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Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

HydroSean

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That article title is misleading, he was charged with a felony destruction of records. He destroyed evidence, not just simply his "browser history." It included non-circumstantial incriminating evidence that was linked to the Boston bombing terrorist attack. This is another reason why I hate media, they always lie and misconstrue the facts. It is not illegal to delete your browser history, it is illegal to delete your browser history if it contains evidence from an investigation:

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
(Added Pub. L. 107–204, title VIII, § 802(a), July 30, 2002, 116 Stat. 800.)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
 
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Encap

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That article title is misleading, he was charged with a felony destruction of records. He destroyed evidence, not just simply his "browser history." It included non-circumstantial incriminating evidence that was linked to the Boston bombing terrorist attack. This is another reason why I hate media, they always lie and misconstrue the facts. It is not illegal to delete your browser history, it is illegal to delete your browser history if it contains evidence from an investigation:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
Agree--media always or almost always twist the spin so much that they misrepresent entirely so many things.

Not illegal unless it is criminal destruction of records---makes good sense.
 

RedCowboy

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Not if they are yoga emails, you can scrub 33000 of those.
But the charge can get thrown on the stack if you are being investigate, and that can happen out of the blue, say if a hacker uses your machine as a slave unknown to you.

There are a lot of laws on the books and a lots of messed up stuff going on, doubt it if you want, but the policy is often to confiscate everything and lock up everyone and let the judge sort it out.

It happens more than you think.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=irs+seizes+woman's+entire+savings&qs=AS&pq=irs+seizes+&sk=PRES1&sc=8-11&sp=1&cvid=6F98B06C64C74AC5BED6E92A00353D89&FORM=QBLH

http://www.bing.com/search?q=police+confiscate+cash+from+citizens+driving&qs=AS&pq=police+confiscate&sk=PRES1&sc=8-17&sp=1&cvid=1B63E54085964CE292B842A0AC8C862C&FORM=QBRE
 
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Razako

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I usually try to walk the fine line between super paranoid and careless. I generally only use lasers outside for 5 minutes at max, and it's usually late at night(11pm-12am) when I do so. I do a quick visual scan of the sky for planes, and if there are lots of neighbors out in their yards/balconies I'll avoid using lasers.

You need to try as hard as possible to ensure that you won't be freaking out somebody close enough to call the cops on you. For that reason I highly advise against shining your laser into a neighbors yard/property. Even if you're not hurting anything, you never know if they'll freak out and call the cops saying "OMG my next door neighbor is shining a super powerful burning laser around in my yard! Do something before he blinds my cat!" Generally the sky or distant trees/mountains are the best options.
 
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steve001

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Does it make sense that hobbyist use of class IV "shinning a laser into the sky " is OK and non-hobbyist use of class IV "shinning a laser into the sky " is prohibited/not OK.
I may be wrong but I can not find any mention of the words "hobbyist" or an "other than hobbyist use" exclusion in the FDA regulations.
If not just wishful thinking please post a link to the regulation or even FDA descriptive web page that makes that distinction.


THe FDA, under 21 CFR 1040.10, FDA regulates three uses/applications of lasers:
1.Demonstrations including laser light shows and artistic displays
2.Surveying, leveling and alignment (SLA)
3.Medical

All laser pointers are covered under either the demonstration or SLA definitions or both:

"What is a laser pointer?
Laser pointers are hand-held lasers that are promoted for pointing out objects or locations. Such laser products can meet one of two definitions for laser products. The first is for “surveying, leveling, and alignment laser products” as defined by Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Section 1040.10(b)(39):
“Surveying, leveling, or alignment laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended or promoted for one or more of the following uses:
(i) Determining and delineating the form, extent, or position of a point, body, or area by taking angular measurement.
(ii) Positioning or adjusting parts in proper relation to one another.
(iii) Defining a plane, level, elevation, or straight line.”

Hand-held lasers promoted for entertainment purposes or amusement also meet the second definition, that of “demonstration laser products” as defined by 21 CFR 1040.10(b)(13):
“Demonstration laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition.”

