Welcome to Laser Pointer Forums - discuss green laser pointers, blue laser pointers, and all types of lasers



Newbie: Learn before I can burn

paul1598419

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
15,821
Points
113
Yeah, I've seen all this before now. My point is you are confusing 3D imagery with holography and they are NOT the same thing at all. Your first interactive display isn't even 3D, but just a 2D image reflected off of mylar to give the effect that there is something there. The company that is touting these "revolutionary" ideas don't seem to be going anywhere. It remains to be seen if some form of 3D imaging will be useful in medicine. We already have had these in the way of MRIs and PET scans as well a CT scans. I don't see this imagery taking hold in the medical community no matter how "cool" it looks to people who have not seen this before now. These are all just tricks to get you to think you are seeing something in 3D when holography is actually reconstructing the object wave that makes it truly a recreated image. I guess you can't know what I'm talking about unless you've been around real holograms like I have for many years. The ionization of air molecules isn't really all that new and it is not that amazing when you see it in person either.
 



CE5

Active member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
141
Points
28
Yeah, I've seen all this before now. My point is you are confusing 3D imagery with holography and they are NOT the same thing at all. Your first interactive display isn't even 3D, but just a 2D image reflected off of mylar to give the effect that there is something there.
That much was obviously explained in detail within the clip.
The company that is touting these "revolutionary" ideas don't seem to be going anywhere. It remains to be seen if some form of 3D imaging will be useful in medicine.
Again, these 'revolutionary' ideas are quite new, hence 'revolutionary'.
And it also appears as if real medical professionals have a different view and opinion than you do, when it comes to this emerging technology.
This clip also provides another look at the RealView prototype, or so it appears?

We already have had these in the way of MRIs and PET scans as well a CT scans. I don't see this imagery taking hold in the medical community no matter how "cool" it looks to people who have not seen this before now.
Well of course being so new and revolutionary this remains to be seen, but things are moving quite fast nowadays, agreed?
These are all just tricks to get you to think you are seeing something in 3D when holography is actually reconstructing the object wave that makes it truly a recreated image. I guess you can't know what I'm talking about unless you've been around real holograms like I have for many years.
Isn't that the way holography works. :thinking:
The ionization of air molecules isn't really all that new and it is not that amazing when you see it in person either.
IDK, looks pretty impressive to me.

~

 

paul1598419

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
15,821
Points
113
That much was obviously explained in detail within the clip. Again, these 'revolutionary' ideas are quite new, hence 'revolutionary'.
And it also appears as if real medical professionals have a different view and opinion than you do, when it comes to this emerging technology.
This clip also provides another look at the RealView prototype, or so it appears?


This is hilarious as you've used one "medical professional" from the company that is obviously looking for investors to make your point. Try to find an outside source that is touting this "revolutionary" (and here I'm being sarcastic) silly illusionary trick as something new and fantastic. You won't, because it's not.

Well of course being so new and revolutionary this remains to be seen, but things are moving quite fast nowadays, agreed? Isn't that the way holography works. :thinking:
Sometimes when there is a truly new breakthrough in medical technology, investors will climb all over themselves trying to invest in it as there's big money to be made, but this, I assure you, will languish.


IDK, looks pretty impressive to me.
Yes, I'm sure it does. Having worked with NMR. MRI, and other imaging technology, it seems pretty silly to me. I'd bet the farm that a year from now this will still have gone nowhere
 

CE5

Active member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
141
Points
28
This is hilarious as you've used one "medical professional" from the company that is obviously looking for investors to make your point. Try to find an outside source that is touting this "revolutionary" (and here I'm being sarcastic) silly illusionary trick as something new and fantastic. You won't, because it's not.
Umm, I'm finding this entire argument to be rather hilarious, but I digress. That "one medical professional" is Dr. (Elchanan Bruckheimer, MD) that is affiliated with and director of, Cardiac Catheterization at the Schneider Children's Medical Center, Israel.
And again, this is quite new and as such there are probably limited prototypes available, and since RealView, is an Israeli company it stands to reason that local MD's would be having first access. Also notice the DATE, that the vid clip was published "Published on Jun 7, 2017" so not that long ago at all! And also note that these Doctors (yes plural) are "part of the first ever clinical trials using 3D holograms." As notated on the clip.

Here is another Medical Professional. I have now presented another example. (still laughing?) And again notice the date published. And even though BOTH of these medical professionals are at the same facility, is more than likely due to that being where this device is undergoing it's initial clinical trials.
FWIW, I consider both of these medical professionals to be 'outside sources' and to not be 'from the company' as you are attempting to infer. Just because the vid is produced by the company does not automatically indicate that the medical professionals that are involved in the initial clinical trails are also affiliated with the company. That's rather silly to assume that, in an attempt to make your point. And there are also several more professional medical team members that are participating in these clinical trails- I could throw up a pic of the group, but whatever.



