Infrared Lasers: Do They All Burn?

[bennett326]

It looks like TheTesla, bennitt, and ARG are all in some sort of troll club. They've all given each other upvotes for their troll posts in this thread, presumably in some kind of attempt to be able to downvote me again.

People like that make it difficult to do anything useful around here.

pot call the kettle black eh?

hahah correcting you with a few jokes isnt trolling its having some fun while being helpful.

also you neg repping me on the nicest post in a thread because, i didnt agree with you is trolling

also check the thing above my avatar it says bennett

also not true i gave them rep for correcting you on something you got wrong also i repped them for not complaining about everything like some people enjoy doing


im not commenting back anymore unless i need to correct something i dont need to get into a internet fight i have better things to do. but expect people to correct you on false info..

 

[sopark4000]

pot call the kettle black eh?

hahah correcting you with a few jokes isnt trolling its having some fun while being helpful.

also you neg repping me on the nicest post in a thread because, i didnt agree with you is trolling

also check the thing above my avatar it says bennett

also not true i gave them rep for correcting you on something you got wrong also i repped them for not complaining about everything like some people enjoy doing


im not commenting back anymore unless i need to correct something i dont need to get into a internet fight i have better things to do. but expect people to correct you on false info..

Thats funny because last time I told someone to learn how to take a joke you neg repped me. Heres ablaze going above and beyond to help explain things to a new member and what do you do? You troll him with unhelpful comments and sarcasm. Normally I wouldn't care but considering you've neg repped several other people for doing what you did. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING HELPFUL TO BRING TO THE TABLE THAN DON'T SIT DOWN.

 

[BrittanyGulden]

C'mon guys, leave that amongst yourselves.

Thanks

 

[bennett326]

Thats funny because last time I told someone to learn how to take a joke you neg repped me. Heres ablaze going above and beyond to help explain things to a new member and what do you do? You troll him with unhelpful comments and sarcasm. Normally I wouldn't care but considering you've neg repped several other people for doing what you did. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING HELPFUL TO BRING TO THE TABLE THAN DON'T SIT DOWN.

I don't recall you contributing to that thread I recall you trollin a 13 year old kid and bobhaha

I contributed by saying 1064nm isn't a color and we all know its not the cheapest per mW

I called him out for negging me becuase I like cyp

So your wrong bud have a nice day :beer:
@Brittany sorry I'm done unless someone else attacks me with false info

 

[Sigurthr]

So the device that is in Camera's that allows for IR is the CCD? So in theory, I could slap a CCD onto my either end of my Rifle Scope and that would allow IR?

I am not sure if you understand what I am getting at, but it would be really convenient if I could just use the scope I already have & acquire a CCD & mount it to my scope & use that instead of buying a Camera and going that route. However, my scope is NOT digital so I am not sure if that work or not. I am not sure how my Scope matched W/ a CCD would "Re transmit" to view IR.

Right, the actual part of the digitial camera that physically takes the pictures is what sees the IR light. Unfortunately digital devices do not work in a modular manner. What this means is that one part of them will not work without the whole of the device backing it up. You can't just take a CCD chip and have it function without every other part that makes the camera a working device.

I understand the whole "IR ordeal now." Here is the problem, The guy that did the tutorial on "How to use camera to see Night Vision" SHOULD HAVE re-labeled his title to something else. Let me elaborate, basically what he was doing was showing people how to take a camera apart & modify it so when you took pictures in the DAYLIGHT they would show up like they were taken at NIGHT. That guy NEEDS to re-title his tutorial to something like "how to modify camera so when you take pictures in the day, they show up like you took them at night (like nightvision).

See the difference? His application was taking pictures in the Daytime but having the images show up like you took them at night. My application is totally different.

Exactly, yes.

Infinity? Not sure what you mean by that.