If a laser product is promoted for pointing purposes, either of these definitions can apply" from FDA web page: Important Information for Laser Pointer Manufacturers

From summary on use of lasers outdoors found here: Laser Pointer Safety - Rules and regulations in the U.S. (For those using lasers outdoors)

"Demonstration lasers such as light shows and SLA lasers are often used outdoors. For these two applications, anyone using Class 3B or 4 lasers (above 5 mW for visible wavelengths) must fill out FDA Form 3147 to obtain a “variance.” The user describes the intended use and safety features in order to get permission from FDA to vary from the regulations.
Further, if the use is outdoors, FDA will not grant the variance unless the user submits a description of their laser operations to FAA using FAA Form 7400.2 and receives a letter of non-objection from FAA. In this indirect way, demonstration/lightshow lasers and SLA lasers are the only outdoor uses of lasers that are required under Federal law to get permission in advance from FAA."
You don't know how to read the law. The law clearly states what the FDA and CDRH has jurisdiction over. Read it until you understand. I read the rules several times years ago predating this forum to make sure I understood what was being said.
 
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steve001

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If you are shining your laser around your yard and neighbors complain, a cop can find a reason to take it and a law you are breaking, I hate it, I really do, but our free country is not so free anymore. " Creating a hazardous condition " covers anything they don't understand and you can be held in jail for up to 72 hours on nothing but suspicion without being charged.

I use lens flare hiders so anyone off to the side won't see the bright spot at the lens and beams disappear from the side.

I avoid attention as much as possible and usually don't take a laser with me but when I do I am very careful where I point it.

I do a lot of my outside wood burning art in the daytime.

I say this as fair warning, I wish we had true freedom and common sense ruled the day more like when I was a kid, cops should find a way to leave you alone, not find a way to screw with you, but they are also pressed to generate revenue and that should be changed but it will take a lot to get it done.

Actually a lot of it has to do with how you talk to them more than what's right or wrong as we have so many laws, hell I'm sure my burning a scrap of cardboard in my yard violates zoning law, ok so I will take the ticket if I must, even though it's my dam yard and my laser and I know what I am doing, still it's a violation to burn without a permit except in a bar-b-Q grill, but this varies place to place and people burn all kinds of stuff around here all the time, but if you tell some cop F you pig I will burn what I want in my own yard, then you may find out how shredded our 4th Amendment has become and how many BS overlapping laws there are.

In my opinion it's best to keep a low profile, show off here in a video, but don't do anything illegal in a video of course.
Well, if I were shining a laser within my property and a cop asked me to hand it over I would politely ask what law was broken? Now the cop would be hard pressed to name the law and since he or she did or did not witness the beam propagating no farther then the property they would not have legal cause to confiscate. Since no law was broken the cop has no legal authority. Not in all my years of owning lasers and that's a very long time I have never heard of any state imposing such a law.
 

HydroSean

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Well, if I were shining a laser within my property and a cop asked me to hand it over I would politely ask what law was broken? Now the cop would be hard pressed to name the law and since he or she did or did not witness the beam propagating no farther then the property they would not have legal cause to confiscate. Since no law was broken the cop has no legal authority. Not in all my years of owning lasers and that's a very long time I have never heard of any state imposing such a law.
In my experiences with police, they will find whatever reason to detain you and confiscate your goods. If you bring them to court they will always win unless there is indisputable evidence of what happened like a video of the evens prior, during, and after what happened. Chances are they will use your laser as evidence and show that it can blind, burn, and cause harm to others, inevitably you will lose unless your hire an expensive lawyer. I have found it best for me to always be fully cooperative with police and be as nice as possible.
 
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Razako

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The problem is how police can literally just take it, and then it's up to you to fight them in court. They do it all the time with cash, and would probably do the same for a laser. Hiring a lawyer to fight it out in court probably wouldn't even be worth it for the average handheld laser. We live in the 'free' country where police can just take your stuff and it's on you to prove legitimacy.
 
