally as much as it may the forum itself. There may be some accountability of the forum for the advice it dispenses as has been demonstrated with previous legal action in the 445nm craze. However I am not a lawyer so maybe I am just paranoid.
I think it would be nice to let those too impatient to adhere to some simple attempts at ensuring members safety turn away and it would demonstrate that this forum is part of the solution and not the problem. But I will let this thread die as there has not been a lot of support for my suggestion. All is far in love and on the internet.
I think it would be nice to let those too impatient to adhere to some simple attempts at ensuring members safety turn away and it would demonstrate that this forum is part of the solution and not the problem. But I will let this thread die as there has not been a lot of support for my suggestion. All is far in love and on the internet.
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