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FrozenGate by Avery

Good Morning America - Pointers

L

LSRFAQ

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May 8, 2009
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Someone is going to want to DVR/TAPE Good Morning America on ABC this morning, special on easy to obtain high power laser pointers and aircraft.
I cant do it, no DVR.

Yep, National Media attention.

Steve
 





This one has so much more win...



This guy is a damn genius at cutups...

thepartyparty.com
 
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LSRFAQ said:
Too bad, that was a preview and warning of what is coming out of DC in the next few months.



Sigh...

Steve
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So what do you want me to do about it Steve? It's not me that's pointing at planes, it's not me that promotes that kind of behavior. Excuse me for having a sense of humor. Ever heard the term "laughing to keep from crying"?

If we experience adversity because of these actions, it is inevitable. No one here can do anything about it at this stage of the game.
 
ElektroFreak said:
So what do you want me to do about it Steve? It's not me that's pointing at planes, it's not me that promotes that kind of behavior. Excuse me for having a sense of humor. Ever heard the term "laughing to keep from crying"?

If we experience adversity because of these actions, it is inevitable. No one here can do anything about it at this stage of the game.[/QUOTE



Congrats. You act to be a leader around here speaking using the word "WE" all the time.

Well , leader (?) When the government is about to open or needs to be forced to open, a comment period about how industry and individuals would like to go about a new set of rules, you have shrugged your head and said There is nothing "We" can do about it, it is too late.

Enjoy being a "Sheeple". However I'm sure you will be the first in line to start useless bitching when the new rules are announced.

Or you could get off your A$$ and start organizing a letter writing campaign.
You will have to adopt a position where some LPF users may have be disqualified from owning a pointer above a certain power or below a certain age, and of course you all seem to be more worried about rep right now then leading. You need to organize some proposed new form of licensing or rules, quickly.

Who will lead? Who will come forward and organize?

Americans live in a representative republic. If you want your leaders to listen to you, you need to do two things.

One, present a reasonable solution to the problem, as a group, that makes sense, distancing yourself from those who cause the problem. You must be be perfectly civil and unified while doing it.

Two, Coherently express that position, and have some one who represents you, who can speak for you. Then get that message to all five hundred members of the gouse and one hundred members of the senate.

I will tell you this much, sending a message of "Hands off my pointers, no new rules at all, no compromises, no age limits" will get some one's much more restrictive plan implemented so fast, your head will spin.

Decide, Come to a reasonable compromise and be proactive, or be left whining in the dust.

You will not find the Chinese pointer manufacturing industry speaking for you, they will just move on to selling to the developing countries. Because they are not US Nationals, they have little or no seat at the table.

Do not do a "Wicked" and scream "Liberty and Petition" while still breaking the rules. Doing one thing, while saying another, is not a way to win in this situation. Its about showing you have maturity and principles and are willing to abide by rules.

Right now, unless you organize, your new rules will be wrote by perhaps 10 people from other laser and technical industries on who will decide what is good for their business and paying users, and pointer users will be left in the dust. They will write a structure that makes the aviation industry happy. Odds are you will never even find out who writes the new rules. I have no clue which group will do or is doing this. Some of them will be asked to participate. Others will come forward, make phone calls, and find out how to participate. That is how it works.
Some small measure of checks and balances will be implemented, America is still a republic. A comment period will be opened, but by that time, the rough rules will have been drafted and sent to lawyers for polishing.


I will be too busy backing the speaker of another group, and that group will have a easier task, because that group has a licensing structure already in place. So do not look to me.

Those of you not in the US? Due to international treaties, what happens in one nation tends to spread to others. US flag air carriers cannot fly to nations who have regulations that are not in line with ICAO rules, so if a new aviation safety rule happens in the US, it will most likely spread.
Every year some one decides to harmonize those aviation rules, world wide. It happens.

I know of this well, a sad event, caused by a few hardheads who ignored a warning letter,in the 1990s resulted in draconian new rules for outdoor laser shows in the US, and those rules spread to Canada and the UK within a year or so.

Loopholes will be closed, harvesting will eventually be affected. New diodes coming down the path are surface mount to begin with, to make better technology for end users/manufacturers, and it will be a simple matter to build a structure around the SMD device to kill it if harvested.
Google COB, Chip On Board, if you want to see the future. I know of no one, outside of a few firms which do contract reverse engineering, that can harvest a COB.

