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Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlasers

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

ixfd64 said:
Also, I've heard reports that when Dragon Lasers runs out of, say, 95 mW lasers, it'll give 75 mW lasers to those who ordered 95 mW, knowing that most people don't have power meters. If I am correct, that would be a scam.

However, I'd also like to hear DL's side of the story.
Hi Ixrd64.  I found that rumor humorous in its absurdity until people actually believed it. Back when WL first started to feel the pressure from DL, things got a little nasty and either WL or one of their fanboys started a rumor. The essense of the rumor is that a person called DL and spoke to a woman about a certain power lasers. Probably 95mW as you've said. According to the rumor, the woman told the caller that DL ships under spec lasers when the 95mW are out of stock.

Four reasons why that is absurd. Firstly NO company if they did that would casually admit to it when talking to a potential customer. Secondly we do not have any female employees here answering phones and certainly none that are fluent English.  The only people taking international phone calls are myself or a male colleague of mine who is fluent in English. Thirdly at that time (from memory) the phone number was not listed on the website so there is no way a phone call could have been made. Fourthly because of our position in CNI we never run out of stock with standard lasers such as Vipers.

Goes to show that the old adage that if its printed, its true has some substance online.
 

Ashton

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Reading this thread has been very interesting, and I dont know about others, but I'm willing to give DL the benefiet of the doubt. I admit to having been adding to a negative rep, though I stated it was rumor, I had said that DL sold 75mw as 95mw or even 125mw. I also know that WL stoops to new lows every day, starting a rumor would be a downright HONERABLE thing to do compared to their latest tactics discussed elsewher eon this forum.

So maybe I'll be lucky enough to start a trend here. I appoligize to frank and all of DL for any damage I might have done to their reputation with comments I've made accross verious forums and am burrying the hatchet.

That being said, I am not takign sides against pseudo, his reviews and info has been impecable, imo. Company reputation should be dedicated by quality, cost, service, and at the far end, promotions; not by mudslinging (not that sadly, that isn't expected by now from certain sellers like WL...)
 

Hemlock_Mike

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Frank --

I never understood some of this. My DL95 with fresh cells puts out a little over 125 mW and drops as the cells deplete. With new e2 cells, it typically stays over 95 mW for about a minute. I usually need only a few seconds to pop a balloon for someone !! My cells last a long time the way I use it - I like that because e2 cells cost a few $ :(

I have to agree with Pseudo's readings - he does and reports the science but as I've stated here, It's a matter of meeting the buyer's needs and expectations.

Mike
 

zerafiel

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Perhaps Dragonlasers should begin following the example of Novalasers which sells lasers above their specs. This way no customer will ever complain and they will receive much better feedback and more business.

Lately many users of this forums have been purchasing high powered greens from Novalaser and I have been considering a purchase too. Further more their prices are not much higher than yours either.

If their X-85 can average for 90-100mW, that is the equivalent of your Viper 95 of uncertain specification at a much cheaper price point since a few of the units you have shipped out have been noted to be under spec. Even so the benefit of doubt can be given to you about your QC

So to Dragonlasers:
This should be a wakeup call to your company to improve your QC. How much would it cost you to measure the peak and average output and noting it before sending a unit out or even after receiving it from your supplier to ensure that it is not underspec.

As far as Pseudo is concerned, him buying 2 units stealthily for testing seems perfectly reasonable so as to have a random sample of the lasers you send. As to your allegations that his testing may have been biased against you. That is a direct defamation of his character and integrity. If he had tested your units as within specifications, I believe he would have recanted his previous statements about DL scamming people and told others that DL does not sell underspec lasers and maybe promote your company as a reputable laser seller.

As for Pseudo being a competitor, I can understand your concerns since he has also directly defamed your company as scammers.

This incident will leave a bad impression of DL to many people and I think you are taking a step towards correcting that impression but not in the right direction. Your emphasis should be towards providing customers with lasers which are in and above specifications with outstanding quality and customer support. Credit for return shipping of underspec laser would be the first start.

