Bullfighting

[nikokapo]

Hey Niko....


You are not being disproved...
The question asked was whether we approve of bullfighting and we
aired our views...
Just because you think Bullfighting should banned... does not make
your views wrong.....

Jerry

I was referring to the fact of me being wrong about some animals feeling pain.

The old lines between us and them are becoming more blurred all the time. Pain is simply a "sensation" that has become so intense that it triggers our avoidance. How many animals will react to avoid a sensation?

Trees react to the attack of wood boring insects by producing a chemical which repels them. Simple chemical reactions, right? Those same trees also send out a different chemical to "tell" the other trees that it is being attacked. The other trees then begin to produce their own chemical to repel the invaders even though they have not been personally attacked.

Microbes communicate with microbes that they meet along the way. They compare what defenses to our antibiotics they each have, and then exchange the ones they do not have in common so that BOTH now have the needed "information" to survive.

Pelagic fishes (tuna, etc) react to temperature changes as little as 1 degree. They become uncomfortable with a 1 degree temperature shift. They work to avoid that discomfort. At what level will the temperature difference become "pain"?

Birds will act injured to attract the attention of a predator away from their young. A mother deer will confront a lion to protect its young.

How are they different from us?

Does that mean that I think that we should all become absolute vegans? No. We fought our way to the top of the hierarchy. We should enjoy the benefits of holding that position.

You should invite me to the bullfight. I have no problem with bullfighting. I then get the opportunity to accept or reject your invitation. NOW -- if after I refuse, you try to "force" me to go "for my own good" I will move you lower on my personal hierarchy If I try to tell you that bullfighting is bad, then I have forced myself above you on the hierarchy. I would expect you to react accordingly.

I eat what I want. I kill what I want. That doesn't mean I kill everything. I pretty much conform to my society's view on the hierarchy of life. It is necessary to live in said society. For example. dogs are well below my line of "kill if I want to." However, if I leave my dog in my car on a hot day, I would expect to have my window broken out and to be arrested for leaving it there. NOT because the dog's life is so valuable, but because it is against the law to leave a pet in a car here.

I do NOT want you to go to bullfights. I also do not want you to tell Hallucynogenyc he should not. However, I DO want you both to tell each other what you think and to UNDERSTAND why you think it.

[/dad mode]

Peace,
dave

Got it. I still do not approve of bullfighting.

I'm not complaining about animals killing. I eat them myself. I'm complaining about making a show about torturing and killing. The bull was gonna die anyway? The bull would have never been born if that events didn't exist. And anyway, I could feel the bull suffering from where I was, just look at the second video. The bull is crying for the goodness sake.

Honestly, call me crazy as Niko, maybe we are really crazy, but If I had to choose between killing the bullfighter or the bull, I wouldn't doubt for a second. Moreover, If I had to kill many people inside there I ensure you the bull would be the last surviver.

Both the bullfighters and the people who go at these shows repel me. The worst is that tourists like jaycey are the cause why this is still going on.

Sacrifice might suit the definition maybe. how can you consider it a fight, 10 people with daggers, swords, spears and other torturing stuff against a poor bull.

one guy with a sword puts up no fight against a whole army of men armed with tanks and shotguns (unless of course the man is Chuck Norris)

The bull is inside a small "box" with no windows so he stays in the most complete darkness. After this if they find out that the bull is relaxed they inject them substances to excite them. When the show is gonna start some people hit him with wands to ensure the bull starts running as soon as he is liberated. The bull doesn't want to fight at first. Just look how does he always run around the arena. he is looking for the exit (that's why they are all circular, it has been proven that on a square arena the bull goes to the corner and stays there for some time).

^ This. I wasn't just stating my opinion, I do know some things about bullfighting and thus couldn't leave this subject neutral.

Thanks man, exactly my thoughts.

 

[daguin]

Seriously, I was very surprised with the results. There is more people who likes bullfighting outside than inside Spain. I wonder why this fights aren't done outside Spain then...

From just a cursory search on the net, bulllfighting takes place in more than just Spain: Portugal, France, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela, and even my home state of California in the US of A.



Peace,
dave

 

[lasersbee]

anyone that works at a sloughter house has no morals . and should be executed themselves

oh btw we are up to about 3.5 million birds a week now

Foster Poultry Farms -- Company History

:crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup:... ROFLMAO....:crackup::crackup::crackup:


@jaycey...

Albert said "I wonder why this fights aren't done outside Spain then... "
They are, just in a different arena and different animal..In UK fox hunting.

I don't think they hunt Fox in the UK with a cape and I don't think they fight
with them... :crackup:
(there is no smiley with googly eyes :thinking
Jerry:angel:

Jerry

 

[jaycey]

you gonna teach me about my country? Not to be rude and I know it sounds like this, but trust me that I know everything I need to know about euskadi.

18 years old and knows everything worth knowing about Euskadi....I am truely humbled by your knowledge and experience.

Agur

 

[daguin]

18 years old and knows everything worth knowing about Euskadi....I am truely humbled by your knowledge and experience.