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HydroSean

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The problem is how police can literally just take it, and then it's up to you to fight them in court. They do it all the time with cash, and would probably do the same for a laser. Hiring a lawyer to fight it out in court probably wouldn't even be worth it for the average handheld laser. We live in the 'free' country where police can just take your stuff and it's on you to prove legitimacy.
It all depends on the circumstances, I'd bet that the majority of times when the police have seized money it was with reasonable suspicion like a drug deal or something shady going on. I can't think of an instance where someone would need to carry big wads of cash on hand ever.
 

Encap

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You don't know how to read the law. The law clearly states what the FDA and CDRH has jurisdiction over. Read it until you understand. I read the rules several times years ago predating this forum to make sure I understood what was being said.
PS you should consolidate your quadruple posts # 11, 12, 13 ,and 14 in this thread into one post. If you have been here since 2007 you know multiple posts a very frowned upon, set a bad example, and are annoying to read/go through.

I understand what you mean, but what you understood from long ago is not necessarily the case in the real world of 2016. Times, products, and technologies change/evolve. The laws pertaining to same change/evolve also.

I must take exception to your remarks. Quite to the contrary, I do know how to read the 2016 FDA related laws, rules, and regulations and I understand them.

There have been substancial changes to the FDA related laws rules, regulation and practices and policies since you last read them prior to June 2006 if your comment, " I read the rules several times years ago predating this forum" is true." This forum has existed since June 2006 so your undersrtanding of the FDA's position is out of date--has been for a long time. High powered Class IV hand held, battery powered laser pointers were not addressed at that time or prior times because there weren't any.

In mid-2010, consumer-affordable handheld Class 4 1 Watt 445nm battery operated portable lasers were introduced into commerce.
FDA/CDRH wanted a way to restrict these. They therefore developed a new interpretation of “surveying, leveling and alignment” (SLA) lasers. This is one of the three uses that FDA/CDRH can regulate (along with "medical" and “demonstration”).

The most important laws rules,and regulations covering U.S. lasers is 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11. These cover laser products, and three uses of lasers (demonstrations, medical and surveying/alignment). The Food and Drug Administration's "Center for Devices and Radiological Health" issues regulations and reviews variances based on these laws.

You need to read and study today's laws/rules to comprehend their meaning, interpretation, and 2016 FDA implementation practices and policies.
Here are the 1 April 2015 revisions of 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 as a start - see links below:
1040.10 CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
and
1040.11 CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
 
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Razako

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It all depends on the circumstances, I'd bet that the majority of times when the police have seized money it was with reasonable suspicion like a drug deal or something shady going on. I can't think of an instance where someone would need to carry big wads of cash on hand ever.
Buying a car from a private seller? Traveling across the country? Buying a gun?
Read this article and you'll understand just how twisted civil forfeiture is.
Taken - The New Yorker
 

steve001

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PS you should consolidate your quadruple posts # 11, 12, 13 ,and 14 in this thread into one post. If you have been here since 2007 you know multiple posts a very frowned upon, set a bad example, and are annoying to read/go through.

I understand what you mean, but what you understood from long ago is not necessarily the case in the real world of 2016. Times, products, and technologies change/evolve. The laws pertaining to same change/evolve also.

I must take exception to your remarks. Quite to the contrary, I do know how to read the 2016 FDA related laws, rules, and regulations and I understand them.

There have been substancial changes to the FDA related laws rules, regulation and practices and policies since you last read them prior to June 2006 if your comment, " I read the rules several times years ago predating this forum" is true." This forum has existed since June 2006 so your undersrtanding of the FDA's position is out of date--has been for a long time. High powered Class IV hand held, battery powered laser pointers were not addressed at that time or prior times because there weren't any.

In mid-2010, consumer-affordable handheld Class 4 1 Watt 445nm battery operated portable lasers were introduced into commerce.
FDA/CDRH wanted a way to restrict these. They therefore developed a new interpretation of “surveying, leveling and alignment” (SLA) lasers. This is one of the three uses that FDA/CDRH can regulate (along with "medical" and “demonstration”).

The most important laws rules,and regulations covering U.S. lasers is 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11. These cover laser products, and three uses of lasers (demonstrations, medical and surveying/alignment). The Food and Drug Administration's "Center for Devices and Radiological Health" issues regulations and reviews variances based on these laws.