It is a term to describe how something is focused. You can focus to a distance (whatever at that spot, that far away, is in focus) or focus to infinity which just means that there is no set focal point, or the focal point is farther than you can see. When applied to a laser, it means the beam does not turn into a tiny spot at some distance, but instead stays a beam as long as possible. All laser beams do spread out gradually as ditance increases though.

Hold up, not a laser? What do you mean by the term "Laser." Let me elaborate, in the past I have been using a combination of MANY LED lights. Problem was distance, it was only good for short range. Than I started to use reflectors from various flashlights to try and "beam" out the light farther. Well, bottom line is having 100+ LED's & reflectors mounted off my scope just isn't practical. So, I need something to "beam" out there farther to illuminate.

So an IR laser correct? But you are saying, no not a laser? So you are just saying a I need a more powerful Diode? I thought that's what a laser was? Or is a "laser" a term to describe the focus?

I am using the term "laser" as a way to illuminate, not beam. Maybe I should have said, "I need a more powerful illuminator so I should look into a more powerful *diode*." Correct?

Yes, you weren't using the term laser correctly, but a laser will indeed do what you want (beam out farther). What I was getting at was not that a laser is no good for this, but that you would need TWO lasers (1 to beam a diverged spot, and one for cross hairs), or 1 laser and 1 "throw type" IR LED light. You need to be able to see both the scenery and a targeting reticle (cross hairs).

A laser is a special kind of light source where the light generated behaves differently than all other sources of light. The specifics of that aren't important for your application, but I do suggest reading up on it when you can.

Yes, however, so WHY did they come up with IIT's when you could just use a powerful IR laser Illuminator as a light source?

From my understanding is that IIT's can *amplifer* better and I believe with the new Generation 4 NV they have out now, you DO NOT need a natural light source like starlight/moonlight while with IR you NEED a natural light source.

I still don't understand what's the whole big deal with IIT's when you could just with an IR laser illuminator.


Not sure if you seen my earlier thread, but really why is this? Is it because of the whole "I see you, but you can't see me, oh wait, sh*t, you can see me" thing?

Meaning with an IIT, you can use one witout anyone being able to pick it up with their device while with IR you are can't go "undetected"

But I guess in my application, I could care less, I dont think any coyotes are guna be runnin around with IIT devices lol. Maybe raccoons, they have the face of a bandit!

IITs were developed and are used in applications where the device needs to function in an almost completely lightless environment and without any source of light being generated by the device that they are being installed in. For example in a high end night vision scope, it will work whether there is an IR illuminator or not.

The thing about IITs is that they are like CCDs; you can't JUST have that without everything else and expect it to work. If you wanted to do your project with an IIT you would also need the special optics and electronics that power the IIR (high voltage if I remember correctly) as well as the phosphor screen that the IIT projects the image on to, and the special optics that let you see and focus the phosphor screen.

Your application is to basically build the equivalent of a night vision scope, correct? The simplest way to do that is to use a Digital camera (one without an IR filter) that has zoom, a powerful IR illuminator (can be a spread out laser beam, or an IR LED spotlight), and an IR laser with a crosshair generating optic. The only other way to accomplish your application is to actually build a real night vision gun scope. It would cost you more money in parts than it would to buy a scope in a store. I picked a night vision monocle up for about $100 about 7 years ago.

(for those following the thread, mine uses an 808nm LED illuminator, and I can see the red light from it about 200ft away (not reflected, but if I set it down and look at it from afar).

Here's how it works:

1) the digital camera sees IR and changes it to visible light that you can see on the LCD viewing screen.

2) the IR illuminator projects a beam/spot of IR light that lights up the scene so only the camera can see it. This illuminator doesn't have to be attached to your rifle, it can be mounted on a pole or tree. An IR laser with a spread out beam (adjustable focus) would let you choose where (how far out) the spot goes, and what size it is when it gets there. Without this the camera won't really see anything as it isn't sensitive enough to light (any light).

3) your targetting IR laser with crosshairs gets mounted to your rifle and lets you know where you are aiming your gun. the crosshairs show up on the camera as a bright set of intersecting lines.