This is a friendly heads up. This will happen soon. It seems to be happening now. It would be easy for me to set back and not type this post. Heck it would benefit some of my friends if I did not. But we are all Americans, and letting just a few greedy people make big decisions has really, really, backfired on us in our recent past.

OK, who will lead? Who says "We" for this group?


Steve
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LSRFAQ said:
letting just a few greedy people make big decisions has really, really, backfired on us in our recent past.

Steve
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You're not kidding.. hell, that's the name of the game on the "professional" laserist side of things. Look at PL, where certain greedy so-called "professional" members there will stop at nothing to silence those who speak out with differing ideas and opinions. Your response is rather odd for someone who represents a group that feels that most all of us here in the hobbyist community should go the way of the dodo in the first place (forgetting, of course, that they were once beginners). One must wonder why even open your mouth, as the prospect of the hobbyist/portable community disappearing is no doubt like a wet dream to you guys. The best part of all that to me is that I think you guys and/or the government will have a real hard time squashing us no matter what the outcome of the legislation is. You might be able to silence me, but you'll never silence all of us or kill the hobby that we enjoy.

But to address the rest of your post. Personally I think that a new system wouldn't be a bad thing actually, one where people must prove in some way that they are of sound enough mind to own and use high-powered portable lasers. There are certainly very scary scenarios that are possible when the general public has unlimited access to high-powered lasers. No one can deny that, and I don't think many people have tried.

To put things in perspective for you however, and this is only my own opinion, I think that even if new regulations are developed it will have little to no impact on the hobbyist community. Hell, the current regulations are entirely ineffective. I don't think that the gov't has the resources to put a serious dent in the influx of portables from overseas. As I said before, personally I think some form of licensing system wouldn't be a bad idea for owning class 4 lasers, but I don't have time personally to take on the responsibilities involved in spearheading a mass movement to try to sway or influence the government. I have a career, family, side work and zero time left over.. surely you know what that's like. Perhaps there are others more suited to the task..
 
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You know what else I'd like to add to this?

When I say WE I mean ALL OF US.. Professionals, hobbyists both. ALL OF US.

The fact that you came here and posted your post above speaks volumes in support of my position that the group of so-called "professionals" that you represent have ZERO interest in coexisting with the hobbyist community. In my mind I see absolutely no reason why the two can't coexist as a whole, and that has been one of my biggest points since I first became active here on the forums. To me, we are all in this together, we benefit from each others' research and experiences and we also are both affected by negative occurrences anywhere in the community. Let's also not forget that "professional" laserists have been responsible for PLENTY of negative occurrences in our community through poor safety practices and bad business. When professionals are responsible for unsafe methods causing injury it is 10000 times worse than a hobbyist pointing at a plane. In other words it only takes one fuckup on your (the professional community's) part to equal thousands of mistakes by stupid pointer freaks.

Rather than spend your time putting up barriers and walls to keep the two worlds separate and try to prevent our part of the community from existing, you could welcome our side of the community and do your best to educate us CIVILLY and WITHOUT THE INSULTS, BACKSTABBING AND BELITTLING that your little group seems to find so attractive.

Let's not forget that it is always members of the "professional" community that are dogging on OUR community, not the other way around.. with the exception of me. I'll take your BS and hand it right back to you as you well know. I've known for a loooong time that your "professionals" have been just dying for any opportunity to eliminate the hobbyist community, and those very "professionals" have lied to our community time and time again when asked directly if this is their aim. You have confirmed that this is what they want in your post when you stated:

"It would be easy for me to set back and not type this post. Heck it would benefit some of my friends if I did not."
Click to expand...

So I've been right all along.. I knew it and I've been posting and will continue to post each and every occurrence that backs my position up. Your group of "friends" has always been more than willing to show their true colors constantly, so it's not hard for me to tell if they're being dishonest when I ask if they are interested in supporting the community as a whole or not.
 
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Electrofreak,

Your still not getting the big picture. Your so focused on "conspiracy" and "revenge" that your missing how change really works.

Hint, keywords are "sovereignty", "personal responsibility", "integrity", and "representative republic".

You have a chance to influence potential change in the system, but you choose to rant, instead.