If your products are able to prove themselves, you can then return to tell Pseudo and others here that:
"Hey, you are wrong we do sell lasers which are above specification."
or
"Sorry but our quality control was not up to mark but NOW we have changed and all our lasers are guaranteed to be in or above spec or we will pay for all return shipping costs and offer a upgrade or some minor freebie."

I don't think you are able to make the first statement now since you did test one of your own units as under spec. Can you really say that your company has been selling in spec lasers with those underspec DL reviews floating around?

Your concern should not be competition from Pseudo or his defamation but competition form companies like Novalasers which are selling overspec lasers for cheaper.

Competition means improving products, customer service and reducing prices. Either you do this or risk losing a significant amount of customers and sales to other major laser companies.

Let us know if your company improves its products and customer support and this forum will
definitely wholeheartedly recommend your products to others. Are you up to it?
 
S

SenKat

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

xarylx - Very well written...not slanderous, defaming, etc...just opinions, and well thought out comments.

I am impartial in this "battle" as I have not purchased from Dragon Lasers ever before - and the only real exposure I have had was reviewing one hell of a nice Blue 9mw Aurora laser they loaned me for a few weeks. I think - no...I KNOW it would be to everyone's benefit if Dragon sent out in spec lasers. As a matter of fact, if Wicked could produce what they advertise, they would be a force to be reckoned with, rather than a FARCE to be reckoned with ! Dragon, and the other manufacturers/resellers on this forum have been given just notice - now, granted...sometimes the delivery method of some forum members on here leaves a little to be desired as far as political correctness goes (like I should talk !LOL !!) but the message has been delivered loud and clear. now it is only a matter of time before we see the results - either the companies will have listened, and will try to correct where the issues are - as long as PRIDE (misplaced as it may be, in the case of Wicked) does not get in the way, I think we, as consumers are in for a seeet ride !

Think of it like this - as it stands, there is only a hndful of companies that I personally woudl order from if I were in the market. If EVERYONE of them learned from a few mistakes - either their own, or other's - then WE will benefit. We will see price wars on similiar items of interest, and without the worries of QC being there, it will be fun to see who has the best lasers ! sorry to ramble, folks....
 
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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Hi Xarylx

Thank you for the in depth and well thought out posting. I'll try to briefly cover most of the points you raised.

Above spec lasers
-due to the jumps in power from one level to the next, all our lasers are tested and sold above spec with the Viper 95 being the laser most likely to be over spec.  For example the range of the Viper 95 is basically from 95mW to 124mW so you pay for a 95mW and can end up getting a laser with an average power of any where upto 120-124mW. Normally though you'd end up with around 100mW to 110mW.

-your much less likely to get a 125mW that is over powered simply because these high powers are rare and really pushing the envelope of laser pointer power capacity.

QC
-all lasers are given extensive testing by CNI at our request, we test them on delivery and also test them before shipping. The methods used for every test are thorough and exact. No system or process is perfect though so we are always looking for ways to improve and feed back such as yours is appreciated and taken on board.

Pseudo
-I don't think i have defamed his character or integrity. He has admitted to having a vendetta against Dragonlasers which his previous posts reflect so my criticism is just his ability to provide impartial feedback on Dragonlasers.

Underspec lasers
-Admittedly even with the best QC, customers do sometimes receive underspec lasers. If a Dragonlasers customer find that their laser is under spec. They can ship it back to us and we will upgrade it and return it to the customer free of charge. The only condition is that must be with in 3 months of purchasel.

-We will also provide free testing of ANY non Dragonlaser lasers lasers and free return shipping.


One important note on testing lasers for power is stability. From what i understand talking to our head technician (most of what he says about lasers is technobabble way above my head) is that power levels measured vary depending on laser stability. Bench lasers have are very stable (often with in 5% or less) but portable lasers, especially higher powered  laser pointers have poor stability and may be as bad as 30% or worse.
 
T

timelord

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

All I can say is that Wicked lasers get more complaints/RMA's etc than Dragon Laser do fullstop!!! :) And that is a fact that is reflected throughout all forums including the LC until everyone got banned for speaking out......
 

