Laser powered razor

[Atomicrox]

For the sake of this discussion let's asssume the thing works and is eye-safe.

Up to now I haven't seen anyone state a good reason why this wouldn't smell of burning hair. They have promised this and IMHO there's no way they can deliver without seriously compromising performance.

And they're almost at 3M bucks.

If I had to bet I'd bet people will get really mad when (if) it gets delivered.


Edit:
Also if they're so sure it works wouldn't it be more decent to pay the 160k of the original goal and have the proper fiber manufactured? If the guy invented IPL he surely has the money or the means to get it, and if it works he WILL get rich because of this. I think he went with kickstarter precisely because he's not sure and prefers to bet someone else's money.

 

[Cyparagon]

How is it hair spoils the TIR but skin, shaving cream, face oils, and water doesn't? What about the melted/burned hair that remains on the fiber? That doesn't damage it, vastly decrease performance, or lead to overheating?

 

[olympus mons]

I donated 600$ on a handheld spectrometer close to 2 years ago now. The company raised at the time a record 10 million dollars or something around that. It was supposed to change the world and could give a reading of any known molecules in their data base in seconds. All in a small handheld device much like that scanner thing in startrek.
I'll never donate to a a kickstarter again after that though. Doubt we'll ever see our unit. 3 friends of mine and myself split the cost. At the time we were living in the Peruvian Amazon working on a project with another forum in conjunction with M.A.P.S. We helped with identifying yet undiscovered psychoactive alkaloids and compounds found in harmalas, carbolines, beta carboline and tryptamines in different Amazonian plants used for making ayahuasca. This little tool would have been a real help but the project has long since finished but we identified a few new alkaloids not yet known. Pretty cool for basement pharmacology enthusiasts.

But I am skeptical of this razor and many other Kikstarters after that.

 

[TaterMay]

Until now, Not a single one of you has shown a clue in how it really works.

A optical fiber with a very critical diameter has laser light circulating inside in a resonant mode. When a hair hits the side of the fiber, light is coupled out of the fiber into the hair. The wavelength is chosen to match an adsorption peak of a protein common to all hair... It more or less undergoes a chemical breakdown as well as melts. If there is no hair or "biocrud" in contact with the fiber, there is little or no scatter out of the system.

So the fiber TIR is spoiled at the point of contact, then an evanescent wave can be coupled into the hair from the cladding...

In another part of the net, more concentrated on physics, the company is answering our questions and has provided another video.

Guess what, it CAN work under the right circumstances... They are not "there" yet, but at least they are trying, and its very likely NOT a fraud.

If inventors only went after what they were one hundred per cent sure would work, this world would be a very boring place.
Some very skilled people with a track record in the skin resurfacing business are TRYING something new.


An AA Disposable Lithium Cell has enough power for up to a few hours of useful work if the electronics are designed well. We did the math on the other forum, too. Its marginal, but doable.

Honestly the big trick is drawing the fiber to the right diameter and mounting it properly. The rest is straight out of a college optics textbook.

PS, its easy to detect if the fiber breaks and shut down the laser. Its also fairly easy to detect if the fiber has contacted a hair or skin,, and gate power accordingly.

Steve

I'd give you +100 rep if I could. I saw this on Kickstarter this morning, and came here to see if LPF had been discussing it yet. I was incredibly surprised to find so many LPFers so eager to scream "this is a fraud". You know what it reminds me of? This guy who messaged me the other day who, just because he had essentially no knowledge of lasers, had made up his mind that my 7 watt NUBM44 build could not burn a small steel spring in half, even though he watched the video on YouTube. He also thought that a Wicked Lasers Spyder 2W was magically more powerful than my 7W. This is precisely why I do plenty of research before speaking on a subject, especially a technology which I don't know much about(I did a small amount of work with ambient interior lighting via fiber optics when I interned at Mercedes-Benz in college, but that's about the extent of my fiber optics experience).

I'm not saying this will be a huge success, and I'm not saying I know this works. I am very much a skeptic myself, mostly because of the vast amount of actual frauds in the world. But being a skeptic just to disprove someone and being a skeptic to find out the truth are most certainly not the same.

I am simply saying that these guys are attempting to create something new that COULD benefit a lot of people and potentially reduce our ever-growing amount of human waste. Why not wait until we understand the technologies that they are using a little more, and actually see some evidence for or against it, to put them on blast? I guess this is just one of the last places I expected to find so many blasting something that they don't really know.

