Do you carry your laser as self defense at night?

ElektroFreak · Jul 29, 2010

Mohrenberg said:
Unfortunately, conceal and carry permits are now available in missouri. So every idiot that can come up with $200 is walking around with a hand gun.

It makes me nervous to see someone even wearing a firearm, forcing me to carry one myself.

This is bad because simple confrontations that would of ended in bruises can now end in death. I don't support the conceal and carry laws, but feel unsafe without one now because of it..

Just two weeks ago in St. Louis a couple was sitting in the drive-thru line at a taco bell. Two men got in their back seat, pulled guns and tried to rob the couple... BUT they didn't count on the fact that the driver had a concealed handgun. The driver shot one in the face and the other in the chest. I'd rather myself and my family be alive because of my concealed weapon than dead because I was unprepared. Also it makes it so that the criminals just can't be sure that they will walk away from their crimes..

JonWienke · Jul 30, 2010

flecom said:
actually you would be surprised how little training they have on this... police offers generally arrest you for things they *think* are illegal, the rest is for the courts to decide... most police officers actually know very little about the law

Yes and no. Most jurisdictions require a police officer to have a criminal justice degree,which includes some legal stuff as part of the required coursework. While this is far less than what's needed for a law degree, it's more training than most people have. Most departments have mandatory weapon training and qualification too, but when I lived in California, I practiced at the same range the police used to qualify, and I could outshoot about 95% of the officers...

flecom · Jul 30, 2010

JonWienke said:
Yes and no. Most jurisdictions require a police officer to have a criminal justice degree,which includes some legal stuff as part of the required coursework. While this is far less than what's needed for a law degree, it's more training than most people have. Most departments have mandatory weapon training and qualification too, but when I lived in California, I practiced at the same range the police used to qualify, and I could outshoot about 95% of the officers...

well yes but criminal justice like you said is not a law degree...

for example, officer sees you with your shiny new class IV pointer being a jackass, now, he does not know if its illegal or not, but man, that thing seems dangerous! it can cut electrical tape! so he confiscates it...

thats how the mind of an officer works, trust me I used to work with them quite a bit

now you have to go through the court system to get said pointer back (and chances are it will have been "destroyed" by the time they let you have it back aka someone said "neat I am taking that home!")

police officers know legal basics, like relevant traffic laws and such, but when they see you doing something questionable, its based on "well, does it look like it should be illegal?" and if they think so, off you go

and ya I almost got killed at a gun range by a cop being an idiot so I definitely believe you are a better shot lol

JonWienke · Jul 31, 2010

flecom said:
police officers know legal basics, like relevant traffic laws and such, but when they see you doing something questionable, its based on "well, does it look like it should be illegal?" and if they think so, off you go

and ya I almost got killed at a gun range by a cop being an idiot so I definitely believe you are a better shot lol

I'm ex-military, have friends who are police, and currently work for a 3-letter federal agency, so I have a lot of respect for law enforcement people. It's a crappy, thankless job for the most part, and doesn't pay as well as most people think it does, especially given the working conditions. They play an important role in society, and generally don't get the appreciation they deserve--the only time you hear about them on the news is when they make a mistake or do something stupid. They have to make judgment calls every day, and get anal-probed for being too lax and being too strict. In many cases, they will be criticised no matter what they do. They have a tough, thankless job, and most of them do it well. But the are human just like the rest of us, and a badge does not grant the wearer any super powers. They are trained in the use of firearms, but most people are capable of achieving an equal or greater level of weapon proficiency if they are willing to invest the required time, effort, and money to do so.