Agur

Remember the alcohol, gentlemen

Peace,
dave

 

[jaycey]

Apologies gentlemen....buenas noches

 

[GoRdOn_B]

i dont have a problem with it.. it is messed up for the bull and all but i dont really mind it. bullfighting is part of spains culture. i think if its part of your culture, it doesnt matter what outsiders think. on occasion the fighters get what they deserve and i dont have a problem with that either.

anyways thats my opinion

but Niko.. you think hunters have no manhood? i think your a bit confused on why we do it.
Out here in Utah.. Guns & hunting is a big part of our culture. I hunt, i dont see anything wrong with it either. its good eatins if you ask me. dont knock it till you tried it. thatsa what me thinx

also i see some of you have a bit of an issue with the murder of animals for food and not just sport.. i sure hope those people are vegitarians or vegans and not hypocrites.. LoL
:beer:

 

[Deleted member 8382]

Well man, I've got several friends on Euskadi, I've been there twice and since I am a Catalan convicted nationalist that shares the same problem than Euskadi I have read more than you could imagine about the cultural differences etc etc etc between Spain and us.

If you really know something about Euskadi you should know what I'm talking about, if you don't then we better leave the matter.

If you think that bullfighting is Part of the Basque culture go on it, you are very very wrong.

Did you ever study anything about Spanish history? Maybe about Spanish political situation? No, you didn't. I'm only 18, but I've lived 18 years at 500m from a bullfight Arena in Spain. The maximum experience you've had with all this were a Holidays on Bilbao and you're telling me that you are "astonished by my experience"? Well, it's obviously way bigger than yours >.>

Also, if you had ever read anything about bullfights you wouldn't be telling things like

The bullfighters I have watched are 'generaly' very skillfull, if a bullfighter doesnt put on a good show the crowd turn on him, make no doubt about it.
If he cant dispatch a bull cleanly then he will be booed and jeerred out of the ring.

And how does this affect the matter itself? Old Romans also did the same with gladiators, do you approve them too?

All in all I find it a fantastic event and the that people celebrate on special occasions.

Inside you there's a voice telling you that you are totally wrong. You are adding "only in special ocasions" because you know it's not a good thing. Also, calling this a fantastic event was the last thing I had to hear today omg

Well, hallucinogenic, it's a good thing you weren't in France during their revolution. They used to line aristocrats and others up and march them to the guillotine one by one while the whole town cheered them on. I don't think I could watch someone get beheaded regardless of the crime, and the French aristocracy could have been guilty of many crimes, but the reason they were killed is because of who they were.

In Roman times the gladiator was the bull, more or less.. they were put into sometimes impossible situations involving doing battle with both man and beast. These matches were pretty much the national sport of the Roman empire, much like baseball in the US.

Compared to these, bullfighting is quite tame.

Do the fact that someone else did it worse justify that you do something bad? NO. Find a better argument please, you are only telling me that humanity was even worse on the past, something about which I actually don't care.

Each person has their own sensitivities. Just because you are sensitive to the pain of an animal doesn't mean everyone else will or should feel the same way. Being sensitive to the pain of a person is a whole different thing.

Look at the second video (0:45). If you aren't sensitive to it you just don't have heart. Also, it's not only about the animal pain, it's about everyone around you laughing and having a good time while seeing a torture. It's about making a party in which the main objective is a competition on who do torture the animal the best.

From just a cursory search on the net, bulllfighting takes place in more than just Spain: Portugal, France, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela, and even my home state of California in the US of A.

I meant why aren't them moved to the countries of the tourists that come here to see this.

bullfighting is part of spains culture. i think if its part of your culture, it doesnt matter what outsiders think.

The problem is that it's not part of my culture. It's part of some people culture. As I said, most of the people here would like to see it banned.

on occasion the fighters get what they deserve and i dont have a problem with that either.

This is the only part I like, specially if they die. The bad is that even when the bull wins it gets killed immediatly -.-

also i see some of you have a bit of an issue with the murder of animals for food and not just sport.. i sure hope those people are vegitarians or vegans and not hypocrites.. LoL

If you take a fu***** bird and hit it down the bird won't even know what happend because he will die immediatly. A part from this you are not going to record the scene with zoom to show in slow motion how the bird's head explodes and then making a movie about it.

It's not about killing them itself, it's about making a show about it and even considerating it "art". It's the most stupid thing I've ever heard omg

 

[daguin]

It has become fairly obvious that you started this thread NOT to learn about what others thought of bullfighting, but simply as a springboard from which you could launch into your rant about the horrors of bullfighting and your superiority of others

I, for one, am done with YOU on this topic. If anyone else wants to continue talking about people, things, or beliefs, I am open. However, I choose not expend thoughtful energy, only to be ignored so that someone with an agenda can spew venom on others.

Maybe there is alcohol involved on both sides. I don't know. At least one of the gentlemen was gracious.

Peace,
dave

 

[Deleted member 8382]

I never pretended to have the minimum fun with this.

Also, I wanted to verify that my friend was wrong, but I come here and discover the horrible truth. I'm now very shocked and well, yes, the only utility of the post right now is to discuss why bullfighting is good or bad.

