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FrozenGate by Avery

Japanese car thread

Teej said:
Some things to consider:

They have changed how mpg is calculated and measured several times, so you can't compare the published mpg from older to newer cars.

That doesn't change real world measurements which is what I'm talking about. Those published ones are stupid.

They have changed how horsepower is measured several times, so you can't compare HP from older/newer cars either...at least not directly.

How exactly has that changed? One HP is one HP. Just like 1 ft-lb of torque is 1 ft-lb of torque. Older engines were not as powerful per liter. Thanks to fuel, lubricant, and design advances, they put out more power per liter.

The emissions controls reduced mpg, by a fraction, initially. The difference in exhaust though was huge, so, the net gain was a slight reduction in economy with an enormous reduction in pollution.

Electric cars have to be charged with electricity...and, if that comes from a coal fired power plant, the green foot print grows a lot.....as in the vehicle is still responsible for the pollution made to recharge it....but, overall, the E rigs are less polluting, especially if charged by a cleaner source.

Don't forget to add in the manufacturing on the motors and batteries. A lot of the neodymium comes from China. They aren't what I would call clean.

Lead used to be an enormous, albeit invisible, problem. Going to unleaded was a very good move, and, yes, the lubricity loss was a PITA.

So, the older cars were heavier, yet didn't absorb impacts in crashes, and were not as safe overall....and got terrible fuel economy, because at a few cents/gal, no one cared.

The newer ones are lighter, and absorb energy in impacts, but are more likely to be totaled in the process, etc.

A heavier car hitting a lighter one though is going to favor being IN the heavier one generally, as the wee one gets punted.

:D

So, overall, as far as economy, performance and safety, the new cars are generally better........but I tend to like the old ones.
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See replies in red.
 





Dr_Evil said:
See replies in red.
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TO quickly explain the differences between hp for example (Specs vs specs), the measurement procedure was changed...so, yes, a HP is an HP, but if one is tested at the wheel, and one is tested at the brake, and, some with, and some without, attached accessories....the same car will produce different HP results.


So, while a HP is a HP, if one test also requires the alternator and water pump, etc, to be part of the load, and another doesn't...the result will be different.

IE: There are losses associated with all the things going on outside the engine...but the engine has no HP if it can't do work..so, something has to be driven by it.

Some test methods specified some of these loads, and some other loads, or minimal loads, etc.

That means that when HP was used for advertising, they wanted the highest numbers possible.

When tests were made more realistic, to account for real world losses to turn drive shafts and axles, and belts, etc, the NUMBERS reported dropped proportionally.

So, yes, a HP is an HP, but, the way you measure it can result in the same car having a large difference in reported HP...depending upon which test was used to do the measurement.


Your other items are analogous to this one in explanation.

Different ways of measuring mpg, performance, etc, changed the stats published...so a car with better mpg, could be reported as having worse mpg, because the test method change resulted in a lower reported mpg by enough to wipe out the actual increase.

I hope that explains why for example, a 1960 HP and a 2015 HP spec would be so different...even though no one changed what a HP was, or what a mile per gallon was....just how it was measured in a car.
 
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Basicly I know emmisions used to be checked at idle but was changed to what the car really put out at say 30 mph. as far as real mpg ratings I havnt followed up on how the recent test are done. The beggining changes on HP measurement was in 1972 in the US when it went from "Gross" at the flywheel of the motor with no exhaust and no belts to "Net" taken at the rear wheels. Today I assume its at the wheels just as its sitting at the dealers. Back in the 70.s during the muscle car " wars" there was alot of under rated engines due to the high insurance rates at teens were a big part of muscle car buyers. Joker301 if your seeing this 450whp that your hoping for will be sweet in that little car!:)
 
I'll play. Here is my 93 fd Rx7
Its raining today...
20151007_164933_zps69x3n7lu.jpg

so here is a better picture
RX-7PAINT016.jpg
 
The HP rating you see listed for factory cars are still at the crankshaft. Other than getting an estimate, there's no way to find out what the wheel HP ratings unless you dyno it. The F150 I had was listed as having 210 HP. What I got at the wheels with a chip, CAI and cat back exhaust was somewhere around 160 if I remember right. You won't see much of a difference in rating with and without accessories. Part of that depends on the electrical load too. I'm using a model T and my current vehicle engine for HP comparison. The Model T had a 2.9L with 20 HP. My 2009 Mazda 6 2.5L has 170 HP.
 