Hint II, When new rules come up that are not political, industry and user groups form committees, invite the government, have a seat, and the group makes suggestions. That is the way it works. If you do not get involved and get a stakeholder seat, five or ten others will, and they will suggest a new set of rules.

If stakeholders do not show up, the government invites others to participate on their behalf. Usually academics, lobbyists, and consultants.

This is the way it works from local government all the way up to the feds. Its called participatory democracy. Because the committee is usually voluntary, its actions are often not recorded. Thus things get done a certain way for less then obvious reasons, in the end. Some times these things get actual recognized status, like the ANSI and IEEE and SAE standards groups.

If that does not suit you just learn the words to your joke of "End of the World As We Know it"; ignore this, and accept that which befalls you. Problem is, those who just set back usually get screwed, as well as let others get screwed.

Right now, I'm very sure the pointer community is not a stakeholder. You have no one speaking for you.

Ranting and raving on line is just hot air, its not participatory. You are not going to town hall to make yourselves heard. Therefore, accept what befalls you.


Lead or get out of the way!

Steve
 
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^you do understand (or you should understand after my having said it to you and others at least 900 times) that my own personal primary interest in lasers does not include portables? Also, you should understand that laserpointerforums is no longer strictly about portables. As you can see from the main page LPF is about lasers of all types, including projectors.

Myself, I'd like to think I represent the laser hobbyist, whatever form that might take. If there is no one representing the hobbyist community as a whole then I will spend some of the time I don't have researching just how we can form a committee for said representation, and the right course of action to follow to make our message heard.

I'm not disagreeing with what you've just said here, and I'm not missing a single tiny portion of what you're saying. My point, however, is that "pointer community" = "professional community" = "laser community". This legislation of which you speak will affect all of us, even the pros on some level or another.. also, the pros have reaped benefits from hobbyist research and experience in the past.. and how do they thank the hobbyist community? By stomping on it at every turn, and leaving it high and dry to defend and represent itself.

And so you're right, I do focus on a conspiracy from time to time. It's a conspiracy that is VERY real, and the existence of which has been confirmed numerous times. As long as there is a conspiracy on the part of the professional community against the hobbyist, there will I also be.. propagandizing at length.. ad nauseam even. I want the whole world to see.. and if it means that some people end up bent out of shape at me, trying to "take me down" so be it. I'm resilient, and not worried about you or your efforts to silence me.
 
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No, you do not get to form the committee, it already exists under the framework of a large national organization. Actually I think there are two in this case that matter, one is open, one not so open.

You need to form a users group so someone duly appointed by the users group can get to speak to the committee. Which based upon how good and rational your presentation is, may or may not offer you a seat, or may offer you a non voting "interested party or observer" slot at its meetings, interested parties get to make a presentation once in a while and are on the email list.

This means you need to be incorporated as at least a non-profit and have a board and some sizable membership. Your board must make the decisions and guidance. These meetings are not going to be a personal rant space. Your representative will be presenting to engineers and specialists, and they want numbers and plans, not impassioned pleas. The one group I am thinking of only allows people with engineering degrees to vote, the other is more open.

Oh, and there is implied trust involved, which means you probably need at least two delegates from your organization on site.

That is about as open as it gets. BTW, nothing is done in a hurry. Everything is on a one year or six month time frame unless there is a valid emergency.



Steve
 
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Hmm.. I can think of a few people who would make excellent delegates. I'll start a thread about this specific thing first in the veteran's section here either tonight or tomorrow, and later in the main forum. If we can start to get feedback and a plan together then maybe what you're describing could happen. It's most certainly worth a shot though.. not much to lose.
 
Now if you do that, you just set yourself up for the same nasty thing you zing some PLers on.

Quote:

"meeting first in the veteran's Section here"

End quote.

Sekret Squirrel Much? Getting cool hooded robes too?

Back in the EFSSR?

Can't trust the people you wish to represent?

If you do this, it has to be open. Names have to be named. Otherwise you have no street cred.

If the US were to adopt what the Germans just did a year or so ago regarding technical hobbies, we are screwed. I don't think that would happen, but there were hundreds of search warrants and charges leveled in Germany over chemical hobbyists and sales of chemicals.
The Germans had to team up and form a organization to fight for their rights. They cannot even own methanol, at least not easily.


Steve
 
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