What's so bad on it?

 

[lasersbee]

Man... Hallucynogenyc...
what is wrong with you...:thinking:

You start a Poll Thread... and when members start to air their views
you get defensive if it is not what you want to hear...

That is childish... IMO

If you don't want the hear the responses of rest of the world/Forum
to your questions.. don't open your Thread to ALL members but only
to the members in your region of the world... or perhaps member of
your own age..

.... That's not what this Forum Community is about.... :tsk:

ALL members are welcome to comment on any posted in any Thread...
You opened the door when you posted this thread... No-one forced
you...


I seems that you are pi$$ed off because your "buddy in arms" has been
banned recently... I may be wrong... but I read a lot of post here...
and you two have been running along side each other for a while...

I really hope I'm wrong...

Jerry

 

[ElektroFreak]

It definitely seems at this stage that this thread was started to bait prople into a flame thread.. not too sure of the motive, though.

 

[millirad]

The thread would have been better stated as: "Bullfighting is not popular in Catalonia/Catalunya". The poll would not be used, and then you would state your case showing the Youtube videos and presenting your side. Then you might ask if anyone agrees or disagrees with you. That would be a better way to illuminate this topic. (JMHO)

Incidently, I flew into Barcelona, and saw the Picasso Museum and then took the train to Figueres to see Teatro Museo de Dali. The Salvador Dali Museum was wonderful, and the Serrano was delicious. My big mistake was to miss the Gaudi architecture.

 

[jaycey]

Well Albert you finaly showed your true colours, you have made so many assumptions about me.
"Holidays in Bilbao" thats as funny as seeing a matador chased round the ring when it all goes wrong!!
Seeing as I speak fluent Spanish...and Basque, might give you a some idea of were I am from.


Now we know why you started this thread, what I suggest you do, because no doubt you do...is get you pathetic little banner out and stand with your very little gang outside the 'plaza de toros' and shout out your thoughts to the arriving crowds.
But please dont shout them out here anymore

Jason

 

[Deleted member 8382]

I'm going to leave the matter but I am really really really disappointed with what I've heard here.

I could have never imagined I was gonna see this on LPF.

because no doubt you do...is get you pathetic little banner out and stand with your very little gang outside the 'plaza de toros' and shout out your thoughts to the arriving crowds.

I'm really consternated. innocent of me that I thought people outside Spain wasn't so stupid.

Seeing as I speak fluent Spanish...and Basque, might give you a some idea of were I am from.

Oh no, you are basque? I just can't understand a basque is saying bullfighting is part of their culture. It's not that my colors matter on this, but I wanted you to understand that I have "some kind" of knowledge when it comes to this kind of things,

because no doubt you do

I've honestly never done because I don't think going there and showing banners is gonna change anything.

The thread would have been better stated as: "Bullfighting is not popular in Catalonia/Catalunya". The poll would not be used, and then you would state your case showing the Youtube videos and presenting your side. Then you might ask if anyone agrees or disagrees with you. That would be a better way to illuminate this topic

The fact is that I never expected the thread to go like this. If I had knew I honestly would have preferred to not open it so that I never know what you guys think about this.

Incidently, I flew into Barcelona, and saw the Picasso Museum and then took the train to Figueres to see Teatro Museo de Dali. The Salvador Dali Museum was wonderful, and the Serrano was delicious. My big mistake was to miss the Gaudi architecture.

THIS is exactly what my culture is. Glad you loved it

It definitely seems at this stage that this thread was started to bait prople into a flame thread.. not too sure of the motive, though.

Trust me that it wasn't. This justs affects me a lot and I'm terrorized to discover most of the people here are just like many of the ones I hate.

You start a Poll Thread... and when members start to air their views
you get defensive if it is not what you want to hear...

That is childish... IMO

Jerry please don't get offended but, as you have already said, don't know anything about the matter. You should come here and see to know why I am so consternated. I just never expected this to happen. My biggest mistake was to believe things where not like here outside here.

If you don't want the hear the responses of rest of the world/Forum
to your questions.. don't open your Thread to ALL members but only
to the members in your region of the world... or perhaps member of
your own age..

.... That's not what this Forum Community is about....

Why does this section exists? It's called "other" section!

I seems that you are pi$$ed off because your "buddy in arms" has been
banned recently... I may be wrong... but I read a lot of post here...
and you two have been running along side each other for a while...

I really hope I'm wrong...

Am I just so wrong or you are putting me at Wesdaman level because I'm against bullfighting and I'm now for you just a crazy activist like Wesdaman?

Jerry you really let me down here. You are absolutely wrong.

I wonder if c0ld could delete this thread so I never find it again.

Yours,
Albert

 

[jaycey]

"Oh no, you are basque?" Nope, im Spanish.

"I just can't understand a basque is saying bullfighting is part of their culture" Never said it was?

"I thought people outside Spain wasn't so stupid" Yes of course we are, but then I found most Catalan's think anyone outside of Catalunya are stupid

Lets just agree to disagree, I see no wrong in bullfighting, you do.

If your ever in Bilbao let me know, we can discuss it over a Caña and a Pintxo