Anyways, I'm eager to see the progress of this. If it works, this will be quite huge. I mean no offense to anyone who doubts this product. Just want to see some more open minds here. :beer:

 

[Atomicrox]

Simply because they're taking 3 MILLION dollars out of naive investors in order to attempt to produce something which, at best, will:
-Smell of burnt hair
-Shave slowly
-Have a short life due to crap getting stuck to the fiber

And they're doing so based on misinformation, not to mention they are violating KS's rules by not showing a working prototype.


I'd love to be proven wrong. Hell, I'd certainly buy one myself.

 

[TaterMay]

For the sake of this discussion let's asssume the thing works and is eye-safe.

Up to now I haven't seen anyone state a good reason why this wouldn't smell of burning hair. They have promised this and IMHO there's no way they can deliver without seriously compromising performance.

And they're almost at 3M bucks.

If I had to bet I'd bet people will get really mad when (if) it gets delivered.


Edit:
Also if they're so sure it works wouldn't it be more decent to pay the 160k of the original goal and have the proper fiber manufactured? If the guy invented IPL he surely has the money or the means to get it, and if it works he WILL get rich because of this. I think he went with kickstarter precisely because he's not sure and prefers to bet someone else's money.

Purely a guess on my part, but maybe the actual "cutting" edge is so small that it only burns a miniscule amount of hair, which isn't enough to create a detectable smell? Again, only a guess.

But they did say that it "doesn't actually burn the hair", didn't they?

How is it hair spoils the TIR but skin, shaving cream, face oils, and water doesn't? What about the melted/burned hair that remains on the fiber? That doesn't damage it, vastly decrease performance, or lead to overheating?

As for stuff sticking to the fiber, maybe some type of coating that prevents it? I realize it would have to be something that wouldn't interfere with the light, but maybe they've used something compatible. Who knows. I'm just eager to see if it ends up successful.

I mean, I use an electric razor, so I will almost certainly never own one. But I did have to buy my wife some razors at the store the other day, and those things are stupid expensive. Maybe it will save me some money that way. Lol.

 

[Atomicrox]

Purely a guess on my part, but maybe the actual "cutting" edge is so small that it only burns a miniscule amount of hair, which isn't enough to create a detectable smell? Again, only a guess.

But they did say that it "doesn't actually burn the hair", didn't they?

And what would the alternative be? Sending it to the same place stage magicians send their rabbits when they go inside the hat?

Both of the videos they posted show the hair being burned. The first video (without the green laser filter) even shows some smoke.

 

[TaterMay]

Simply because they're taking 3 MILLION dollars out of naive investors in order to attempt to produce something which, at best, will:
-Smell of burnt hair
-Shave slowly
-Have a short life due to crap getting stuck to the fiber

And they're doing so based on misinformation, not to mention they are violating KS's rules by not showing a working prototype.


I'd love to be proven wrong. Hell, I'd certainly buy one myself.

Can you prove that what you just said is the absolute best that they could possibly achieve? Are you more experienced in fiber optics or laser skin/hair treatment than they are? I'm with you on being skeptical. What I'm not with you on is making statements like 'The best they could POSSIBLY do is create a crap product that everyone will hate' without having some actual evidence to back it up.

The only one I've seen who has actually provided some insight into the methods that these guys are attempting to use is LSRFAQ. Everyone else is essentially saying "it doesn't fit what I've seen before, so it can't work." We don't know everything about the product at this point, so how can you say with any certainty that that is the best they could possibly end up with?

And what would the alternative be? Sending it to the same place stage magicians send their rabbits when they go inside the hat?

Both of the videos they posted show the hair being burned. The first video (without the green laser filter) even shows some smoke.

I'm with you on the first part. It's a laser, therefore, it burns. Period.

But I didn't see any smoke in the demo video. It was slow, yes, but I didn't see any smoke, did you?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving/posts/1364296

 

[Atomicrox]

They're the ones making extraordinary claims. They should have to prove it, not me. You don't go around asking people to prove santa claus doesn't exist, do you?

If I made a topic saying I found a 1W 580nm diode with 50% efficiency would you believe me?

Do you know those guys? Are they even that successful? The one they claim invented IPL doesn't even have a wikipedia page...

If I were the one raising money I'd answer the technical questions and post a proper video of a prototype. The fact they're unwilling to do that is at least strange. The claims of IP leak are (mostly) bullshit, since they already have the patent.


Edit: if you want evidence look at their videos. On the first there's smoke coming from the hair and the guy is using laser goggles. On the other it takes ages to burn a few strands.