Sometimes when there is a truly new breakthrough in medical technology, investors will climb all over themselves trying to invest in it as there's big money to be made, but this, I assure you, will languish.
Since RealView, has already completed a very respectable ROUND A investment for $10 Million, I feel it's safe to say that some climbing has already taken place, so your assurances have a very hollow ring to them.

RealView Imaging ? Start-Up Nation Finder

Round B, funding will no doubt be as successful, once clinical trials etc; have been completed.

Yes, I'm sure it does. Having worked with NMR. MRI, and other imaging technology, it seems pretty silly to me. I'd bet the farm that a year from now this will still have gone nowhere
I'll take that bet! BTW, just a ballpark number- how much do you figure your farm is presently worth? Although the time frame for having to jump through the hoops and hurdles for the FDA, and other approvals will have more of an impact on it's actual commercial release production date. Best to do the trials first (as they are now just recently doing) than to start the production line before the necessary required approvals and results from the clinical trials are even completed eh?
But seriously, I've researched for this as possibly being some sort of "silly illusionary trick" hokum as you are insisting, but there is none to be found because it isn't.

What I did find (via a simple google search) was dozens upon dozens of various organizations, News, Business, Medical etc; that have been taking notice in very pro and positively exciting ways. (unlike yourself) So the facts as presented by the internet ie; the world, have and continue to resoundingly disagree with your pessimistic point of view.

I also found mention of RealView, in the imerging global holographic TV market

TL;DR It's you against the world paul. And my bet is hedged upon the world.

And p.s. @Kermit101, please pay no attention to us old goats, we're just enjoying a rather laid back headbutting session. :D
 

paul1598419

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
15,821
Points
113
You see no conflict of interest in this being a Israeli company and the two physicians just happen to be from the same hospital in Israel? Many physicians have the opportunity to travel overseas and could have easily given their thumbs up to this endeavor, but, no..... just these two (unrelated) doctors. And they have $10 million in start up money. That is chump change in the world of medical imagery. The FDA will have little to do with approving this concept as it is mostly already approved technology that these people are trying to repackage as something new. It is 3D, not holographic, imagining using old tricks that until now were considered parlor tricks. Actually, they still are. Yes, I am still laughing. The fact that you believe in this as "the next great holographic technology in medical imaging" is so full of erroneous claims and has not made its way to any medical journal of importance by itself, alone, SHOULD give you pause. Meh. We shall see. :crackup:


Remember this thing so next year when it is still looking for more investors, I can say "I told you so".
 
Last edited:

CE5

Active member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
141
Points
28
You see no conflict of interest in this being a Israeli company and the two physicians just happen to be from the same hospital in Israel?
I do believe that I already addressed that in my last post, and again- no I do not see conflicts of interest or anything other than you continuing to grasp at straws.

Many physicians have the opportunity to travel overseas and could have easily given their thumbs up to this endeavor, but, no
I can't really determine if you are being facetious here with such an absurd statement as this, c'mon paul really? Are you saying that physicians, as a standard practice jet all round the world to place hands on all the medical devices and services that are under development worldwide? :confused:

..... just these two (unrelated) doctors.
And of course first you challenge me with only providing one, and now the same challenge with only providing two, and etc; ad nauseam it is clear that you will continue to make unsuccessful attempts to challenge and discredit anything that does not in some way support or provide stuffing to prop up your straw man argument.

And they have $10 million in start up money. That is chump change in the world of medical imagery. The FDA will have little to do with approving this concept as it is mostly already approved technology that these people are trying to repackage as something new.
So $10 Mil Round 'A' funding is chump change? Mmm Ookaayy. Perhaps consider acquainting yourself with how the funding steps actually work, rather than making another demonstrably uninformed statement. $10mil is again a respectable showing for any startup, medical or otherwise. And funny that you should also say that the FDA, will have little to do with approving this concept- this is another preposterous statement since the FDA, continues to have tremendous influence on practically anything to do with the medical and health care services. As stipulated and mandated and required by law, the FDA routinely and continually approves new devices and services that have similarly been in use and practice for ages. This includes but is in no way limited to any xray, ultrasound, monitoring devices etc; and on and on. I could provide a link to the voluminous references and reasons why this is standard practice but really why should I? since this would simply amount to be like throwing a large volume of readily accessible common knowledge towards your pile of straw.

It is 3D, not holographic, imagining using old tricks that until now were considered parlor tricks. Actually, they still are. Yes, I am still laughing. The fact that you believe in this as "the next great holographic technology in medical imaging" is so full of erroneous claims
You continue to parrot this theme but provide no specifics, so I will continue to agree with how the rest of the world (including qualified experts) views are concerning this emerging development.

and has not made its way to any medical journal of importance by itself, alone, SHOULD give you pause. Meh. We shall see. :crackup:
I'll let the readers decide if this is like a shooting fish in a barrel, or a turkey shoot.