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Awesome thread idea! Love the Rex and the Rx7 :D

This will (hopefully) be my ride in a few months time (at least with similar exterior) :wave:

 
Warne that is a sweet RX7!! :wave: Will nice Calipers on your ride man, which make and model of car is that? I'm finding it hard to tell by looking at the pic for some reason I can't place it. :can:
 
Dr_Evil said:
The HP rating you see listed for factory cars are still at the crankshaft. Other than getting an estimate, there's no way to find out what the wheel HP ratings unless you dyno it. The F150 I had was listed as having 210 HP. What I got at the wheels with a chip, CAI and cat back exhaust was somewhere around 160 if I remember right. You won't see much of a difference in rating with and without accessories. Part of that depends on the electrical load too. I'm using a model T and my current vehicle engine for HP comparison. The Model T had a 2.9L with 20 HP. My 2009 Mazda 6 2.5L has 170 HP.
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DrEvil, thats not bad 160 hp. at the wheels. What would you guess 30 to 40 hp. gain with those little mods. You lose about 80 or 90 hp. from crankshaft to the wheels so I could see your F 150 pushing 240 at the crank. They change the testing so much Im so sure I read an article on the Mustang 4.6 GT when it first came out that it put out 312 at the wheels but racers were putting them on the "wheel" dyno and it was putting out more like 295 hp. doesnt sound like much but to racers every hp counts. I think I remember reading that Ford changed the exhaust system mid year because of assembly issues and that had a big effect. Just doing a little research now and the Z06 corvette is putting 585 at the wheels so the advertised hp. of 650 is low balling it more like 670 hp. Your right they are taking at the wheels again:beer:
 
GSS said:
DrEvil, thats not bad 160 hp. at the wheels. What would you guess 30 to 40 hp. gain with those little mods. You lose about 80 or 90 hp. from crankshaft to the wheels so I could see your F 150 pushing 240 at the crank. They change the testing so much Im so sure I read an article on the Mustang 4.6 GT when it first came out that it put out 312 at the wheels but racers were putting them on the "wheel" dyno and it was putting out more like 295 hp. doesnt sound like much but to racers every hp counts. I think I remember reading that Ford changed the exhaust system mid year because of assembly issues and that had a big effect. Just doing a little research now and the Z06 corvette is putting 585 at the wheels so the advertised hp. of 650 is low balling it more like 670 hp. Your right they are taking at the wheels again:beer:
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Every hp counts. That is super correct.

My mechanic builds STIs and EVOs. Had a guy who just made 692whp with his STI on a mustang dyno. And he is still looking for more.

For some people it is important.

I am not looking for such build.

I am going for something that will still be reliable on my Rex.

:)
 
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That would be stupidly fast Joker haha!!! Mine weighs 2,912 lbs and has 220 HP, (at the wheels I think). Thought your Scooby would weigh over 3K lbs?!

Haha Will I've not seen one very often, didn't recognise it. The Legacy of old was amazing, a friend owned a 90s model and it went like a rocket.
 
It is less than 3000lbs. This car is actually very light. Doors does not have full frames. And the bonnet is from aluminium. As well as my wheels. ( OZ Superleggera )

At the moment I am sitting at around 300whp+.

We got two guys here that has a their Scoobies at 400-500whp and they are streetable.

It really depends on how you tune it.

