My laser device

[rhd]

I can't understand the mentality of some of the Forum
community (as I've seen many times on the Forum before)
to feel that they are entitled to get everything at bare material
costs. There are many other non seen... but obviously there...
costs to putting a product on the market.

I realize that you didn't have the benefit of reading my thread before posting this comment (given that our posts showed up seconds apart).

But as mentioned - that's not what's going on here. I think he has a cool idea. I also think his cool idea will fail miserably if he doesn't re-think his cost and pricing approach.

I'm trying to help. I don't think the OP gets that. I also don't think he has any sense as to what he's buying.

 

[lasersbee]

I realize that you didn't have the benefit of reading my thread before posting this comment (given that our posts showed up seconds apart).

But as mentioned - that's not what's going on here. I think he has a cool idea. I also think his cool idea will fail miserably if he doesn't re-think his cost and pricing approach.

I'm trying to help. I don't think the OP gets that. I also don't think he has any sense as to what he's buying.

Well the way I see it.... That's his problem if he
doesn't see it...
BTW... what Thread would that be...:thinking:


Jerry

 

[rhd]

Well the way I see it.... That's his problem if he
doesn't see it...


Jerry

Yes. You're right. I'll give you that.

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

If it took me 15 hours to build... the labor costs alone
would be $1650.00. Luckily I don't need to add $150/hr
R&D costs to that...

I don't really see a problem for him to sell this unique item
at ANY price he wants.
The marketplace will let him know if the price is too high
or not by the sales alone.

I can't understand the mentality of some of the Forum
community (as I've seen many times on the Forum before)
to feel that they are entitled to get everything at bare material
costs. There are many other non seen... but obviously there...
costs to putting a product on the market.

I personally don't want one so I just go elsewhere for my
needs rather than complaining and needing a detailed account
of every last cent of the selling price... (which IMO is no-one's
business but the seller)...


Jerry

Refer to posts 25 and 27... I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything, are we?

I just think that if these take 15 hours to build, cost $300 in parts, sell for $899 and bring in only ~10% in profit... something is very very off and needs to be adjusted. I want this idea/concept/product to succeed, but in it's present state, I don't think it can.

 

[lasersbee]

Refer to posts 25 and 27... I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything, are we?

I just think that if these take 15 hours to build, cost $300 in parts, sell for $899 and bring in only ~10% in profit... something is very very off and needs to be adjusted. I want this idea/concept/product to succeed, but in it's present state, I don't think it can.

Refer to post #34.....

Not my problem if someone wants to do it his way...


Jerry

 

[Ablaze]

While the lasers may be the single largest cost, they are not the only part.

Yes, I have emailed bob before. That's what makes me wonder where you get your $8 laser module cost from. Here's a quote from bob:

Pls find as follow,
Item Name: 532nm Green Dot Laser Module
Laser Size: 12*55mm
Unit Price: 5mw USD15/pcs MOQ: 100pcs
10mw USD17.7/pcs MOQ: 100pcs

So, that's $150 in lasers.. but wait, there's shipping and stuff.. so we're at nearly $200 already using your link. What about gloves, wire, battery packs, straps, and plugs?

 

[GoldPunch]

Nice idea. Thanks for video

 

[Ablaze]

Thanks Gold

Thanks for the defense laserbee. Sorry I got defensive rhd. I haven't really gone over the features point for point in this thread, so you probably don't realize all the durability and all the different parts that have gone into these. I'll try to put a better demo together soon.

 

[Ablaze]

You can say "Hey, I'm using an under-driven IR diode, and larger than necessary crystals in my DPSS modules, with protected lithium ions" and forum members might say "Great! That's a lot better than direct driving some cheap red diodes with a resistor and NiMH batteries!"

I've been wondering.. what makes you think that LiOn would be better than NiMh in this case? The possibility of explosion, for me, is a huge turn off for LiOn, and I would never consider using them for any product you would wear. Using LiOn batteries is one of the many mistakes that people make when trying to build something like this for the first time.

NiMh are far more reliable when exposed to environmental stress, and I am using 2300mah low self discharge cells. From what I can see these actually have a higher mah rating then those LiOn cells that are so popular here.

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

Quality LiOn cells offer more in a smaller package.

All the cases where there was a problem with a LiOn battery I read about, involve either severe physical abuse, or very low quality cells.

Correct me if I'm wrong

Btw, where/how do you store the battery packs? I assumed they would be in a forearm sleeve...

 

[rhd]

I've been wondering.. what makes you think that LiOn would be better than NiMh in this case? The possibility of explosion, for me, is a huge turn off for LiOn, and I would never consider using them for any product you would wear. Using LiOn batteries is one of the many mistakes that people make when trying to build something like this for the first time.

NiMh are far more reliable when exposed to environmental stress, and I am using 2300mah low self discharge cells. From what I can see these actually have a higher mah rating then those LiOn cells that are so popular here.

Lol, of course NiMh has a higher mAh than lithium-ion. Think about that for a second....

....they're 1.2V!

Heck, a nickel–cadmium cell probably has a higher mAh than a lithium-ion of the same size

 

[Ablaze]

Quality LiOn cells offer more in a smaller package.

All the cases where there was a problem with a LiOn battery I read about, involve either severe physical abuse, or very low quality cells.

Correct me if I'm wrong

Btw, where/how do you store the battery packs? I assumed they would be in a forearm sleeve...