You would still need to hide the light coming off of the camera's lcd screen, as it would give away your position. You could lay a tarp or blanket over your head, the camera, and the butt and lower barrel of your rifle to accomplish this.

----

Also, about your original question of why the millitary uses green; the human eye is most sensitive to the color green. So you can use far less light and still have it be seen if you use green. That is why night vision scopes have screens which are green. The phosphor screen on a night vision scope doesn't give off much light at all, but since it is green it is still able to be seen easily.

----

In my honest opinion, if I were you; I would just buy a nice rifle mount night vision scope and then worry about getting an IR laser(s) to use with it. You will get much much better results and you would need a lot less expensive laser(s). With a store bought scope you could probably use a 200mW illuminating IR Laser and project your spot out as wide or narrow as you like, farther than your eye can see. You wouldn't even need a targetting laser then since the rifle scope has reticles installed.

I wouldn't try to use something instead of a store bought night vision scope unless I REALLY had to.

 

[Ablaze]

So the device that is in Camera's that allows for IR is the CCD? So in theory, I could slap a CCD onto my either end of my Rifle Scope and that would allow IR?

You would need a display screen and some electronics to interpret it.

I am not sure if you understand what I am getting at, but it would be really convenient if I could just use the scope I already have & acquire a CCD & mount it to my scope & use that instead of buying a Camera and going that route. However, my scope is NOT digital so I am not sure if that work or not. I am not sure how my Scope matched W/ a CCD would "Re transmit" to view IR.

That would be a night vision scope, which exist and are expensive. What you are paying for mostly is the fact that they CAN charge more, not that it is difficult to make.

See the difference? His application was taking pictures in the Daytime but having the images show up like you took them at night. My application is totally different.

Your application is totally different. Using an IR filter you can take some interesting pictures, but it would be difficult or impossible to use that for hunting. I have some pictures of it on my camera, and they are interesting. The sky becomes dark and trees glow brightly.

Infinity? Not sure what you mean by that.

Infinity refers to a laser that is focused far out into the distance. Most of the time when you see a laser it is focused to infinity.

Gotchya, I will check out what wavelengths fox's and coyotes & coons can not see along with us humans.

It's an interesting question, and one I've been trying to figure out too. Here is a thread about it.

Hold up, not a laser? What do you mean by the term "Laser." Let me elaborate, in the past I have been using a combination of MANY LED lights. Problem was distance, it was only good for short range. Than I started to use reflectors from various flashlights to try and "beam" out the light farther. Well, bottom line is having 100+ LED's & reflectors mounted off my scope just isn't practical. So, I need something to "beam" out there farther to illuminate.

So an IR laser correct? But you are saying, no not a laser? So you are just saying a I need a more powerful Diode? I thought that's what a laser was? Or is a "laser" a term to describe the focus?

Lasers and LEDs are closely related. A laser can be described as a complicated and generally more powerful LED.

I am using the term "laser" as a way to illuminate, not beam. Maybe I should have said, "I need a more powerful illuminator so I should look into a more powerful *diode*." Correct?

A powerful LED would work well for you. If you used a laser you could focus it into as wide of an area as you wanted, and if you use an LED it will most likely end up as a flood light.

Yes, however, so WHY did they come up with IIT's when you could just use a powerful IR laser Illuminator as a light source?

From my understanding is that IIT's can *amplifer* better and I believe with the new Generation 4 NV they have out now, you DO NOT need a natural light source like starlight/moonlight while with IR you NEED a natural light source.

I still don't understand what's the whole big deal with IIT's when you could just with an IR laser illuminator.

Night vision devices detect thermal radiation. They don't emit anything, and are sensitive to small amounts of IR. If you use an IR laser you should be able to see things around you using far cheaper equipment, but the effect will be more like a flashlight that you can only see on your screen. ITTs will be able to look anywhere.


