Self focusing effects... And a much better scattering mechanism ..
Since its NASA sponsored, this is one of those loopholes where nobody is going to be so concerned, use the "educational use" loophole..
Steve
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Low Level Laser Therapy inquiry
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Self focusing effects... And a much better scattering mechanism ..
Since its NASA sponsored, this is one of those loopholes where nobody is going to be so concerned, use the "educational use" loophole..
Steve
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Fine by me.
Here it is in a zip (forum doesn't accept large PDF)
Here it is in a zip (forum doesn't accept large PDF)
I'm glad to see some open minds here these days. One of the oldest LLLT sites is at laser therapy internet guide - LaserWorld - The Low Level Laser Therapy - LLLT - Internet Guide . It is the Swedish Medical Laser Society. Dr. Jan Tunér, a board member of WALT, co-wrote the first, big, thorough, laser therapy book for clinicians and doctors about fifteen years ago. On their main page, they have a link that says: Laser pointers for home use. The link goes to a book that tells people how to use laser pointers for home care. If laserpointerforums.com is a site that focuses on laser safety, you may need to come up with a policy statement about how far one may go in this direction. It is not a fad, it is a trend, and this board is going to become more inundated with such questions as time goes on.
I am MD and study acupuncture for 4 years, at my 35 years old (58 y/o now) I am using lasers devices since 20 years ago, -with eye protection of course, for me and my patients- if you put in acupuncture points has a effect like stimulation, or in wounds or degenerative tissues, the same: stimulation of repair, I am using a device one physicist friend of mine made, 100 mW, 905 nm and pulsed, several pulses, in fact this science in LLLT is very new and all this stuff about pulsed lasers is new terrain, some one of the forum tell the important fact is the mW and the nm, agree with that, if is continuous regimen like the pointers, the user can move the ppointer or flahlight like he wish and do properties of pulses, very low frecuency like 0.5 Hz or maximum of 5 Hz ---the limit is the fast you can move your hand---- the prices are very high if the manufacturer said: "medical lasers", I appreciate a lot if some one of the forum can made to me, or modify with little modifications one model in existence ---(like put conection to electricity instead of bateries), 808 nm 100 mW, 850nm in continous regimen, will be OK, I assume all legal responsability of the application, my e mail is drmacor@gmail.com (I don't know the rules about put my web site and e mail on this post), I can share my medical experience with my laser with the community
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about acupuncture I study a professional course for MDs, include traditional concepts and scientific approach, this scientific approach allowed me understand partially how the input of several wavelenghts of lasers ----LEDs are not studied so much but this lack of research don't imply don't has effect on living systems---activate the cellular metabolism by activation of mollecules photoacceptors in the mitochondria (cytochromes) increasing the production of ATP and in some way stimulate the tissue where the laser is applied
Benm
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I find it confusing why you would need to use laser in the near-IR (say 1000-800nm) laser for any kind of therapy. Both sunlight and incandescent bulbs output large amounts of light at these wavelenghts, probably more than you could ever safely apply using a laser.
As far as i know there is no reason a specific wavelength is required for biointeraction, so using a laser would only increase the amount of danger compared to using IR LEDs, lightbulbs and whatever other non-collimated source operates in this range.
As far as i know there is no reason a specific wavelength is required for biointeraction, so using a laser would only increase the amount of danger compared to using IR LEDs, lightbulbs and whatever other non-collimated source operates in this range.
