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Another review of the Spyder Arctic G2 445nm Blue Laser (this one to be destroyed!)

The_LED_Museum

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This is a long post with at least 49 images on it; dial-up users please allow for plenty of load time.

S3 Spyder Arctic G2 445nm Blue Laser (2), retail $299.95 (www.wickedlasers.com...)
Manufactured by Wicked Lasers (www.wickedlasers.com)
Last updated 04-13-12








The S3 Spyder Arctic G2 445nm directly-injected diode laser (hereinafter, probably just referred to as the "Arctic") is an extremely powerful self-contained, handheld laser.

Since it's been asked of me by the manufacturer to try and kill this laser, you can visit the posted evaluation I made for the Arctic on this BBS RIGHT HERE, as most of the content you want will be found there.

In fact, all you'll find here are a trio of beam terminus photographs, plus spectrographic & beam cross-sectional analyses of this laser -- premortem of course, and the chart showing how long it lasted before it croaked (ie. went to that big diode in the sky).

The LaserShades I received with this Arctic are a LOT more effective at this laser's wavelength than the ones I received with my first Arctic...guess it's time to crank out another review!!!




The lenses, windows, and holographic optics you'll receive when you order the "Expanded Lens Set" are now labelled as to their function.
From left to right in this photograph:

Line effect optic
Cross effect optic
Galaxy effect optic
Focusing (positive) lens
Flashlight effect (diverging) lens
Training "lens" (window)
Standard "lens" (window)

The standard "lens" is AR (antireflective) coated on both sides to maximise light transmission.




Beam photograph on the test target at 12".
Beam image bloomed ***SIGNIFICANTLY***.

The laser power meter I have is simply not capable of measuring the tremendous power output of this laser (est. ~1.0 watt!!!) at maximum power.

The measurement I was able to take was made on a Sper Scientific Pocket Laser Power Meter # 840011.

Measures 40.911mW on "low" with the training lens.



I got a LaserBee laser power meter that can measure up to 2.50W on the afternoon of 06-13-11 (or "13 Jun 2011" if you prefer), and can now measure this laser at its maximum output.

Measures 708mW (high) and 83mW (low) on this meter.






Beam photograph on a wall at ~10 feet (low).



Beam photograph on a wall at ~10 feet (high).

Those colored graphics toward the left are my "Viva Piñata" posters, and that clock on the right that looks like a gigantic wristwatch is my Infinity Optics Clock.
You may also be able to see two of my SpongeBob SquarePants plush (Squidward Tentacles & Patrick Star) and a Digimon plush (Greymon)



Photograph of its beam terminus on snow at ~100 feet.



Short-term stability analysis at maximum CW output; 600 seconds (10 minutes).



This is the SmartSwitch™ button on my first Arctic.



And this is the SmartSwitch™ button on this Arctic.
Note that it is already in the very early stages of paint loss.




Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on low).



Same as above; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 440.95nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on high).



Same as above; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength; which appears to be 442.00nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on low) *AFTER* the first "kill test" to check for wavelength drift.



Same as above *AFTER* the first "kill test" to check for wavelength drift; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 440.92nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on high) *AFTER* the first "kill test" to check for wavelength drift.



Same as above *AFTER* the first "kill test" to check for wavelength drift; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength; which appears to be 442.00nm.

As you can see from the above four spectrographic analyses, virtually no wavelength shift occurred as a result of the Phase 1 of the "kill test" (Phase 2 will entail operating the Arctic at maximum output from an external power source for at least 24 hours continuously; ETA of the power supply board: 12-16-10 (or "16 Dec. 2010" if you prefer).



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on low) *AFTER* the second & third "kill tests" to check for wavelength drift.



Same as above *AFTER* the second & third "kill tests" to check for wavelength drift; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 440.92nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on high) *AFTER* the second & third "kill tests" to check for wavelength drift.



Same as above *AFTER* the second & third "kill tests" to check for wavelength drift; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 430nm and 445nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength; which appears to be 442.00nm.