Would the US National Library of Medicine & the National Institutes of Health PubMed Dot GOV be a sufficiant 'medical journal of importance' for you? There are of course several other 'medical journals of importance' that I could quote but c'mon paul, I derive no pleasure in dragging this rag doll argument that you are fielding through the brambles. Hence, this will be my final post on the matter.

Do yourself (and me) a small favor and at least read this ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed. "CONCLUSIONS: This study demonstrates, for the first time, the feasibility of generating high quality, clinically relevant, 3D real-time colour dynamic holograms in a standard clinical setting with real patient volumetric data. The impact of computer-generated holography needs to be evaluated in controlled clinical trials."

Since you obviously refuse to listen to me and flail about mocking my words, perhaps you will heed what this bonafide, official, and dare I say, determining authority has to say on this matter. A little research goes a long way. And after all, You did just ask for it.

BTW, just out of curiosity, would you happen to originally hail from Missouri?

Remember this thing so next year when it is still looking for more investors, I can say "I told you so".
Sigh, yes- you have already told myself and others here many things.

FWIW Paul, I still have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for you and towards all others like yourself, (and myself, yes it's permissible to have self respect) that picked up the batons decades ago and soldiered on with research and advancements not just in holography but in all endeavours ie; life in general. But also, there always comes the time when the batons need to be handed off to the next generations. Attempts to hold onto the batons often does not end well for the bearer, or others that are in the exact same race, and sometimes leads to the bad form use of the batons as cudgels. We can and should continue to support in any and all ways possible for as long as we can these next generations, because truly that is in fact precisely where our mutual future awaits all of us.

Peace.
 

paul1598419

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
15,821
Points
113
For the sake of brevity I'll use the following clips as examples =


And also from as far back as 2011, the following clip talks about interaction with 'Plasma'.


Now since the RealView, tech appears to be using a semi? parabolic reflector- would that not focus and place the image over the table of the device allowing for interaction? And it also appears as if the RealView, display device is will/also be located within a specially designed room/space and would or could that also not achieve the effect of placing the viewer 'within' the hologram and thereby allow interaction with it? I'm interested in this debate, since I've not worked directly with holograms in the creation and implementation of the hardware other than to don a pair of VR, goggles to interact with the current widely available Low Tech, soon to be obsolete and replaced VR.

Now the following clip(s) are to illustrate the use of a rotating platter. Since it appears as if the RealView, tech also employs some sort of platter? (with the raised puck in the center) Volumetrics?


And perhaps to a similar? extant =


https://voxon.co/

Now obviously the platter in the USC, clip has a hard mirror mounted on it and is spinning it to achieve the optical effect. Although it does not* appear as if the RealView, tech has any hard reflector mounted on the platter/platform?

And lets talk about the use of ultrasonics (Volumetric Haptic) now as well =



Now is it possible that RealView, is using a fusion of these technologies?

Because it appears as if RealView, has developed the technology to crack this nut wide open.


I would hazard a guess that RealView, is employing Ultrasonics (Volumetric Haptic) technologies in a spinning platter type config to help achieve their proprietary interactive imaging effect.

Much of what I've presented above was occurring in real time, so I imagine that a real time view of the heart, or any other organ being imaged via an MRI, CTscan, ultrasound etc; device and can then be fed to the input of the RealView projector, to render the interactive 3D image in real time as well.

Going back to this number of examples you used to show that real time holograms existed and the fact that you actually looked up Dennis Gabor as the creator of modern holography, but neglected to read the physics involved in producing them is a good place to start this over. That's too bad as it would have shortened this considerably.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography

If you will read this in its entirety you will see the Fauxolograms or false 3D imaging that has been called holograms but just aren't because they are optical illusions. Holography never uses lenses to project an image as the whole image is reconstructed by the optical wave front produced by light acting on a photographic plate that has interference patterns embedded in the emulsion that has been developed.

I never said that 3D imaging of anatomic structures doesn't exist, as it has for many years as you have also shown. Computer aided 3D imagery is part and parcel of many types of imagery available to physicians for years. But, they are not holograms or holography. This is because the physics involved in making these holograms has not changed and so cannot be handed off to the next generation of physicists and engineers to produce something new that goes against the physics involved in holography.

I think you are getting caught up in semantics of the use of the word "holography". In its strict sense it is what I gave you the link to. But, because the word is associated with 3D imagery, it is often used in ways that are not correct and should just be called 3D imagery.

To sum it all up, I agree that 3D imagery exists in the medical field and has in many forms for years. This is especially true of computer assisted 3D imagery. What these people in Israel are doing is yet another iteration of this continuing field. Whether or not it will be the next BIG thing remains to be seen. I, personally, don't find it particularly innovative when stacked against what is already out there. No one can tell at this juncture as there simply isn't enough information out yet to show that yet.

I hope this will help to inform you as to what a hologram is and to what it is not. And I am personally tired of this back and forth with you. Take care.
 
Last edited:




Top