the use is in acupuncture, acupoints are small areas of the body, in this tradition before electricity the acupuncturist in China use heat with "moxibustion" -search the word in the web- or heat the acupuncture needles, I heat the needles with halogen lamps, with cigarette lighter, hair dryer, but I don't like smoke in my office not either have time to stay with the dryer, so I use laser to provide energy, the indicatios are the same like "moxibustion", this can substitute heat, in my experience has worth, is easy and fast, for example the acupuncturist can provide 1 J in 10 seconds (100 mW x 10 sec) for acupoint
how I explain?? if you stimulate the acupoints with laser is very specific and precise the stimulation, if you put a lamp is very wide and don't penetrate, may be the LEDS are cheap option but are less studied, but you are righ, I am searching
1) cheap options to expensive medical lasers
2) fast stimulation options
3) acupuncture needles substitutes ---this only to the stimulation modalities of puncture with needles, the needle is very versatile and isn't replaced with lasers of any wavelenght
4) this kind of laser use is for professionals in acupuncture or rehabilitation/physical medicine ---of course with professional preparation---
5) about 4) I am professional in health but may be you members know better the technical details of light and devices and I know better the effect in clinical ground
5) we are in 21 century, we should evolve and....the health professionals and the patients like technology, trust me, we the MDs use more dangerous devices and thecnologies and drugs...the point is we prepare to use this ---this is nothing if use with appropiate caution
how I explain?? if you stimulate the acupoints with laser is very specific and precise the stimulation, if you put a lamp is very wide and don't penetrate, may be the LEDS are cheap option but are less studied, but you are righ, I am searching
1) cheap options to expensive medical lasers
2) fast stimulation options
3) acupuncture needles substitutes ---this only to the stimulation modalities of puncture with needles, the needle is very versatile and isn't replaced with lasers of any wavelenght
4) this kind of laser use is for professionals in acupuncture or rehabilitation/physical medicine ---of course with professional preparation---
5) about 4) I am professional in health but may be you members know better the technical details of light and devices and I know better the effect in clinical ground
5) we are in 21 century, we should evolve and....the health professionals and the patients like technology, trust me, we the MDs use more dangerous devices and thecnologies and drugs...the point is we prepare to use this ---this is nothing if use with appropiate caution
OF COURSE the use of medical lasers has legal issues and need aprove of the health authorities of each country, this is important in commercial intention, so so....let this devices in the intention was made....but appreciate any comment to my posts
Benm
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I am roughly familiar with acupuncture - i have no idea about any viable mechanism of action, but the general procecdure is familiar. I suppose its difficult to integrate the concepts of accupuncture with the general ideas of laser safey and laser effects on tissue.
If you want any valuable advise on what laser to use under which circumstance, it should at least be clear what the biochemical target is, so we can consider if the laser will actually be able to reach this target, and if so interact with it.
If the target is, for example, a mitochondrion on the surface of a bone, you need to aim extremely well to concentrate laser power on that particular spot, 'missing' all mitochondria in the skin, adipose tissues etc on the way there. Such aiming techniques are available for radiotherapy of cancer, but i think that may be beyond the scope of this forum.
If you want any valuable advise on what laser to use under which circumstance, it should at least be clear what the biochemical target is, so we can consider if the laser will actually be able to reach this target, and if so interact with it.
If the target is, for example, a mitochondrion on the surface of a bone, you need to aim extremely well to concentrate laser power on that particular spot, 'missing' all mitochondria in the skin, adipose tissues etc on the way there. Such aiming techniques are available for radiotherapy of cancer, but i think that may be beyond the scope of this forum.