Low; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 438nm and 442nm to (yet) more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 440.992nm.



High; spectrometer's response narrowed to a range between 439nm and 443nm to (yet) more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 441.620nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on low); spectrometer's response broadened to its maximum range of 175nm to 874nm to show the total lack of any emissions whatsoever beyond the laser line itself.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on high); spectrometer's response broadened to its maximum range of 175nm to 874nm to show the total lack of any emissions whatsoever beyond the laser line itself.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on low); newer spectrometer software settings used.



Same as above; spectrometer's response narrowed to a band between 440nm and 450nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 441.998nm.



Spectrographic analysis of the S3 Spyder Arctic (on high); newer spectrometer software settings used



Same as above (high mode); newer spectrometer software settings used. Spectrometer's response narrowed to a band between 440nm and 450nm to more accurately pinpoint wavelength, which appears to be 440.521nm.



ALL NONLASER SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSES NOW HAVE THEIR OWN WEB PAGE!!!


USB2000 Spectrometer graciously donated by P.L.





Beam cross-sectional analysis (X-axis; low power).



Beam cross-sectional analysis (Y-axis; low power).



Beam cross-sectional analysis (X-axis; high power).



Beam cross-sectional analysis (Y-axis; high power).

In all four analyses, those circular "blotches" in the beam really do exist; I believe
they are due to motes of dust on the laser diode's output window or collimating lens.

Images made using the ProMetric System by Radiant Imaging.




Now, here's the chart you've been waiting for.
Measurements were automatically recorded at 20 minute intervals.
This is with the Arctic on battery power.
The next test will be conducted with an external power supply with a Vf of +3.6 volts and can sink at least 1,500mA on a continuous basis.

According to S.L. of Wicked Lasers, the Arctic's laser diode
might not even die...
...let's hope that this will indeed be the case.




[Video removed by request of the manufacturer]

This video on YourTube shows this laser failing to pop popcorn; though a lot of smoke was generated, he kernel did not pop. I had to shut the test down before the fire alarm went off.

I somewhat suspected that something like this might occur; the lasers heated the outer portion of the kernel to the point where smoke was being emitted, but the inner part of the kernel (responsible for it "popping" into the popcorn we all know and love) did not receive sufficient heat to initiate popping because the outer shell of the kernel was absorbing (and consequently "stealing") most of the laser energy; what little was transmitted to the interior cause the water inside to turn to steam (as it's supposed to) but it vented from the kernel instead of causing a pressure buildup and subsequent "popping".

I have what I believe is the (very probable) explanation of why even multiple Arctics failed to pop the popcorn.

Firstly, you need to know a little about how popcorn works: when the kernel is heated, the inner portion (which contains water) heats to above the boiling point of water (212°F {100°C}); the water turns to steam, the interior builds pressure until the outer hull bursts, and POP!!! You see the white fluffy popcorn that most of us are familiar with.

What's happening here is that the Arctic heats up the outer hull very much (to the point of emitting smoke); this weakens the outer hull at that point (possibly even puncturing it) so that pressure can no longer build inside the kernel -- the steam simply vents through the opening burned into the outer hull by the laser instead of causing the kernel to "explode" as it normally would.

This does not in *ANY* way indicate a problem with the laser itself; this is simply a matter of how the laws of physics play out here.


The image is tinted orange because I held laser safety glasses over the camera's lens to minimise image blooming.

This clip is approximately 19.335234777754 megabytes (19,591,638 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than ninety six minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.




[Video removed by request of the manufacturer]

This second video on YourTube shows not one, but TWO (2) of these lasers (this one plus this one) failing to pop popcorn; though a lot of smoke was generated, the kernel did not pop. As with the first test, I had to shut the test down before the fire alarm went off.
I somewhat suspected that something like this might occur; the lasers heated the outer portion of the kernel to the point where smoke was being emitted, but the inner part of the kernel (responsible for it "popping" into the popcorn we all know and love) did not receive sufficient heat to initiate popping because the outer shell of the kernel was absorbing (and consequently "stealing") most of the laser energy.

