Materials in animal chips? Anyone?

[Morgan]

Hi All,

This is probably going to be the most bizarre request of the day but here goes...


Does anyone know where I can find details about the materials used in the making of ID chips for implanting in animals?

Why do I need to know, you ask?

Well, six years ago I had one implanted just under the skin, between my right shoulder-blade and spine and it has remained there quite happily ever since. It now turns out that I need to have an MRI scan due to a damaged knee. I didn't think it would be a problem but the hospital now want details of the materials as they are worried that either, 1. The chip could move, causing damage to me, or, 2. It may damage their very expensive machine.

I can totally see both reasons to be cautious but I'm having trouble finding the info required. Can anyone help? Suggestions or links will be appreciated.

M

 

[jamilm9]

MythBusters - Exploding RFID chip
i watched the episode.

 

[Morgan]

Excellent! That tells me what I thought I knew...

... That an MRI scan will be no problem.

Just need to convince the hospital!

Thanks,

M

 

[GoRdOn_B]

are you talking about the verichip..
you have one of those inside you?

 

[nikokapo]

They use RFID chips but jamil already answered that. You can do a search on wikipedia for RFID for more info

 

[jamilm9]

i've always wanted a chip in my hand.

 

[nikokapo]

i've always wanted a chip in my hand.

HIGH FIVE! *crack!*

 

[brtaman]

Hi All,

This is probably going to be the most bizarre request of the day but here goes...


Does anyone know where I can find details about the materials used in the making of ID chips for implanting in animals?

Why do I need to know, you ask?

Well, six years ago I had one implanted just under the skin, between my right shoulder-blade and spine and it has remained there quite happily ever since. It now turns out that I need to have an MRI scan due to a damaged knee. I didn't think it would be a problem but the hospital now want details of the materials as they are worried that either, 1. The chip could move, causing damage to me, or, 2. It may damage their very expensive machine.

I can totally see both reasons to be cautious but I'm having trouble finding the info required. Can anyone help? Suggestions or links will be appreciated.

M

To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men
are different from one another and do not live alone--to a time when truth
exists and what is done cannot be undone:
From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of
Big Brother, from the age of doublethink--greetings!

 

[HIMNL9]

I only see one problem, here .....

MRI uses BIG electromagnetic fields, and RFID chips are powered with electromagnetic fields ..... ok, the inductance that is inside the chip is very small, but better you ask the producer of the chip, for know if a field like the one used in MRI machines can burn or damage the chip itself, constraining you, then, to take it away and substitute it .....

And also, ask if the MRI machine can be damaged from any resonance caused from the LC unit inside the chip, just for be sure ..... frequencies must be very different, but asking before, is never bad thing

HIGH FIVE! *crack!*

or, maybe, "OUCH", if the chip corner punch a hole in your hand, LOL

 

[T_Warne]

...Well, six years ago I had one implanted just under the skin, between my right shoulder-blade and spine and it has remained there quite happily ever since...
M

I had my dog "chipped" just in case he ever gets lost. May I ask why you have yours?

 

[Morgan]

After getting in contact with the distributors of these chips, (Bayer Healthcare), I received the email below from the manufacturers. It seems pretty consice and should give the hospital all they need to do a suitable risk assessment for a scan. As I have only forwarded it on today, I have no results as yet but will let you all know.

As for the reasons behind having a chip implanted... The best reason is that these things are available, so why not? Sure, they are primarily for IDing animals but there will come a time when there will be a choice between a passport/credit card/ID card/medical bracelet/etc., and a handy chip that can be implanted.

GoRdOn_B mentioned the Verichip. I looked into this when I first had a mind to implant myself and, at the time, this was a chip designed for human use to store medical info on an EPROM chip. (My chip, and most similar, are just a ROM chip that refers you to a database with specific information.). These were not available easily or cheaply in the UK at the time but would certainly have chosen it had things been different.

It also brought to mind some philosophical questions about ownership. On the forms that are completed to register the chip, I had to put my, "breed", as human and that I actually owned myself. (Therefore not being owned by anyone else!). Unfortunately, PetLog, (the database run by Bayer), would not allow me to register as they felt it was irresponsible of them and would encourage idiots like me to get implanted! I can't say I blamed them actually. It was not the purpose of their database to store human chip-ees!

Still, the experiment was a success and is still running. No ill effects have been experienced since implantation by a professional and reputable tatooist and body-piercer. The only hiccup has been this MRI but feel sure I'll have more to report soon on this one. (I wonder if the hospital will be curious enough to spend a little time on my scan for their own information? Ah. It's the NHS isn't it. Probably not then...! Still, their loss...!)