Unfortunately, I don't think bennitt and his group are likely to leave us alone any time soon. Bennitt has been trolling and being disruptive on these forums for some time now, and after I pointed out that he is a troll he got very mad and, along with a group of his friends, have been attempting to harass me.

I have had him on my ignore list for a few days now and it has made these forums much more pleasant.

 

[Sigurthr]

Ablaze,
I just wanted to clarify one thing; not all night vision equipment uses thermal IR. I think "FLIR" (forward looking IR) is the term designated for thermal vision. For example, I have a night vision scope here which is sensitive to UVA, NUV, Visible, NIR, and to a much lesser extent IR. 808nm is very bright to my scope but above 1000nm is not. My scope doesn't see thermal IR at all, not one bit. Thernal IR is in the Far IR region.

 

[ARG]

Lasers and LEDs are closely related. A laser can be described as a complicated and generally more powerful LED.

I think you mean to compare laser diodes to LED's? :thinking:

Comparing a laser to an LED is like comparing a flashlight to a laser diode.

 

[Ablaze]

Ablaze,
I just wanted to clarify one thing; not all night vision equipment uses thermal IR. I think "FLIR" (forward looking IR) is the term designated for thermal vision. For example, I have a night vision scope here which is sensitive to UVA, NUV, Visible, NIR, and to a much lesser extent IR. 808nm is very bright to my scope but above 1000nm is not. My scope doesn't see thermal IR at all, not one bit. Thernal IR is in the Far IR region.

That's interesting, how much did the scope cost you?

 

[BrittanyGulden]

Thankyou guys, I will try and combine both of your responses into my response below:

CCD: I knew it wasn't as simple as slapping a CCD onto either side of my Optics on my Rifle. Understood, so what is/are the "Every Other Part" that works W/ a CCD Chip to Allow IR?


Two Lasers, Correct (as noted in beginning of thread) One for "Illumination" & the other to serve purpose as my "CrossHairs/Reticals"


IIT's: Let's get this straight. I understand there are 4 Different Generations, including Generation 0. You said "IIT's were developed for usage with LITTLE to no natural Light source like starlight/moonlight." When you said "IIT's" were you talking about them ALL, including ALL generations, because from my understanding the early generations worked using Natural Light like "starlight" and the more advanced generations could be used with NO natural light source. So its not really "all" IIT's. I am going to go read up on the different Generations & their functionalities. I believe the newest Generation:Gen 4 has tossed out "using film" and doesn't need ANY natural light source to operate, well something along those lines. So I am building a device right, what Generation would my device be considered?




I am not too worried about the light coming off my LCD screen. Sure, in the fall it may give away my position. However, this device will be used in the Winter and everything will be white, including my clothing (camo) so I am not too worried about "white light" shining on my white clothes as it wouldn't be too visible/noticable.

You are right, maybe I could go out and buy a device and save me some money. I am going to school in a few years for my EET. I love this stuff, actually I am looking into Solar Cells to create Solar Panels as a way to charge my Power Supplies (batteries). What I am doing is basically building an alternative to an IIT as my Laser Illuminator would "amplify." I am taking small steps, and starting from step 1. The great thing about this is knowledge, & always have the option to advance. I assume in the future, I may accumulate the knowledge on how to build an actually IIT & start improving my device. This is what I love about Engineering.

Ability to use a Device With Little to no Natural Light Sources & building the device to allow full usage w/out detection (Like light coming off of LCD giving my postion away) are two variables in which I will be improving after I complete my first device.


It's all about the learning experience for me, & with it comes a great sense of Pride.