Like before, the image is tinted orange because I held laser safety glasses over the camera's lens to minimise image blooming (they slipped a few times; as evidenced by the image becoming dramatically brighter and with a lot of blue visible in it).

This clip is approximately 13.44443823428 megabytes (13,695,550 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than sixty seven minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.



[Video removed by request of the manufacturer]

This third video shows two Wicked Lasers Spyder 3 Arctic 445nm 1W Blue Diode Lasers failing to pop popcorn; though a lot of smoke was generated, the kernel did not pop. I could see the steam venting from one of the holes in the popcorn's hull (outer shell), so I knew with absolute, positive, 100% certainty that it was not going to pop -- and terminated the test shortly thereafter.


This is what the popcorn kernel looked like after this test. Note the black, burned areas; that's where the Arctics were irradiating it.

This clip is approximately 13.543455558391 megabytes (13,772,426 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than sixty seven minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.








TEST NOTES:
Test unit was sent by Steve L. of Wicked Lasers for destructive testing (yes, I was specifically asked to attempt to kill it!!!) on 11-25-10 (or "25 Nov 2010" if you prefer), was received by my intermediary tester on the east coast of the United States at 12:58pm EST on 11-26-10 (or "26 Nov 2010"), was mailed by him to me on 12-01-10 ("01 Dec 2010"), and finally, was received by me for attempted lasercide at 4:44pm PST on 12-03-10 (or "03 Dec 2010").




UPDATE: 12-06-10
I added the somewhat dreadful "
" icon to my website to indicate that destructive testing has been performed -- naturally, this product received the icon, as did this pair of LaserShades.




UPDATE: 12-08-10
I've been asked by the president of Wicked Lasers to perform "The Popcorn Test" on the Arctic -- this test simply demonstrates that popcorn can indeed be popped simply by irradiating the kernel with the Arctic's beam while the Arctic is at full power.

The test set-up I'll be using looks like this:


The image appears orange because the Arctic 445nm LaserShades (1) that came with my first Arctic were held over the camera's lens. This helps to reduce image blooming, yet still shows sufficient blue that the viewer will know with absolute, positive, 100% certainity that irradiation of the kernel with the Arctic is solely responsible for popping it.

The popcorn to be used for this test should be here by Friday 12-10-10 (or "10 Dec 2010" if you prefer); the video itself should appear in this posting early Saturday. I cannot simply buy popcorn at the store because I use an electric wheelchair that offers no protection from rain, I don't own or have access to a car, and the nearest store is approximately 25 minutes away, one-way via the wheelchair.



UPDATE: 12-13-10
Performed spectroscopy of fluorescence of a tritium Glow Ring when irradiated with this laser.



UPDATE: 12-15-10
Performed spectroscopy of fluorescence of three more objects when irradiated with this laser.




UPDATE: 12-16-10
Being a CDRH Class 4 device, in the United States the Arctic must have (in addition to the existing safety features) but does not have:

1: Mechanical beam shutter
2: LED (or other light source) emissions indicator (The Arctic does have LEDs, but they do not actually indicate whether or not laser radiation is being generated)

Therefore, at least ½ a star has to come off its rating.



UPDATE: 01-13-11



This video shows both of my Wicked Lasers Spyder 3 Arctic 445nm 1W Blue Diode Lasers shooting into snowfall.
Video taken at 8:04pm PDT on 01-11-11 (or "11 Jan. 2011" if you prefer.

This video is approximately 1.300073654145 megabytes (1,450,173 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than seven minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.

***VERY IMPORTANT!!!***
I made absolutely, positively, 100% certain that no aircraft of any type were in the vicinity when this video was made!!!



UPDATE: 03-01-11
The 24-hour "kill test" (maximum output continuous run test with a duration of 24 hours) is now in progress.
It was started at 9:50am PST on 03-01-11 (or "01 Mar 2011" if you prefer.

Laser temperature was measured at 98.00°F (36.67°C) after ~90 minutes, with ambient temperature in the testing area at the time of 69.00°F (20.55°C).
Laser temperature was measured at the "head", where the laser diode lives.