 

[crazyspaz]

I guess we will see. I am staying on the "this is bullshit" side.

 

[gozert]

I doubt they would've taken it to Kickstarter if they were certain it'll work. Any big company is free to take their idea, improve it and mass produce it before they get the chance themselves. And I'm sure they're not the first to think of this nor the first developing a "prototype". If I had developed a product like this and knew it would work, then I'd work out a deal with a major company, something like Gilette for example, instead of putting it on the internet trying to raise money for it.

I guess we will see. I am staying on the "this is bullshit" side.

Agreed.

 

[Encap]

I doubt they would've taken it to Kickstarter if they were certain it'll work. Any big company is free to take their idea, improve it and mass produce it before they get the chance themselves. And I'm sure they're not the first to think of this nor the first developing a "prototype". If I had developed a product like this and knew it would work, then I'd work out a deal with a major company, something like Gilette for example, instead of putting it on the internet trying to raise money for it.

I agree , gozert.

These guys are up to $3,278,596 as of today with 14 days left to go.

Of course all of it is very suspect---all they have is an idea and apparently no way of protecting any claimed final product or the technology employed --everything must remain a secret so others don't beat them to it etc.

Just the approvals needed to be able to offer it for sale to the public, if they actually had something to sell, raise a lot of questions. So far all it is wild claims, smoke and mirrors--otherwise no need for kickstarter.

A mock-up with a fiber that can burn a hair is hardly a functional "razor" in the real world.

 

[AAlasers]

I'm siding with LSRFAQ on this one.
One could easily avoid >95% of the organic extraneous material that would contaminate the fiber, by using a ~50 micron buffer, which if you look closely at the razor in the video, it is there. Further, the smell wouldn't be present if: the actual site of burning was incredibly small, due to high energy density in the fiber, or, if the process of cutting the hair involved photon-induced chemical breakdown as opposed to actual vaporization. I suspect they're using something similar to a miniaturized unit like this:

Laser Diode 1550nm 1310 Dual Wavelength High Stability Laser Module | eBay

With a strong possibility of being modulated for pulses, instead of CW.

If one makes all of the assumptions I just did, an efficient razor isn't out of the question at all. Q-Switched miniaturized bi-wavelength modules are likely ideal for this, because of the differing effect the wavelengths have on a singular protein. This could theoretically produce a molecular stress, and the deep-IR colour might indicate they are using lasers of this spectrum.

People are very quick to dismiss something like this as being real, but the consequences for their non-deliverance in this campaign are very real and can result in prison sentences. The most that they could legally do, is delay production, and even that would ruin their credibility. Scams do occur, yes. But the science behind this is absolutely plausible.

It's also possible this is a sophisticated scam, but I somehow have trouble believing that, as the science & consequences both exist.

AAlasers

 

[Atomicrox]

If they're using some sort of chemical breakdown why is there smoke on the first video?
How much power would be needed for that sort of process?

There are no consequences if they deliver a crappy product. TBH I don't think there are consequences even if they don't deliver. That happens all the time with kickstarter.

 

[Encap]

There are no consequences if they deliver a crappy product. TBH I don't think there are consequences even if they don't deliver. That happens all the time with kickstarter.

Exactly Atomicrox! Out of $1,986,352,026 total dollars pledged to Kickstarter projects and 93,449 succeffully funded projects, can anyone name anything ever funded by Kickstarter that has amounted to anything other than $s to the project creators and to Kickstarter itself?

Kickstarter says on their web site " We welcome and support projects in the diverse categories of Art, Comics, Crafts, Dance, Design, Fashion, Film & Video, Food, Games, Journalism, Music, Photography, Publishing, Technology, and Theater." " Backers are folks who pledge money to join creators in bringing projects to life." " Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work, and Kickstarter cannot be used to offer equity, financial returns, or to solicit loans" Did you catch that last sentence?

As Kickstarter says: "If your project is successfully funded, the following fees will be collected from your funding total: Kickstarter's 5% fee, and payment processing fees (between 3% and 5%). If funding isn't successful, there are no fees."

Let's see 5% of each $1 million pledged free and clear--wow Kickstarter is not doing bad for a few days work to post someone's idea on a web site! In the case of this razor idea whether it can ever work or not that is 5% of $3,364,825 with 14 days left to go!

Have a look at: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=footer

 

[Atomicrox]

Here's from their terms of use:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.

The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

Creators only have to make up an explanation and refund remaning funds (i.e. they can spend everything and avoid refunding a penny).