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What is Reality?

Helios

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Dude you're reading way to much into things. Sounds like you have some deep issues there that still need to be worked out in your life.

I'm sure the cavemen thought the sun was the center of the universe. There are also many other cultures that believed the same thing.

what?....

Why do I have issues? Where did that come from?
 



Cyparagon

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Are you sure you don't mean we thought the earth was the center of the universe?

aristotle.gif



We believed that when science was heresy.
 

Helios

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Within 2 days you start debates about God on 2 separate threads. If you want to argue religion there is a thread for that.

I think you need to rethink that buddy. This is the same thread and im not the one who started religion talk in this thread. Religion wasnt even on my mind when I started this thread.

Also I deleted my post because I didnt want to start another debate
 
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Tech_Junkie

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I think you need to rethink that buddy. This is the same thread and im not the one who started religion talk in this thread. Religion wasnt even on my mind when I started this thread.

You are correct, just one thread. I read so many I get mixed up sometime. In any event the religious talk went to PM IIRC. I was only talking about past scientific beliefs. I dont see how you pulled God out of that.
 

Helios

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You are correct, just one thread. I read so many I get mixed up sometime. In any event the religious talk went to PM IIRC. I was only talking about past scientific beliefs. I dont see how you pulled God out of that.

I was merely commenting that some people still believe in a geocentric model after you mentioned past belief in a heliocentric model (although now that I think about it I think you meant to describe a geocentric model as heliocentric is the current agreed upon model).

Im sorry if it seemed I was trying to start a religious debate but that was really not my intention. I was actually assuming that we dont have any geocentric defenders either religious or secular here so no argument could be had. That assumption could have been wrong however so I deleted the post.

Misunderstanding solved - back to the topic? :beer:
 
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RA_pierce

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Science is also formulated by the mind. Just because we can prove things to ourselves doesnt mean its reality. Not long ago we believed the sun was the center of the universe. Sure we laugh at it now, but keep in mind people will be laughing at us 100 years in the future. Things get disproved everyday.


You are saying that we can't necessarily accept science as truth because it is invented in our minds and therefore subject to our perceptions and individual observations?
Well, science is a careful study of phenomena that we explain using logic and reasoning.
Yes, sometimes our measurements or observations can be flawed, but is that really because the phenomena might not be real or is it just because we made an error or perhaps there is some additional complexity to the answer? Would you say that it is our perception that 4 = 2 + 2 = 2^2 or is that a mathematical truth independent of our subjective perceptions, opinions, and conception?

Our observations about the universe may sometimes be incorrect, but that does not change reality. It just means that our ability to understand reality is insufficient.
The fact that scientific facts are constantly being refined, recalculated, and tested shows we are making an effort to find truth, not that nothing is real outside our imagination.
As it is, mathematics is discovered, not created. The same is true for science. The fact that we find "truth" by deduction, observation, and experimentation shows that there are ideas embedded into what we perceive with our senses and they are fixed and constant.

If you believe that perception is reality then the model of the Earth centered universe can still hold true. If that's the case, then women with an education are witches, Moses split the Red Sea, and (x + y)^n factors as (x^n + y^n).


Have you heard of Plato's Forms?
 
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Tech_Junkie

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It just means that our ability to understand reality is insufficient.

That pretty much sums up my whole point.

We only have our minds to understand our minds. That in its self will always be flawed, because each person is limited by our own understanding. There may be even a higher math that dismisses what we understand now.

No, I've never heard of Plato's Form, but I'll read up on it.

My reasoning behind my opinion oddly comes from hallucinogens. I dont mean out of body experiences, or colorful imagery. These things come from limiting the sensory receptors, and pull from the subconscious, defunct of logic. I'm talking about heightened sensory perception. Where time, physics, logic, and other laws of science do not exists. I've even experienced telepathy, and events that defy coincidence. Sure, you can say "you're on drugs man" but thats where my point comes in. How can you be sure your mind is not the one that is operating in a altered state? You dont have to do drugs to have an altered state. People who are "insane" dont know they are insane. Because of what they perceive to be reality follows all logic and is so strong that there is no doubt in their mind its reality. Which brings me back to my original point...