Laser temperature at 5:25 into the test was measured at 99.00°F (37.22.°C).

Just under 19 hours into the test, laser temperature measures 103.50°F (39.72°C), with ambient temperature in the testing area at the time of 70.50°F (21.38°C).



UPDATE: 03-03-11



Here's the first long-term "Kill Test" chart.
As you can see, this "kill test" was a dismal failure -- but hold on here -- "failure" in this case is actually a very good thing!!!

Those "bumps" or "hitches" near the beginning of this chart are of unknown causality, but I do not believe the laser itself is at fault here.

It was operating at maximum power for a full 24 hours, and there was no output power degradation of any concern!!!

Measurements were automatically recorded at 1,800 second (30 minute) intervals. Laser temperature at the conclusion of the test was measured at 102.50°F (39.16°C).

Many thanks go to D. Klipstein in Philadelphia PA. USA for constructing the voltage regulator circuit used for this test that enabled me to power the Arctic from my laboratory power supply in leiu of batteries.



UPDATE: 03-04-11
A second 24 hour "kill test" was conducted.


It was operating at maximum power for a full 25 hours (not 24 like last time), and there was only very, very minor power output degradation (a few milliwatts tops).

Measurements were automatically recorded at 1,800 second (30 minute) intervals.
Laser temperature at the conclusion of the test was measured at 101.50°F (38.61°C).



UPDATE: 04-22-11
I found the following brief piece about the Arctic in the "Manufacturer's Showcase" section in this month's issue of Laser Focus World magazine:





UPDATE: 06-14-11
I got a LaserBee 2.5W USB Laser Power Meter yesterday, and wasted no time in measuring this laser with it.
Measures 708mW (high) and 83mW (low) on this meter.



UPDATE: 06-26-11
Here are a couple of videos that the manufacturer requested:



Here's how to get "high power" mode to function properly in the Wicked Lasers Spyder S3 445nm Arctic blue diode laser.

This video is approximately 3.20152768111 megabytes (3,394,679 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than sixteen minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.





If your S3 Arctic Spyder laser is not going into high power or staying in high power, or if your S3 Arctic Spyder is acting strange, try this.

Take a small piece of aluminum foil about one half by one and a half inches. Fold it in half so it is now one quarter by one and a half inches long.

Take off the end cap, lay the foil across the positive tip of the battery and make sure the foil is touching the threads on the inside of the laser as you put the
end cap back on.

Be sure to not get the foil in between the threads of the cap and laser as you screw on the cap as it can jam up the threads and ruin the laser.

The Smart Switch™ should be lit now. Click the end power switch on and off several times. The Smart Switch™ should always stay on now with the aluminum foil in place.

Now use the laser, if it works okay now, the problem is with the end cap.

Remember to take the aluminum foil out of the laser when you are done using it, otherwise it will slowly drain the battery over a period of time. Be sure to tilt the laser's back end downward as you take the end cap off so there is no chance of the aluminum foil getting up inside the laser past the battery.

This video is approximately 12.64045232337 megabytes (12,830,393 bytes) in length; dial-up users please be aware.
It will take no less than sixty three minutes to load at 48.0Kbps.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please be advised that my voice sucks in these videos because I had some rather serious brain surgery in late-2002.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PROS:
EXTREMELY POWERFUL output for such a small, self-contained unit
Color (royal blue @ 445nm) is exceptionally vibrant and unusual for a handheld laser
Battery it uses is rechargeable; never have to find disposables for it


CONS:
Timing for using the SmartSwitch™ is somewhat critical; if your timing sucks, you can't get this laser to fire off very easily
(This is a crucial safety feature, and can rather easily be overlooked!)








MANUFACTURER: Wicked Lasers
PRODUCT TYPE: Portable directly-injected royal blue-emitting (
=440.95nm {low} and 442.00nm {high}) diode laser module

LAMP TYPE: Casio blue-emitting laser diode
No. OF LAMPS: 1
BEAM TYPE: Very narrow spot; it's a laser, remember?