I am going to install a meth system , so I do not have to run race fuel. It will only work on WOT. So when I am not pushing it ... it will work on normal pump gas.

The turbo I am going with is probably the GTX3076R. Which is not too big like the GT35R. And will still be nice for street car.

I am also not going to put extra tough suspension on mine. It is already hard , and until I am going to get another car for my daily driving ... I am not going to change the suspension as it will be very unpleasant to drive.

Currently I got almost everything I need for the Engine rebuild. Forged pistons and rods , New crankshaft , Ferrea Valves , Brian Crower Cams ... and more.

Waiting for some last parts. And then will take it apart.

I have been waiting for this since I bought this car. It is not something you can pull quickly as it involves a lot of money and time. And the point of tunning your car and working on it ... is to not finish it quickly , but one step at a the time :) that way you enjoy it much more.

I have started with very small stuff , and with the time I bought new parts.

I also like to buy used parts. I search for used parts on eBay that I can restore or reuse and buy them. Like braces and struts. You can just buy one and restore it. No need to spend $200 on a new piece.

I also got a used turbo when I upgraded mine at first. And restored it with new seals etc ...

Now I will probably buy a new one though as these Garret turbos are hard to find in a good condition.

The car scene is very wide. And I love it all. But Japanese cars just have something special in my point of view.

:beer:
 
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Wow Joker you are quite the gear head, im impressed with your list. Years ago it was really hard to have 500 wheel hp and to be streetable and this was with big cube V8s let alone a small liter 4 cyl. Turbos have been around for ages but it took the proper fuel delivery, intercoolers and computer managment to really make them special. "like im telling you somthing you already dont know". Also nice job lightening up your car (every pound counts haha). Do you even feel turbo lag anymore these days? Some day when I can post pics il post a pic of my 1070 Buick GS its needs a replacement trunk and a left front fender but it pretty solid an straight. Does have a 455 ci and is rated at 510 ft lbs of torque and underated at 360 hp. at the flywheel. Joker nice job:beer::) It must be nice to change your cars timing on the fly nowedays
 
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GSS said:
Wow Joker you are quite the gear head, im impressed with your list. Years ago it was really hard to have 500 wheel hp and to be streetable and this was with big cube V8s let alone a small liter 4 cyl. Turbos have been around for ages but it took the proper fuel delivery, intercoolers and computer managment to really make them special. "like im telling you somthing you already dont know". Also nice job lightening up your car (every pound counts haha). Do you even feel turbo lag anymore these days? Some day when I can post pics il post a pic of my 1070 Buick GS its needs a replacement trunk and a left front fender but it pretty solid an straight. Does have a 455 ci and is rated at 510 ft lbs of torque and underated at 370 hp. at the flywheel. Joker nice job:beer::) It must be nice to change your cars timing on the fly nowedays
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Yep gear head it is :)

It is easier today as turbos has a better technology and engine managment has improved over the years. And skill.

People now have more experience than before. When those were prrety new at the late 90s or early 2000 .. making 300 at the wheel was a lot. And today it is more of a stage 2 kind of thing .. that everyone has on their cars.

Lag is always there. But if you chage gears right you do not have lag. If you will put into 5th gear at 20mph than yeah .. you will not accelerate. But downshift back to 1st or 2nd gear and power is on.

Today big blocks with nitrous or twin turbos makes 2000whp and more. Which 10 years ago seemed to be impossible.

:)
 
Got a sleeper. 300 Chrysler SRT8. Most kids that pull up next to it think grandpa has a regular 300. Big Hemi. Very un politically correct. :)
 
Can Korean cars count? They're still Asian XD

Not that I own an Asian made car. All I've got is a stupid piece of junk Pontiac. :/

My car makes 180 HP yet my mother's 150 HP Kia is easily 3 times faster. *sigh* and costs less too.

Stupid big dumb American cars. Patriotic Americans are the only thing keeping them afloat.
 
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