Thories

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

heh hate to pull this but as people get older they seem to make a fuss.... check outputs if you cannot check what Pseudo said oh well if hes right dragons putting out some under spec stuff. if they know this they should change if they don't the should change this. if Pseudo is wrong well he should insure whatever test results he gives are right. really all that can be done here is treat customers right don't flame and you WILL get repeat customers.
 
Y

yew.sir-name

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Dragonlasers said:
Hi Xarylx


-We will also provide free testing of ANY non Dragonlaser lasers lasers and free return shipping.

You will test anyones laser regardless of brand for free, and return it at your own cost?
 

Gazoo

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Dragonlasers said:
Pseudo
-I don't think i have defamed his character or integrity. He has admitted to having a vendetta against Dragonlasers which his previous posts reflect so my criticism is just his ability to provide impartial feedback on Dragonlasers.
As I recall, you were going to retest the lasers sent back to you..whatever happened with that.. :p
 

a_pyro_is

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

I recall (to lazy to look it up) that you said if you were to post that your lasers were in fact in spec. it wouldn't matter as you could have switched the ones he returned. But wouldn't that be the same as telling us not to trust you?
We can take into account that you are standing here defending your company. I don't think any other company has.
All that to say, post power/time graphs from the 2 returned lasers and let people make a decision based on what they believe your credibility to be.
 

zerafiel

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

Dragonlasers said:
Above spec lasers
-due to the jumps in power from one level to the next, all our lasers are tested and sold above spec with the Viper 95 being the laser most likely to be over spec. For example the range of the Viper 95 is basically from 95mW to 124mW so you pay for a 95mW and can end up getting a laser with an average power of any where upto 120-124mW. Normally though you'd end up with around 100mW to 110mW.
Hemlock Mike has also mentioned in this thread that his Viper 95 peaks at 125mW and averages above 95mW. This is a good indication that your company does indeed sell lasers above specification. Let all readers of this thread note this.

About the rumors that you sell viper75s as viper95s, it might just be a rumor started by other companies. Or it might be that it is a unit in a grey area that barely averages at 95mW and thus slightly weaker than other vip95 units and more comparable to your own vip75s which should average from 75-90mW according to how you grade your lasers.

Dragonlasers said:
-your much less likely to get a 125mW that is over powered simply because these high powers are rare and really pushing the envelope of laser pointer power capacity.

QC
-all lasers are given extensive testing by CNI at our request, we test them on delivery and also test them before shipping. The methods used for every test are thorough and exact. No system or process is perfect though so we are always looking for ways to improve and feed back such as yours is appreciated and taken on board.
This could be a matter of how you grade your lasers. You may want to market a laser as having 125mW but say you know that some of the units you may have on hand are just around the region or slightly under. Most companies would just sell them as 125mW. This is quite fair for them to do so IMO. But that said, companies who actually and consistently provide units averaging over 125mW will earn more business. It is up to how a company wants to sell its product.

I believe you tested one of the units Pseudo returned you at 115mW. Could this be a case where your technicians decided to put it in the 125mW slot instead and hope for the best? But I am not privy to how your company operates. But I believe a company like yours will have a pretty good QC in place and what you mentioned also sounds pretty good as is your desire to improve.
[/quote]

Dragonlasers said:
Pseudo
-I don't think i have defamed his character or integrity. He has admitted to having a vendetta against Dragonlasers which his previous posts reflect so my criticism is just his ability to provide impartial feedback on Dragonlasers.
Alot of forumites here respect Pseudo and and his integrity. He did test both your vip125s at only around 105mW with a 3.1v lab supply. A difference of 20mW is quite a bit. Even if he is undermeasuring by 10mW that is still a 10% error. Perhaps you should also check how you test your lasers and verify them with a known well calibrated outside source and retest those 2 units like you promised. Just check a few other units to see if your laser meters are overmeasuring outputs.