I understand is complicated explain
1) the exactly mechanism of action of acupuncture is still not fully understood I know several explanation out of the scope of this forum, and are scientific "speculations"
2) about the effect in mitochondrion is a fact but you are right, to reach a bone away from the surface you should destroy the midle tissues
3) so, for the effect in bones and tissues away the acupuncture point the explanation should be other, ....in this point acupuncture is a traditional medicine the science explain the effect at distance by a) the nervous system (local, segmental and supra segmental effects, it means in spinal cord and brain), but,...the next is speculation when you enter in full in this issue and try explain the full range of phenomena implicated in acupuncture...other paradigm is b) the electrical properties of the body, the semiconductor properties of the tissues in particular the conective tissue, in the laser case the photo electric properties of tissues, and a third paradigm will be c) the conections of tissues has explanation in the embriologic development, in one primigenious state the tissues are conected and in the evolution of the embryo to adult stage remain conected by the conective tissue (that conect all the body) and his semiconductor properties of "bioelectrical" signals
so, is complicated explain, so much speculation and for this reasons acupuncture is still a traditional modality of chinese medicine and is entering little step by little step in mainstream medicine, in my country (Mexico) is a medical specialty and in USA several top ten medical schools like Harvard are offering courses in acupuncture
1) the exactly mechanism of action of acupuncture is still not fully understood I know several explanation out of the scope of this forum, and are scientific "speculations"
2) about the effect in mitochondrion is a fact but you are right, to reach a bone away from the surface you should destroy the midle tissues
3) so, for the effect in bones and tissues away the acupuncture point the explanation should be other, ....in this point acupuncture is a traditional medicine the science explain the effect at distance by a) the nervous system (local, segmental and supra segmental effects, it means in spinal cord and brain), but,...the next is speculation when you enter in full in this issue and try explain the full range of phenomena implicated in acupuncture...other paradigm is b) the electrical properties of the body, the semiconductor properties of the tissues in particular the conective tissue, in the laser case the photo electric properties of tissues, and a third paradigm will be c) the conections of tissues has explanation in the embriologic development, in one primigenious state the tissues are conected and in the evolution of the embryo to adult stage remain conected by the conective tissue (that conect all the body) and his semiconductor properties of "bioelectrical" signals
so, is complicated explain, so much speculation and for this reasons acupuncture is still a traditional modality of chinese medicine and is entering little step by little step in mainstream medicine, in my country (Mexico) is a medical specialty and in USA several top ten medical schools like Harvard are offering courses in acupuncture
Benm, appreciate your observations, thanks:
the target is one cm away the surface or two cm, like if you put a superficial needle
I am using the 905 nm 100 mW, pulsed ---several pulses in the range of 160 to 10,000 Hz-- but I know there are devices that use continuous regimen, for that I want try with laser pointers or laser modules in 100 mW
what I don´t know is about the effect of the dot because in my actual laser device the beam has divergence, so, is lose by like 15-20 cms away,
I don´t know if a dot with 100 mW will burn and destroy the skin and subcutaneous tissue ---in the case of laser pointers of 100 mW--
my intention is put for 10 seconds like I am doing now with my pulsed laser, by theway the duty factor allows the mJ are the same in any frecuency
in your experience --or any experience--- you think the skin will be burned in 10 seconds with 100 mW??
the target is one cm away the surface or two cm, like if you put a superficial needle
I am using the 905 nm 100 mW, pulsed ---several pulses in the range of 160 to 10,000 Hz-- but I know there are devices that use continuous regimen, for that I want try with laser pointers or laser modules in 100 mW
what I don´t know is about the effect of the dot because in my actual laser device the beam has divergence, so, is lose by like 15-20 cms away,
I don´t know if a dot with 100 mW will burn and destroy the skin and subcutaneous tissue ---in the case of laser pointers of 100 mW--
my intention is put for 10 seconds like I am doing now with my pulsed laser, by theway the duty factor allows the mJ are the same in any frecuency
in your experience --or any experience--- you think the skin will be burned in 10 seconds with 100 mW??
