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FrozenGate by Avery

iraq war ending !!!






Weird, because that's pretty much the same time-table as Bush had laid out last fall.

From http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/18/africa/17forcescnd.php:

"The draft of the emerging agreement includes a timeline for the withdrawal of American combat troops, calling for them to move out of Iraq's cities and towns by mid-summer 2009 and to leave the country in 2011, according to an Iraqi government spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, who commented on Wednesday in Iraq."


Obama will get the credit it seems, but it's the same plan Bush had last fall.
 
pullbangdead said:
Weird, because that's pretty much the same time-table as Bush had laid out last fall.

From http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/18/africa/17forcescnd.php:

"The draft of the emerging agreement includes a timeline for the withdrawal of American combat troops, calling for them to move out of Iraq's cities and towns by mid-summer 2009 and to leave the country in 2011, according to an Iraqi government spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, who commented on Wednesday in Iraq."


Obama will get the credit it seems, but it's the same plan Bush had last fall.
Click to expand...

YOU TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH
 
It won't matter. As soon as the troops draw down to a level where they can only protect themselves, Iraq will fall into civil war and a new totalitarian government will rise. Understanding the culture is paramount when conducting operations. The military effectively neutralized Iraq, its army and its rebels. The US Army could have wiped Iraq off the face of the earth but in the interests of being the good guys it did not happen. Instead, the seeds of civil war have been left in place to grow when there is no longer an Army to stop it.

The Iraqi Army and Police will run at the first signs of trouble. The people understand one thing only: it is better to live on your knees than to die on your feet. What that means is taking a stand for what is right will never happen in Iraq. That is the culture of totalitarian rule. The United States was an occupation force in Europe until 1962 to insure the stability of the governments and the fortitude of the people. Not enough time has passed for the Iraqi people to forget how to live as subjugated people.

The Military Channel often runs a clip of a Lt. Colonel telling his troops that they are not conquerors, they are liberators. What a bunch of crap. No one was liberated. When the troops were not around the populace was pro-bathist, pro-Iman or whoever was vying for power. When they showed up the populace was cheering for coalition. The population of Iraq will side with whoever will cause them the least trouble at any given moment.

So much for doing it right. Clausewitz was right. War is politics by other means. Never will the military be allowed to truly win a war because politics is always brought to bear. Politicians always forget that when things get so bad you need to go to war that you go to war to win. Unfortunately, total war and political longevity are inversely proportional. Looking good is more important than the lives of soldiers. After all a soldiers job is to die, and the politicians job is to get re-elected. Hardly seems like a fair trade but who am I to get in the way of tradition.

So enjoy the peace. Mr. Obama, when you draw down the troops, get them all out at once. No need to have video of helicopters rescuing people from an embassy rooftop as the country collapses. That happened the last time we achieved peace with honor.
 
two thumbs up chimp!!!

I hate war. But if your gonna do it, DO IT!!!
 
This goes a little beyond Iraq"s reality, but it explains how/why the inevitable outcome, that Frothy explains above, will come about.  You can see where they are, what they believe, and what is in the wings waiting for the void left by the exit of the military.

Warning, it is >10 minutes long

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE[/media]

Peace,
dave
 
Very educational as expected from you dag. I honestly thought we were a democracy. I'm glad to find that we aren't after watching that.

We just got done going over the Vietnam conflict (not a war) in international relations and considering I didn't pay any attention in high school, had no clue what happened. Just that it was terrible. Now I'm enlightened. Was my whole purpose of going to school.

I'm not sure what should be done about Iraq and honestly I don't know if I'm qualified to make that decision in the first place. However, I know that we should either have not gotten involved in the first place, or should have completely taken over.
 
Interesting video. One thing it dismisses though is that there are some very democratic parts of our government, especially some of the states. For example, ballot initiatives in CA, which require only a simple majority to pass, like the recent prop 8. And prop 8 may just be a very good example of what happens when you have simple majority rule: the many will take away the rights of the few. So in that way, it is absolutely right about the effects of having pure democracy, and why pure democracy doesn't work. Prop 8, to me, is a prime example of that. So it ends up just backing their point even more, it seems.

To me, it's just silly that a simple majority of people can do ANYTHING in California with a ballot initiative, and yet passing a budget in the legislature requires a fully 2/3 vote, one of only 3 states to require such a high margin. The current predicament with the California budget even seems, to me, to be kind of an example of what happens when you have too much democracy.
 
pullbangdead said:
Interesting video.  One thing it dismisses though is that there are some very democratic parts of our government, especially some of the states.  For example, ballot initiatives in CA, which require only a simple majority to pass, like the recent prop 8.  And prop 8 may just be a very good example of what happens when you have simple majority rule: the many will take away the rights of the few.  So in that way, it is absolutely right about the effects of having pure democracy, and why pure democracy doesn't work.  Prop 8, to me, is a prime example of that.  So it ends up just backing their point even more, it seems.
To me, it's just silly that a simple majority of people can do ANYTHING in California with a ballot initiative, and yet passing a budget in the legislature requires a fully 2/3 vote, one of only 3 states to require such a high margin.  The current predicament with the California budget even seems, to me, to be kind of an example of what happens when you have too much democracy.
Click to expand...


Being a republic (ruled by the elite) rather than a democracy allows for things like Prop 8 to be taken to and challenged in court.  The majority cannot usurp the law.

You can thank the Howard Jarvis (anti) tax organization for the 2/3rds vote requirement to raise taxes in CA.  The law was passed in response to the last time that taxation was being driven out of control by the legislature.

@Kenom -- There are significantly more important and insidious things going on in the Middle East.  I would hazard a guess that things are going exactly as hoped.  Remember, the members of the ruling class look far beyond being re-elected (because they are not elected officials).  Based in long term projections, I would think that today's actions are intended for an outcome that won't be realized for 70-100 years in the future.

We have now shown the people of the Middle East that WE CAN create peace out of chaos.  However, we have not truly eliminated the threats in the area.  In order to be asked to take complete control, there must first be anarchy (or at least massive, recognized, oppression).  Eventually the people will welcome the controls needed for safety.  

Keep Maslow's Hierarchy of needs in mind.  
Now think about what the Middle East has to offer to maintain its power base, its global influence, and to protect and provide for its people.  
Now think about who's oil we are burning up at an unprecedented rate, while at the same time "protecting" our oil reserves under the disguise of environmentalism.

If your god cannot keep you in power and protected, who can?

Peace,
dave
 
I've written about the Iraq subject in other venues but my whole premise is we backed the wrong horse (again). Who fought and died for their freedom shoulder to shoulder with our special operations forces? It was the Kurds. If I had my way, Iraq would be split into north and south with the new Kurdistan taking the north and all the northern oil fields and leave the south to slip into the religious civil war that has been repressed these many years. At least the Kurds would welcome us as a true allies. We could face out and guard the borders without having to watch our backs. We could shoot and kill every stinkin' Syrian, Jordanian, Iranian or Iraqi who steps over that border intent on putting the Kurds back in their place.

Unfortunately, the world is full of political intrigue. As it so happens we really don't want to upset the Turks (our NATO allies) by helping their enemies. The Turks really want to step over the border and kill all Kurds. So the Kurds get dumped on again. After Desert Storm the CIA withdrew support for their uprising after they started it. Now they will pay the price again. Once Iraq collapses it will be a free for all against the Kurds again. They get blamed for everything.
 
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