The email, (Note the last line. I seem to be getting a lot of the, "Whatever I've just said, if things go wrong, it's not my fault.", disclaimer.):

"Dear Morgan Rogers,

The microchip is made up of a biocompatible glass capsule containing a ferrite rod and copper coil with a silicon chip.

The following information has been received from the manufacturer DATAMARS:

We inform you that together with the Swiss clinic Ars Medica (Gravesano, Switzerland) we investigated the behaviour of various types of transponder (in the high-frequency and low-frequency range) during magnetic resonance treatment of patients.
The aim of this study was to detect any mutual interference between the transponders and the MRI scanners, and quantify its effects.

For the Low Frequency transponders with a ferrite coil (typical for animal identification) following results have been noticed:

1) these transponders are lightly attracted by the magnetic field of the MRI equipment which tends to align the ferrite with the magnetic lines. Bigger is the ferrite, stronger is the effect. The intensity of the equipment used for the test was of 1 Tesla.
A stronger magnetic field will certainly increase this effect.

2) The transponder creates important artifacts on the image. A dark shadow is clearly visible around the transponder that obscures part of the image.

3) A small and temporary modification of the resonance frequency has been observed. The transponder is anyway readable and the animal code is not modified. The effect on the resonance frequency disappeared after about 1 day.

4) No heating up of the pieces and no damages on the MRI system have been observed.

Based on this study we suppose that we have no risks for animals implanted with Tracer microchips (both the polymer Tracer Advance and bioglass Tracer Classic) to go through an MRI scanner.
It is to be noticed that Datamars doesn't undertakes any responsibility outside the animal application field.


Best Regards

Animal Health"


There you go... Thanks for reading. I'll update soon and try to find the photo with fresh marks so you can see where it is implanted.

M

 

[HIMNL9]

Uhm, well, i cannot speak about ID chips, but i can say you a thing about money rfid keys (the ones of automated drinks distributors), that i had times ago, and that are basically based on the same technology.

I ruined 3 of them, in few months, loosing all the money stored, just cause i forgot to have them in the same pocket where i put neodymium magnets (recovered from mangled HDD) ..... the first one was non-working, and the last 2 ones changed something in the programming, or stored data, and becomed "unrecognizable key" mode .....

i really don't have any animal ID chip at hand, actually, for make experiments, but may be happy to put the hands on one of them, carry it with some ND magnets for a bit, and then see if it's still readable ..... i just hope they have protected better the chip, compared with the ones used in money keys

 

[Morgan]

In post #11, section 3 of the email I received; it says that the chip was still readable and the code unmodified so I'm guessing these chips have to be pretty rhobust. I get the feeling that the magnets in an MRI are quite a bit stronger than an HDD! Still, it may be fun to try and buy drinks with mine? Rubbing up against the drinks machine like a cat might look a little odd but if it quenches my thirst....

M


(Still not heard from the hospital yet )

 

[HIMNL9]

In post #11, section 3 of the email I received; it says that the chip was still readable and the code unmodified so I'm guessing these chips have to be pretty rhobust. I get the feeling that the magnets in an MRI are quite a bit stronger than an HDD!

Yes, they use magnets more hard that HDD ones, but the intensity is proportional to the square of the distance ..... you never get in direct contact with these magnets, where instead my keys was sticked together with the magnets in the same pocket ..... probably the field at them was much more intense, in this conditions.

Anyway, i see in that email that they say:

The transponder creates important artifacts on the image. A dark shadow is clearly visible around the transponder that obscures part of the image.

This mean that they already tried them in a MRI machine, otherwise they cannot know this ..... and also, you can show it to the doctor and say them that, being already tested, it's proved that the machine don't become damaged.

The only point, now, is how much the core become attracted from the field of the MRI head ..... can procure pain ? ..... you need to ask the doctors, about this ..... if it can risk to procure too much pain, can be take in consideration to remove it, made the MRI scan, and reimplant it.

 

[bobhaha]

3) A small and temporary modification of the resonance frequency has been observed. The transponder is anyway readable and the animal code is not modified. The effect on the resonance frequency disappeared after about 1 day.

I lol'ed!

 

[Morgan]

Bad news! The hospital are not prepared to risk it. As stated in the email from the manufacturers, they have tested them in a 1 Tesla MRI scanner. The one at the hospital is rated at 1.5 Tesla. As the doctors are physiCIANS and not physiCISTS, they are not prepared to put my health at risk. They are only thinking of me of course and not their expensive equipment. Looks like they are going have to stick a camera into my knee instead! Yes, I could remove the chip but as they will probably end up cutting my knee open anyway, it seems better to let them do it now. After all, it will give the best view of the problem. Pity, I was looking forward to the scan!

Still worth writing to the manufacturers again to see if they want to test a live subject.

Guess that's the end of this thread.

If anything new worth posting comes to light, I'll report back.

Thanks,

M