Oh btw, another reason I just don't go out and buy an IR Illuminator is because the ones they sell in the states SUCK. Want to know why? It's because they can only sell ones that are "eye safe." LOL, that's the issue right there. I need something with a little more juice, and even if it requires me to be more responsible by taking extra safety precautions like the use of Saftey Goggles than so be it

Here is an example, I copy & pasted this off a website that sells IR Illuminators:

All Starlight scopes need some light to amplify. This means that if you were in complete darkness you could not see. Due to this we have a built in infra-red illuminator (IRI) on all of our scopes. Basically what an IRI does is throw out a beam of infra-red light that is near invisible to the naked eye but your NVD can see it. This allows you to use your scope even in total darktness. The IRI works like a flashlight and the distance you can see with it will be limited. WE DO USE THE MOST POWERFUL EYE-SAFE ILLUMINATOR ON THE MARKET. This allows our IRI to extend out to 100 yards However, because of the power at a short distance the IRI may cover only 40-60% of the viewing area.



...Did you notice what was in CAPSLOCKS? There is the problem, "eye safe" which means they are only providing you with a Laser to a certain "strength." I know I can go make one myself using a more powerful laser diode, so why not

 

[Sigurthr]

Ablaze,
I bought it at Walmart about 8 years ago for i think $100. It's a NightOwl monocle scope, 3x zoom, pretty decent for the price and the time. You only have to power it on for about 30sec and then when you shut it off the capacitors are still charged, and the drain on them is so little that the scope remains functional (sans IR illuminator) for hours. I think I still have the same pair of AAs in there. I don't get to use it much though.

BrittanyGulden,
Ahh, I see now. I wish I could help out more but I've reached the end of my area of expertise. I have no experience with the construction techniques for night vision scopes or digital camera. I only know the basics for those fields. Good luck with your design/project! When you've got the Night vision device all hammered out and need the IR laser don't hesitate to ask for more help.

I do agree that most LED based illumination that is readily available sucks. Even the normal visible light flash lights tend to suck. Problem is they are made with many (hundreds, thousands) of LEDs all unfocussed. The real nice LED lights use a single high power chip and a focussing lens. They are called "throw lights" (vs. "flood lights"). I have a 3W (3000mW) LED flashlight that will project a bright spot up to 1/2 mile before spreading out too much to be usefull. It eats batteries and gets pretty hot though, and isn't much use up close since the beam is so narrow, you have to swing it side to side to see 10ft in front of you haha. I once saw a video on YT of a multi-thousand LED torch style flashlight someone made. It used enough batteries to start a car. Yet, it could only project light usefully about 250ft.

 

[BrittanyGulden]

Ablaze,
I bought it at Walmart about 8 years ago for i think $100. It's a NightOwl monocle scope, 3x zoom, pretty decent for the price and the time. You only have to power it on for about 30sec and then when you shut it off the capacitors are still charged, and the drain on them is so little that the scope remains functional (sans IR illuminator) for hours. I think I still have the same pair of AAs in there. I don't get to use it much though.

BrittanyGulden,
Ahh, I see now. I wish I could help out more but I've reached the end of my area of expertise. I have no experience with the construction techniques for night vision scopes or digital camera. I only know the basics for those fields. Good luck with your design/project! When you've got the Night vision device all hammered out and need the IR laser don't hesitate to ask for more help.

I do agree that most LED based illumination that is readily available sucks. Even the normal visible light flash lights tend to suck. Problem is they are made with many (hundreds, thousands) of LEDs all unfocussed. The real nice LED lights use a single high power chip and a focussing lens. They are called "throw lights" (vs. "flood lights"). I have a 3W (3000mW) LED flashlight that will project a bright spot up to 1/2 mile before spreading out too much to be usefull. It eats batteries and gets pretty hot though, and isn't much use up close since the beam is so narrow, you have to swing it side to side to see 10ft in front of you haha. I once saw a video on YT of a multi-thousand LED torch style flashlight someone made. It used enough batteries to start a car. Yet, it could only project light usefully about 250ft.

Okay So I have done a bit of researching around to see exactly what wavelength Fox, coyote, and coon see & well can't get any specific #'s. I have called down to the DNR (department of natural resources) and hopefully I will get a response tomarrow. Human eye is sensative to an approximate range of wave length of EM radiation from 380 nm to 760 nm. As ablaze noted, I will need to find a NM range that Us humans and the Desingated Animals CAN NOT SEE.