Cyparagon the placebo effect is true in any medical act,
I am not a "believer" I see improves in medical disorders like reduction in diabetic ulcers or pain more than expected by placebo
in fact LLLT isn't good for any problem I should select very cautious the patients and disorders
I appreciate your advice in areas of expertise I don't dominate
for example now I want search a simple device with continuous wave in red like 570 or 550 ---or some close nm-- or IR in 808, 830, 850 nm, one question I have for the members is :
you think in this wavelenghts, 100 mW applied directly on the skin for ten seconds will burn the skin ??? the device I am using now is pulsed, 905 nm, 100 mw, and the dot has DIVERGENCE as you retire the dispositive of the target and don't burn the skin
I am not a "believer" I see improves in medical disorders like reduction in diabetic ulcers or pain more than expected by placebo
in fact LLLT isn't good for any problem I should select very cautious the patients and disorders
I appreciate your advice in areas of expertise I don't dominate
for example now I want search a simple device with continuous wave in red like 570 or 550 ---or some close nm-- or IR in 808, 830, 850 nm, one question I have for the members is :
you think in this wavelenghts, 100 mW applied directly on the skin for ten seconds will burn the skin ??? the device I am using now is pulsed, 905 nm, 100 mw, and the dot has DIVERGENCE as you retire the dispositive of the target and don't burn the skin
Benm
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I don't believe in acupuncture and such myself, but i suppose that if you practise these things with lasers/light, it would be prudent to assure safety regardless of effectiveness:
You need to be careful with the wavelength, even at 100 mW when focussed onto a small (1mm diameter?) spot. Light with a wavelength over roughly 800 nm is not usually dangerous as it penetrates both the epidermis and fairly deep into the soft tissue below it.
When you use, for example, green 532 nm light, the situation is different. This light is very well absorbed by hemoglobin, and could thermally damage capilaries. It depends a bit on how sensitive you are, but it is possible to feel a 'sting' sensation from 100 mW of 532 hitting your skin (fingers, top of the hand).
With red light some care must be taken: 600-800 nm is not well absorbed by oxyhemoglobin, but it IS absorbed by desoxygemoglobin, potentially resulting in a heating effect when someones blood sat is not near 100%.
Pulseoxymeters make good use of this difference - they use a IR led as a control, and measure the absorbtion of red light by desoxyhemoglobin to calculate the oxygen saturation.
You need to be careful with the wavelength, even at 100 mW when focussed onto a small (1mm diameter?) spot. Light with a wavelength over roughly 800 nm is not usually dangerous as it penetrates both the epidermis and fairly deep into the soft tissue below it.
When you use, for example, green 532 nm light, the situation is different. This light is very well absorbed by hemoglobin, and could thermally damage capilaries. It depends a bit on how sensitive you are, but it is possible to feel a 'sting' sensation from 100 mW of 532 hitting your skin (fingers, top of the hand).
With red light some care must be taken: 600-800 nm is not well absorbed by oxyhemoglobin, but it IS absorbed by desoxygemoglobin, potentially resulting in a heating effect when someones blood sat is not near 100%.
Pulseoxymeters make good use of this difference - they use a IR led as a control, and measure the absorbtion of red light by desoxyhemoglobin to calculate the oxygen saturation.
Thank you Benm, appreciate yout advice and your time, as I see for your comments you have high universitary degree
you said: "With red light some care must be taken: 600-800 nm is not well absorbed by oxyhemoglobin, but it IS absorbed by desoxygemoglobin, potentially resulting in a heating effect when someones blood sat is not near 100%."
I find this pointer in China: 660 nm, 200 mW, Continuous wave, adjustable focus, working time over 5000 hours for 35 USD --
in your experience do you think the heating effect burn the tissues with this device??
with 200 mW the exposition time will be 1 to 10 seconds
do you know this company: "Shenzhen Kelly Long Technology Co., Ltd." is the supplier in China
has A&V Checked and is gold supplier in alibaba
I see devices in the medical market until 500 mW (10 - 500 mW) in red and IR wavelenghts for biostimulation (for destroy like in surgery or hair removal are much more high, pulsed in Watts range)
I am not "nazi" MD "first no harm" if has danger the use of this devices I don't use in medical ground
but every device is intended for medical use should pass sanitary aprove and this increase the price so, in alternative medicines we use low tech devices like needles, even seeds in the ears (auriculotherapy) all this about laser modules or pointers are cheap compared with medical devices ---even the acupuncture needles should pass sanitary registration, is medical device class II--- sorry for my long posts, thanks in advance
you said: "With red light some care must be taken: 600-800 nm is not well absorbed by oxyhemoglobin, but it IS absorbed by desoxygemoglobin, potentially resulting in a heating effect when someones blood sat is not near 100%."