Absolutely, LiOn are smaller. They are also a lot more caustic on the environment to produce. With the new low self discharge NiMh technology the charging profile is pretty similar to the LiOns

I have a friend who attempted to build a set of laser gloves using LiOn batteries. He had them in his pocket and they exploded there while he was using them. It destroyed his shiny pants and burned him a bit. I'm sure it was a "perfect storm" of high body temperature + sweat + high drain, but it wasn't outside of the range of "typical use." Exploding batteries are nothing I want to be responsible for. "In the pocket" is a FAR more hostile environment to electronics and batteries then "in a flashlight-like enclosure."

My battery packs fit on the wrist just behind the glove in an mp3 player case. I am still trying to find the right case for the right price, which is one of the reasons I haven't released these for sale yet.

 

[rhd]

Absolutely, LiOn are smaller. They are also a lot more caustic on the environment to produce. With the new low self discharge NiMh technology the charging profile is pretty similar to the LiOns

I have a friend who attempted to build a set of laser gloves using LiOn batteries. He had them in his pocket and they exploded there while he was using them. It destroyed his shiny pants and burned him a bit. I'm sure it was a "perfect storm" of high body temperature + sweat + high drain, but it wasn't outside of the range of "typical use." Exploding batteries are nothing I want to be responsible for. "In the pocket" is a FAR more hostile environment to electronics and batteries then "in a flashlight-like enclosure."

First off, lithium-ions are the least toxic to the environment of the rechargeable cell types. Nickel based cells are worse than li-ions in this respect. The only environmentally safer of the common cell chemistries, is basic alkaline - which of course looses this claim to fame since they're not generally rechargeable (and thus actually less environmentally friendly).

Second, there's an obvious safety question mark around lithium ions. However, I seriously question your friend's situation - specifically, whether he knew what the hell he was doing when he built his gloves. I also question this "perfect storm" of temperature/sweat/high drain.

For one, if your friend's body temperature was high enough to cause problems for a lithium battery - well, he would have perished long before the batteries.

And sweat? If there was enough sweat on those lithium ion cells to cause a problem for them, then I'd say they were far outside of what anyone could conside "typical use". In what scenario would properly utilized lithium-ion cells be allowed contact with your body sweat?

And high drain? Why were these cells discharged at higher than their safe discharge current?

In other words, this sounds like a design flaw, not a lithium-ion problem. The fact that your friend's setup was susceptible to all of these issues in the first place, tells me that he probably shouldn't have been designing laser gloves

You're running 5 lasers per glove. They're 5mW 532s, implying an IR diode of maybe 50 to 100mW, and I'm guessing somewhere around 100mA per module through a linear driver. That's a total current load of 500mA per glove. With a single 18650 protected cell, in a proper housing to shield it from the elements, attached to an arm band, you could power those 5 lasers for 4 or 5 hours without ever subjecting the li-ions to unsafe operating conditions.

 

[Ablaze]

I seriously question your friend's situation
..
this sounds like a design flaw, not a lithium-ion problem. The fact that your friend's setup was susceptible to all of these issues in the first place, tells me that he probably shouldn't have been designing laser gloves

You're running 5 lasers per glove. They're 5mW 532s, implying an IR diode of maybe 50 to 100mW, and I'm guessing somewhere around 100mA per module through a linear driver. That's a total current load of 500mA per glove. With a single 18650 protected cell, in a proper housing to shield it from the elements, attached to an arm band, you could power those 5 lasers for 4 or 5 hours without ever subjecting the li-ions to unsafe operating conditions.

There may have been a wiring fault.. there may have been all kinds of things. To me it doesn't matter. I could use LiOns and put in safety features but the environment is just too chaotic. I would not feel safe strapping a grenade to my wrist and running around in a party, even if the safety pen had been welded in.

really, at just triple the size the mah of the pack is 2300. It's still not very large.. I've considered using 6 cells just to double battery life.

I'm not sure about your math, but current draw per module is 275mA. Theoretical battery life is ~2 hours. Actual battery life is closer to 1 hour of continuous use since when battery power starts to decline some lasers go out before others, and that's just annoying.

 

[rhd]

There may have been a wiring fault.. there may have been all kinds of things. To me it doesn't matter. I could use LiOns and put in safety features but the environment is just too chaotic. I would not feel safe strapping a grenade to my wrist and running around in a party, even if the safety pen had been welded in.

really, at just triple the size the mah of the pack is 2300. It's still not very large.. I've considered using 6 cells just to double battery life.

I'm not sure about your math, but current draw per module is 275mA. Theoretical battery life is ~2 hours. Actual battery life is closer to 1 hour of continuous use since when battery power starts to decline some lasers go out before others, and that's just annoying.

At 275mA of draw, assuming 3V to 3.6V, that's an input of ~1,000 mW to get 5mW of 532nm output. That's pretty inefficient for a DPSS module, but I suppose that's within the realm of possibility. I know DPSS can be pretty inefficient in some modules.

That said, I'm sure that on a Saturday night, the total volume of lithium ion batteries in any given club, is exceeded only by the volume of alcohol consumer. That is to say, we carry crap loads of lithium ion around with us constantly. While you may not want "strap a lithium ion grenade" to someone's wrist, lets not pretend that every single person in that room doesn't already have two in their pocket or purse (between cell phones, cameras, iPods, etc). Somehow HTC isn't dying from lawsuits over the lithium ion "hand grenades" they strap to all their cell phones entering dangerous discotheques

I'm pretty sure you'd be A-OK just designing your glove to use a protected cell. Nothing fancy or complicated for you to worry about. Case closed

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

Well... I'm certainly late to the argument... same as rhd I don't see too much danger from using lion batteries.

Especially if you go the extra mile, use a high quality protected battery, and have it encased in a rigid shell.