As soon as I find the correct "NM" I can go about choosing Power.

IR LED based Illumination does suck, or atleast what's "readily available on the market"

So what would you recomend me doing as far as an Illumination device?

So "flood lights" are the ordinary IR LED's you find at Radio Shack, you know the ones that only can illuminate so far, meaning they focus w/ "flooding" vs "beaming"

Throw Lights? Can you elaborate. I planned on using a "Laser" Diode & using some type of Lense/reflector to "spread out & light the area" Hmm, I am not sure what type of Diode to use.

I take it I am not going to get "the best of both worlds" meaning I probaly wont be able to "beam out there" while having that "beam" be "flooding" accross the area in front of me allowing me to see 180 degrees in front of me at the distance I want.

I take it this may have to do more with the Reflector/lense vs the actual diode I choose?


You ever try using a Heat sink?

 

[Sigurthr]

My throw LED light is a consumer edition, which isn't hack-friendly (meaning it isn't worth time/money to modify), so heatsinking would be more trouble than it is worth. It works for what I use it for though (spotting animals in my yard).

Back to your illuminator; With a throw LED illuminator you will get better range as it will beam out further, but you won't be able to controll that range well. Go with a handheld IR laser that is focusable. You'll be able to focus the spot anywhere you need to and won't have to worry about getting into any reflector nonsense.

Something like this will work well: 808nm 200mw Focusable IR Infrared Laser Pointer (keep in mind this one is 808nm, which some people and animals can see, this is just an example of the kind of laser features you would be looking for, not the exact one you need).

There are people here on this forum which can custom make hosts (the flashlight like shape), heatsinks, modules, and focusing adapters that will work with any diode. If you wanted to custom make the IR laser you would need to source the following: diode, driver, module, heatsink, lenses, and host. Every one of those items needs to be compatible with each other.

 

[Cyparagon]

I will need to find a NM range that Us humans and the Desingated Animals CAN NOT SEE.

You want something in the 900s. 940nm is common, and very nearly 100% invisible.

 

[BrittanyGulden]

My throw LED light is a consumer edition, which isn't hack-friendly (meaning it isn't worth time/money to modify), so heatsinking would be more trouble than it is worth. It works for what I use it for though (spotting animals in my yard).

Back to your illuminator; With a throw LED illuminator you will get better range as it will beam out further, but you won't be able to controll that range well. Go with a handheld IR laser that is focusable. You'll be able to focus the spot anywhere you need to and won't have to worry about getting into any reflector nonsense.

Something like this will work well: 808nm 200mw Focusable IR Infrared Laser Pointer (keep in mind this one is 808nm, which some people and animals can see, this is just an example of the kind of laser features you would be looking for, not the exact one you need).

There are people here on this forum which can custom make hosts (the flashlight like shape), heatsinks, modules, and focusing adapters that will work with any diode. If you wanted to custom make the IR laser you would need to source the following: diode, driver, module, heatsink, lenses, and host. Every one of those items needs to be compatible with each other.

"Throw LED Illuminator?"

So how do they "classify" LED's. As "Flood" OR "Beam?"



Focusable? I want to be able to mount the instrument and not tamper with it, well ofcourse I will need to tamper with the Laser for my Reticals when sighting it in, but the IR luminator I am hoping to just leave "as is."

WHen you said "Focusable" you mean, look for one that is "focusable" and adjust it to my specific Range (which from 0-250 yrds) and than leave it alone VS having to "refocus" the IR illuminator everytime I make a shot with my rifle assuming that each target won't be at the same range each time.


I am hoping to "DIY" -again, learning experience


Thankyou again!

 

[Sigurthr]

You would be able to set it to the range you would require, you shouldn't have to mess with it for every shot, though the option would certainly be there. Better to have the option and not need it, than to need it and not have the option.

No idea how they offically classify the LED illuminators. It would be "flood" vs. "throw" though.