Reality is what our senses perceive it to be. Everything we do is based on our minds ability to formulate. The mind can easily be misinformed, and altered. So everyone's reality is unique. On the flip side, we will always ponder what true reality is because the mind is not absolute.

Edit: I need to change this quote "Where time, physics, logic, and other laws of science do not exist." These do exist, but are not contained by the same rules of the general (for lack of a better word) perception of reality.
 
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Tech_Junkie

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You can keep going by saying insane/drugged people have an open window to the 5th dimension, or parallel universes. They are naturaly evolving, but the sensory is so strong the weak mind cant handle it, and goes insane. Its common knowledge there is a fine line between insanity and genius.

Also laws of physics, and other sciences are taught, and stem from a general consensus of collected minds. History has proven many times over that the general consensus can be wrong. Teaching is nothing more than telling our minds what things should be, and how to look at it. Programing if you will.

What if they are all wrong?

<---Must be kind of funny reading this and looking at my avatar. Kind of ironic actually. You think he's stupid, but in real life he was a smart man. Once again the illusions of reality in play.
 
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Tech_Junkie

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LMAO...what...no rebuttal?

Yeah I'm one of those insane people, but at least I know/admit I'm insane. :tinfoil: Its hard to pretend you're normal sometimes.
 

millirad

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^Sanity isn't nearly as much fun. :D
 
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random person

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Also laws of physics, and other sciences are taught, and stem from a general consensus of collected minds. History has proven many times over that the general consensus can be wrong. Teaching is nothing more than telling our minds what things should be, and how to look at it. Programing if you will.

Nice points...... nothing is more annoying than when people religiously believe in their "scientific" views and are willing to "debate" to insanely illogical and emotional levels. (Christians and atheists alike)

All science is generally dis proven overtime and endless amounts of new theories are then invented. Concepts of gravity, theory of solid state electronics, and the atomic model are examples of this. Yes, *ultra gasp* evolution is no exception and will probably be disproved in due time as will our current perceptions of gravity, time, light...ect. These theories will then be replaced with new and better ones....

Regarding the general consensus in terms of scientific theory, it has only been really good at being wrong. Just because its a "modern scientific era" doesn't make our ideals any more right then all the previous generations before us.

Thing that pisses me off the most is the concept of global warming. Being overly generous, we have 200 years of well collected temperature data. Now... according to all knowing internet, supposedly the earth has been around for 4.2 billion years. If that is true we have verifiable temperature data for .000002% of the planets existence. With that .000002% amount of data we are concluding with 100% certainty that the only logical and rational explanation is that it has to be a result of man made C02.... please shoot me......

ahh well, i'm done with my rant. Science is also a very useful thing. You can't simply dismiss theories since they are probably not 100% correct. "Laws" such as ohms law, may not be perfect, but it sure can give pretty darn good approximations which is good enough for me. =) Just don't have irrational amounts of faith in your current viewpoints and don't get emotional and offended when someone attacks your viewpoints. Be thankful for its an opportunity for both parties involved to learn evolve their beliefs. Hence progress...
 

RA_pierce

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My reasoning behind my opinion oddly comes from hallucinogens. I dont mean out of body experiences, or colorful imagery. These things come from limiting the sensory receptors, and pull from the subconscious, defunct of logic. I'm talking about heightened sensory perception. Where time, physics, logic, and other laws of science do not exists. I've even experienced telepathy, and events that defy coincidence. Sure, you can say "you're on drugs man" but thats where my point comes in. How can you be sure your mind is not the one that is operating in a altered state? You dont have to do drugs to have an altered state. People who are "insane" dont know they are insane. Because of what they perceive to be reality follows all logic and is so strong that there is no doubt in their mind its reality. Which brings me back to my original point...

Edit: I need to change this quote "Where time, physics, logic, and other laws of science do not exist." These do exist, but are not contained by the same rules of the general (for lack of a better word) perception of reality.