SWITCH TYPE: Arm/disarm button & interlock dongle on tailcap; pushbutton on/mode change/off on barrel
CASE MATERIAL: Aluminum
BEZEL: Metal; has aperture (hole) for laser beam to emerge
BATTERY: 1x 185650 rechargeable cell; I believe 1,400mAh capacity
CURRENT CONSUMPTION: 370mA (minimum CW output) to 1,080mA (1.080A) (maximum CW output)
WATER- AND URANATION-RESISTANT: Yes
SUBMERSIBLE: FOR CHRIST SAKES NOOOOO!!!

ACCESSORIES: Protective "LaserShades" laser eyewear, zippered pouch for them, cleaning cloth for them, training lens, 7 other specialty lenses, "Class IV LASER" sticker, 18650 cell, charger, presentation case
SIZE: 35.80mm D by 228mm L
WEIGHT: 378 grams
COUNTRY OF MANUFACTURE: China
WARRANTY: 90 days



PRODUCT RATING:



12-06-10: Added a photograph of all of the lenses -- now labelled as to their purpose.

12-07-10: Performed a spectrographic analyses.

12-08-10: Performed four (4) post-kill test spectrographic analyses of the laser diode to check for wavelength drift; also added a photograph of a very near-future test setup.

12-10-10: Moved all nonlaser spectra to their own web page.

12-11-10: Shot a video of it and a second video of it plus this Arctic unsuccessfully attempting to pop popcorn (at the request of a "high-up" at Wicked Lasers).

12-12-10: Shot another video of it plus a second video of it along with this Arctic {again} unsuccessfully attempting to pop popcorn (at the request of a "high-up" at Wicked Lasers); also added two photographs of the SmartSwitch™ button to show that some paint loss is already occurring.

12-13-10: Performed spectroscopy of the fluorescence of a tritium Glow Ring when irradiated with this laser.

12-14-10: Performed spectroscopy of the fluorescence of two objects when irradiated with this laser.

12-15-10: Performed spectroscopy of the fluorescence of two objects when irradiated with this laser.

12-16-10: Performed spectroscopy of the fluorescence of one object when irradiated with this laser; also derated it slightly due to CDRH noncompliance.

12-18-10: Performed spectroscopy of the fluorescence of two objects when irradiated with this laser.

01-14-11: Removed the three "popcorn failing to pop" videos by request of the manufacturer.

03-02-11: The long-term "kill test" is now underway.

03-03-11: The long-term "kill test" has now been completed -- the unit "failed" this test in that it refused to die. :)

03-04-11: Performed a second long-term "kill test".

03-05-11: Performed post-"kill test" spectroscopy (2x on "low" and 2x on "high") to check for wavelength drift.

06-12-11: Performed two more spectrographic analyses to pinpoint the wavelength with even more accuracy.

06-14-11: Finally got power measurements completed since acquiring a LaserBee meter yesterday.

06-26-11: Added two videos that the laser's manufacturer had requested.

12-03-11: Added two broadband spectra to verify that there is no emission beyond intended laser line.

02-24-12: Performed a short-term stability analysis at maximum CW output (for 600 seconds).

04-13-12: Performed four more spectrographic analyses with newer spectrometer software settings.
 
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jaylang11

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to pop corn you need to heat all sides evenly, try hot gluing it to a small motor and let it spin while the laser is on high power pointing at the corn. that should do the trick!
 

Leodahsan

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GREAT review but..
what is a DESTRUCTIVE TEST? :O


ps: you could correct the stars drawing (the 1st and 2nd one) :D
 
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to pop corn you need to heat all sides evenly, try hot gluing it to a small motor and let it spin while the laser is on high power pointing at the corn. that should do the trick!
I was informed of this need quite some time ago; as soon as I can get my hands on a small turntable (possibly one that rotates slowly enough to obviate the need for hot glue yet fast enough that the kernel does not burn on one spot, which I also do not have at my disposal), I'll shoot this video again. :)
 

The_LED_Museum

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BTTT: The long-term "kill test" has now been completed -- the unit "failed" this test in that it refused to die. :)

The "bump" is (in my opinion) warranted because this was a rather significant test and its outcome had the potential for widespread ramifications.
 