You need to read and study today's laws/rules to comprehend their meaning, interpretation, and 2016 FDA implementation practices and policies.
Here are the 1 April 2015 revisions of 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 as a start - see links below:
1040.10 CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
and
1040.11 CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
I have kept up with the laws. Even with all that said you are still wrong. You are wrong to say battery operated handheld lasers of Class 3b and Class 4 cannot be sold after I directly linked to an FDA page stating they can as long as they are not promoted for pointing, surveying, alignment, entertainment, artistic, and amusement, leveling... . And they must meet if manufactured domestically FDA and CDRH safety standards. Here's an example of how to promote a laser.
CrystaLaser provides turn-key laser solutions for scientific, industrial and educational customers. The Crystal lasers feature with high efficiency, high reliability, high stability and excellent laser beam quality. The lasers are designed very easy to use, plug and play.
Even though this laser is intended for certain serious uses it can also be used for the things not sanctioned. It's all in how a laser is promoted.

As for multiple posts perhaps I will consolidate.
 
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diachi

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I have kept up with the laws. Even with all that said you are still wrong.
Explain why he's wrong and offer up some proof, don't just say "You're wrong.". Up to you to show why he's wrong.

As for multiple posts I only reply when someone else starts. I do not start multiple posts on the same topic.
You can still merge/edit the posts into one and delete the extra post. Or use the multi-quote button where possible.
 

steve001

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Explain why he's wrong and offer up some proof, don't just say "You're wrong.". Up to you to show why he's wrong.



You can still merge/edit the posts into one and delete the extra post. Or use the multi-quote button where possible.
Here. At the very bottom of this FDA linked page it reads: Page Last Updated: 03/12/2015
Can battery-operated, portable laser systems be sold in the U.S?

Yes, battery-operated, portable laser systems can be sold in the U.S., providing that they fully comply with the standard, are certified and reported, and are not Class IIIb lasers sold or promoted for pointing or amusement purposes.

Important Information for Laser Pointer Manufacturers
Note what is left out, Class 4 lasers. When you read a law you've got to not just understand what it says you can't do, but what it allows because it says nothing, such as a hobbyist building a MW laser without any safety features something the FDA has no jurisdiction over.
 

diachi

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Here. At the very bottom of this FDA linked page it reads: Page Last Updated: 03/12/2015 Note what is left out, Class 4 lasers. When you read a law you've got to not just understand what it says you can't do, but what it allows because it says nothing, such as a hobbyist building a MW laser without any safety features something the FDA has no jurisdiction over.
Just because class IV lasers aren't covered in that section doesn't mean they aren't covered elsewhere.

21 CFR 1040.11(b) and 1040.11(c), limit surveying, leveling, and alignment, and demonstration laser products to Class IIIa. This means that pointers are limited to 5 milliwatts output power in the visible wavelength range from 400 to 710 nanometers. There are also limits for any invisible wavelengths and for short pulses. Pointers may not exceed the accessible emission limits of CDRH Class IIIa or IEC1 Class 3R.
And from this page:

FDA requires that manufacturers of these lasers limit the power of the laser light to 5 milliWatts (often abbreviated as "mW") or less.
The label must display the laser power. It must be 5 milliWatts or less.
Do not purchase a handheld, battery-powered laser labeled with hazard Class IIIb, Class IV, Class 1M, Class 2M, Class 3B or Class 4 unless the manufacturer has an approval from FDA (called a "variance") to allow the purchase. Lasers approved for purchase in these classes often have very specific uses and may be sold under certain conditions known to the manufacturer. Sales without a variance, or sales that violate the conditions of the variance, ARE ILLEGAL.
 
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RedCowboy

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I build my own lasers for wood burning art, they are NOT for sale and for my personal use only, I don't even sell any art and I believe I am within the law, and burning wood in my basement I can just about guarantee no trouble, but if I attempted to do wood burning art at the public park I would be violating many other laws.

Public endangerment.
Public display without a permit.
Creating a hazardous condition.
etc......
 
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