I understand what you are saying.
How can we be certain that what we are experiencing is reality?
It's an interesting question and it is interesting to think about.
However, you mention hallucinogens and altered states and "insane" people...

1. The use of drugs, or any "altered" state of mind is... well, altered. So that can be ruled out as reality. A bio-chemical reaction that produces visual hallucinations, suppresses the senses, or enhances them, can't be reality even if it "feels" real. There is science to explain, logically, what effect these substances have on the body.
If you are on a crazy peyote trip are you really contacting the spirit world or are you just trippin' out? What will everyone else who is not on a trip see?

2. "Insanity" (which is not a definitive term in psychology) is definitely not a good basis for establishing reality since that too is not the "normal" state of mind. There are many, many, psychological disorders (have you ever seen the DSM?) and many are associated with abnormal perceptions (note that when discussing "normal" you must first define what "abnormal" is in contrast to "normal"). For example, anorexia nervosa is a common one in american culture. This disorder is characterized by an "incorrect" body image and of course poor diet. Now, would you say that a 20 year old female anorexic at 5'5, 75lbs is "fat?" Certainly not. At that point she is probably almost dead. However, her perception is that she is overweight. So, which is reality? Her perception, or the objective measurement of body fat, weight, and waist size?

So, if we ask, "how can reality exist without subjectivity if everyone experiences/perceives differently," here is what I have to say to that:
In order to ask that question, or to mention perception at all, you are implying that there is something being experienced/perceived. That thing being experienced and perceived is reality. If a colorblind person that cannot differentiate between violet, blue, and cyan sees a 445nm laser, a 405nm laser, and a 473nm laser and says they are all the same color, does that mean that the wavelengths that are entering his/her eye are all the same?

I like the definition Cyparagon provided for us earlier: "the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be."

@Random person:

Nice points...... nothing is more annoying than when people religiously believe in their "scientific" views and are willing to "debate" to insanely illogical and emotional levels. (Christians and atheists alike)

Hang on, there... Insanely illogical? Science is all logic. And religion is not logic at all. If science becomes illogical then it is no longer science. If mathematics was illogical it would be wrong and would then be irrelevant.
If religion was logical, I would believe it. I don't. And that isn't meant as an insult to anyone who is religious. Anyone who believes in some religion also, by default, believes that their deity or deities are not bound by the comprehension and logic of mankind. Religion is supposed to be illogical.
So your statement here is illogical. :D

Also, I like that you say that debate is "annoying" when it is taken to "emotional levels" and then proceed to tell us that global warming pisses you off. :na:

All science is generally dis proven overtime and endless amounts of new theories are then invented. Concepts of gravity, theory of solid state electronics, and the atomic model are examples of this. Yes, *ultra gasp* evolution is no exception and will probably be disproved in due time as will our current perceptions of gravity, time, light...ect. These theories will then be replaced with new and better ones....

Well, theories are not meant to be accepted as "truths."
They are a general explanation of how things work based on observation and experimentation.
The fact that scientific theories can be adjusted and refined is what gets us closer to the truth, not further from it, and that is one of the best things about science. Science is all about questioning what we believe in. Religion is the opposite.
Also, just because we don't fully understand gravity or electromagnetism does not mean that our understanding of them is false, necessarily. Just incomplete. Just because we don't yet know what gravity is does not mean that we have not measured some phenomena that binds the solar system and keeps us on the ground.
 
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Helios

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I could not agree more with your response to random person. I initially wrote a similar response but deleted it for free of starting something.

I would like to add that the comments on evolution and global warming are also quite unsupported in my opinion. Evolution through mutation and natural selection is an observed fact. In the future our understanding of its mechanisms may change but the core will remain. We take advantage of evolution all of the time. Do you own a dog if a cat? Do you ever eat dairy?

As far as global warming they are not relying on just on temperature records. They look at sea levels and the melting of the ice caps. See level data for millions of years are recorded naturally geologicaly. We also can observe the concentrations of gases in the atmosphere. If I put you in a box with a running lawn mower do you really think the concentration of gases would not change? What do you think millions of of vehicles and millions of business millions of factories and millions of homes do?
 




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