I find this pointer in China: 660 nm, 200 mW, Continuous wave, adjustable focus, working time over 5000 hours for 35 USD --
in your experience do you think the heating effect burn the tissues with this device??
with 200 mW the exposition time will be 1 to 10 seconds
do you know this company: "Shenzhen Kelly Long Technology Co., Ltd." is the supplier in China
has A&V Checked and is gold supplier in alibaba
I see devices in the medical market until 500 mW (10 - 500 mW) in red and IR wavelenghts for biostimulation (for destroy like in surgery or hair removal are much more high, pulsed in Watts range)
I am not "nazi" MD "first no harm" if has danger the use of this devices I don't use in medical ground
but every device is intended for medical use should pass sanitary aprove and this increase the price so, in alternative medicines we use low tech devices like needles, even seeds in the ears (auriculotherapy) all this about laser modules or pointers are cheap compared with medical devices ---even the acupuncture needles should pass sanitary registration, is medical device class II--- sorry for my long posts, thanks in advance
Benm
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I am not familiar with that manufacturer, but lets just assume it performs as advertised, 200 mW of 660 nm light output, focusable to a spot as small as you like.
Normally shining a laser like this onto skin is not dangerous since the light will penetrate (white) skin and be dispersed into the underlying tissues where its gradually absorbed. Bloodflow will remove any heat disposed off on absorbing tissues like bone pretty easily and without any noticeable ill effect.
If you are working in medical practice its not that clear though: some patient could come in with a problem, that is somehow linked to a lowered oxygen saturation in the blood. If the saturation is 90% or so, this person could appear healthy, but therapy with this particular laser could still cause unwanted effects like blood cloths in cappilaries from overheating.
I would say the chances of disaster are very slim at best.. but still, a cloth in a finger could make its way into some sensitive tissue like the brain and cause mayhem there. I would see no reasonable reason to risk such a scenario (however unlikely) unless there was clear, proven, benefit in the treatment.
I think this should be a consideration in all alternative medicine: even if there is no proof in the beneficial aspects, at least ensure there is no possible adverse aspect to whatever you are doing. Shining visible light at intense power density clearly poses some small risk to the patient, and should be avoided for that reason alone.
Compare it to taking a placebo tablet: this seems harmless, but what if it turns out that 1 in a million people actually get the tablet lodged in their windpipe and choke to death? I think that would be the point to reconsider a treatment causing no harm, despite the harm is not what you ever thought off.
Normally shining a laser like this onto skin is not dangerous since the light will penetrate (white) skin and be dispersed into the underlying tissues where its gradually absorbed. Bloodflow will remove any heat disposed off on absorbing tissues like bone pretty easily and without any noticeable ill effect.
If you are working in medical practice its not that clear though: some patient could come in with a problem, that is somehow linked to a lowered oxygen saturation in the blood. If the saturation is 90% or so, this person could appear healthy, but therapy with this particular laser could still cause unwanted effects like blood cloths in cappilaries from overheating.
I would say the chances of disaster are very slim at best.. but still, a cloth in a finger could make its way into some sensitive tissue like the brain and cause mayhem there. I would see no reasonable reason to risk such a scenario (however unlikely) unless there was clear, proven, benefit in the treatment.
I think this should be a consideration in all alternative medicine: even if there is no proof in the beneficial aspects, at least ensure there is no possible adverse aspect to whatever you are doing. Shining visible light at intense power density clearly poses some small risk to the patient, and should be avoided for that reason alone.
Compare it to taking a placebo tablet: this seems harmless, but what if it turns out that 1 in a million people actually get the tablet lodged in their windpipe and choke to death? I think that would be the point to reconsider a treatment causing no harm, despite the harm is not what you ever thought off.
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