From your perspective, his impartiality may be questionable since you are under attack here, but I'd suggest you take a step back on this issue and accept his results. Accepting being called a scammer is an entirely different issue though.

Dragonlasers said:
Underspec lasers
-Admittedly even with the best QC, customers do sometimes receive underspec lasers. If a Dragonlasers customer find that their laser is under spec. They can ship it back to us and we will upgrade it and return it to the customer free of charge. The only condition is that must be with in 3 months of purchasel.
Is this a new policy? It sounds very generous if it also includes the cost of shipping the underspec laser back to you. 3 months is a good period but some people prefer a longer warranty period of 6 months considering the sensitive nature of these devices.

Just make sure dissatisfied customers don't take advantage of it. People who return a laser just because they got bored should pay for their own shipping and a restocking fee to boot.

-We will also provide free testing of ANY non Dragonlaser lasers lasers and free return shipping.
This sounds like a weird policy to have. I don't think people will want to ship all the way to china and back just to test their lasers.


Overall, it is good to see Dragonlasers taking the initiative to talk to us in a professional manner even if they only began by trying to save their reputation from going down the drain. Unlike some other companies who just keep mum and continue with their under/overhanded ways and rip off the casual buyer.

Quite a number of people have poor impressions of chinese companies and their business practices and automatically equate them as scammers. I hate this impression and would like to correct it. I love DX even with their lousy QC.

Besides, I don't think scamming companies would bother to come by a forum to defend themselves. They still earn their money anyway ripping off the unwary. You don't see zonestealth dropping by do you?

Another simple step Dragonlasers could take is offer a discount code for lpf members. A simple 5-10% will get you listed on our Laser Discounts thread and earn the favor of customers. Selling more units at say $5-10 less will net more profit than selling less at full price. And with each unit sold here, you are almost guaranteed to get a "telling" review of how people love or hate their dragonlaser, how it performs and the customer service they got. If your products hold their own, you have a cascading effect of sales. You can see for yourself how well this has worked out recently for another company.

I hope to see Dragonlasers make it to LPF's recommended list in the future
 

marianne

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

xarylx said:
Besides, I don't think scamming companies would bother to come by a forum to defend themselves. They still earn their money anyway ripping off the unwary. You don't see zonestealth dropping by do you?
actually, techlasers and thinklasers (both big big scammers) have both attempted to come here and defend themselves, so it does happen :) though i'm not implying dragon lasers are scammers, just pointing out a flaw with one part of your post :)
 

zerafiel

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

But I don't think they lasted very long. Are they still around? Scammers, I think, generally would have the decency to feel uncomfortable knowing that they are scamming people AND trying to defend themselves consistently.

I'd like to give this company the benefit of doubt. How long he sticks around and how he responds to our own responses will be a good indication of whether the company can generally be trusted.

Do you think Dragonlasers could or would continue(if they ever did before) scamming people on this forum who do have access to laser meters. It wouldn't last. Not if they promise free shipping both ways plus an upgrade for receiving underspec lasers. That is a sign that they are willing to be a trusted company. It is easy to be cynical and think this defense is just a facade. Their reputation and a portion of their customer base is at stake after all. But they have a business to run and Pseudo's test exposed something some issues with the company.

Besides, it takes both parties to establish a good business/consumer relationship. If we keep bashing them, they will just get irritated, pack up and leave to continue scamming others. Just look at Wicked Lasers. We bash them so much, they just ban people and continue to have a huge fan base who think they are the BEST producer of high powered lasers in the universe and sit back to enjoy the money rolling in. Wicked Lasers do some things really well. I, for one, am not glad to see them going the way they are or all the venom against them here.

I feel that I keep repeating myself so I shall stop ranting here. Anyway I am not affliated to DL nor have they offered me any bribes for all the cynical souls out there.

In my earlier post I asked if they were up to it. But the same can be asked of us: Are we up to it?
 

ngiapy

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Re: Pseudonomen137 & the defamation of Dragonlaser

sorry to dig this up, but i was wondering if dragonlasers is still sticking around, and the outcome of this dispute.
 




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