Trevor

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BTTT: The long-term "kill test" has now been completed -- the unit "failed" this test in that it refused to die. :)

The "bump" is (in my opinion) warranted because this was a rather significant test and its outcome had the potential for widespread ramifications.
My concerns would lie not in the diode (which is made by a large Japanese semiconductor company), but rather in the PCBs WL decided to use and in back-reflections from the uncoated optics found in the tips.

-Trevor
 
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I'd expect an average 445nm 700mW laser to last months without issue. You didnt really prove anything from a diode thats rated for thousands of hours. More WL spam in my opinion.

If you are not able to meter these lasers yourself, why not send them to one of the vets for proper readings. This way you can actually contribute a scientific conclusion. Without the REAL output we can not properly judge the results. But then again a REAL output reading would expose the fact the majority of Arctics are under power. And that would not be good for your spam/experiment. :whistle:
 

plexus

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On the other hand, running the LD under-spec but still >700mW gives a decent amount of power and protects WL from warranty claims. The benefits to the consumer are a more reliable laser with still a considerable amount of power. But, its caveat emptor - if someone wants more power, like the 1W-1.5W that some 445 builds are typical of, they should not buy a WL. Granted other companies are providing more power in their commercial products, like Dragon Lasers. Wicked does spec the Arctic to be 500-1000mW so they are operating in-spec, in that regard. So if you want more power from your 445, either buy from a different manufacture, someone on this board or build your own. But the WL Arctic is both in-spec based on their build specs and in-spec for the diode itself. Its just not the knock-your-socks off power these 445's are capable of (and that we crave).

Here is a decent review of the Dragon Spartan: http://laserpointerforums.com/f52/dragon-lasers-1w-spartan-54013.html
 
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Trevor

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On the other hand, running the LD under-spec but still >700mW gives a decent amount of power and protects WL from warranty claims. The benefits to the consumer are a more reliable laser with still a considerable amount of power. But, its caveat emptor - if someone wants more power, like the 1W-1.5W that some 445 builds are typical of, they should not buy a WL. Granted other companies are providing more power in their commercial products, like Dragon Lasers. Wicked does spec the Arctic to be 500-1000mW so they are operating in-spec, in that regard. So if you want more power from your 445, either buy from a different manufacture, someone on this board or build your own. But the WL Arctic is both in-spec based on their build specs and in-spec for the diode itself. Its just not the knock-your-socks off power these 445's are capable of (and that we crave).

Here is a decent review of the Dragon Spartan: http://laserpointerforums.com/f52/dragon-lasers-1w-spartan-54013.html
If someone at WL had done a bit of basic math, they'd have realized they're wasting 200mW+ by using a longer focal length collimation lens. 10% below spec would have been pretty good when considering other Chinese companies who care about customers as much as WL. ;)

-Trevor
 

Krogith

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I'd expect an average 445nm 700mW laser to last months without issue. You didnt really prove anything from a diode thats rated for thousands of hours. More WL spam in my opinion.

If you are not able to meter these lasers yourself, why not send them to one of the vets for proper readings. This way you can actually contribute a scientific conclusion. Without the REAL output we can not properly judge the results. But then again a REAL output reading would expose the fact the majority of Arctics are under power. And that would not be good for your spam/experiment. :whistle:
Thats exactly what I think on every one of his reviews. He does a lot of good work but we never see a LPM test and thats the most important part IMO...


What the crap is this showing us?

How are you reading output power but can't show the mW ? I don't get it???
 
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Its just more WL spam masqueraded as a review. I do find most of his reviews interesting, but this one is total propaganda.
 

Leodahsan

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If someone reviews a unit, it being a fail or not, they don't remove the videos...
wicked is known by removing all 'fails' about their products and leaving just the 'wins'. Thats what I'm talking about..
 




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