Learning how to shoot well enough to defend yourself from a would-be mugger or rapist isn't very difficult; most such encounters occur at short enough ranges that aiming with sights is an unnecessary waste of time--less than 7 yards. And learning the appropriate use of deadly force isn't very difficult either. The exact legalities vary by jurisdiction, but the following principles are pretty universal:

1. A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT IS NOT AN ASSHOLE HUNTING LICENSE. Merely being a jerk is not justification for shooting someone. Don't pull a gun on someone unless a "reasonable person" would construe their behavior as imminently threatening death or serious injury to someone. If you brandish a gun at someone just because they cut you off on the freeway, then congratulations, you have just put yourself in that category, and the other person may be legally justified to shoot you. Even if you don't get shot, you'll probably go to jail for brandishing a weapon, even in jurisdictions that issue concealed carry permits to anyone with a clean record and no history of mental illness.

2. PRACTICE REGULARLY, AND BE FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH YOUR WEAPON TO OPERATE AND FIELD-STRIP IT BLINDFOLDED. Violent crimes are more frequent in the dark, and if you can't reload, clear jams, and work the safety without looking at the weapon, you're missing much of the point of having one. Sleazy criminal defense lawyers may try to accuse you accidentally/negligently shooting their client; having evidence to show you know how to operate your weapon properly and effectively can save your butt in court if the guy who showed up uninvited in your living room at 3AM sues you after you shoot him.

3. SHOOT TO KILL. If the situation truly justifies the use of deadly force, then use deadly force; don't screw around trying to wing the guy. If the perp survives, he's much more likely to sue you, but more importantly, if it is obvious you were shooting to wound instead of kill, you are undermining the credibility of your claim deadly force was justified. A slick lawyer could argue you were in control of the situation and shot to torture, not defend yourself. You are also exposing yourself to greater risk from the perp--he may not even notice being winged in the arm due to adrenaline and/or recreational pharmaceuticals (particularly PCP and meth) while disarming you and killing you with your own weapon. Shoot at center-chest, or the head if you have time to aim and the target isn't moving fast.

4. STOP SHOOTING ONCE THE THREAT HAS BEEN NEUTRALIZED. Once the perp is on the ground and no longer a threat to you or others (as defined a "reasonable person's" perception of his behavior), cease fire. If the dude is just lying there bleeding and otherwise minding his own business, don't blow his brains out to finish him off. Call 911. Unless he reaches into his pocket, and you suspect there may be a weapon in said pocket...but then "no longer a threat" no longer applies, and you are once again justified in using deadly force.

Police are an important part of society, but they can't be everywhere, they can't guarantee your safety, and they can't even guarantee that they will respond to a 911 call fast enough to save your bacon if something bad is happening to you. You are your own best first line of defense against criminals, because only you can be wherever you are, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

HIMNL9 · Jul 31, 2010

If only all the countries had reasonable laws, about this .....

Here, you cannot carry weapons (but, criminals, ofcourse, do it) ..... getting a gun carrying permission requires that you prove that you need it for work or for "valid reasons" (that are, usually, arbitrarily decided from the responsible offices ..... like, being a friend of a policeman can be a valid reason, and having received dead threats and being shooted can be NOT valid reasons, at the same time

) ..... and a lot of certificates, declarations, annual renewals, and taxes, taxes, taxes ..... (did i mentioned taxes ? .....

)

And after all this, suppose you find yourself in a danger situation, with a person that is shooting you with the clear and explicit intention to kill you ..... if, in this situation, you kill him in reply, you will always become charged for "excessive self defense" ..... bah

Arayan · Jul 31, 2010

HIMNL9 said:
If only all the countries had reasonable laws, about this .....

Here, you cannot carry weapons (but, criminals, ofcourse, do it) ..... getting a gun carrying permission requires that you prove that you need it for work or for "valid reasons" (that are, usually, arbitrarily decided from the responsible offices ..... like, being a friend of a policeman can be a valid reason, and having received dead threats and being shooted can be NOT valid reasons, at the same time ) ..... and a lot of certificates, declarations, annual renewals, and taxes, taxes, taxes ..... (did i mentioned taxes ? ..... )

And after all this, suppose you find yourself in a danger situation, with a person that is shooting you with the clear and explicit intention to kill you ..... if, in this situation, you kill him in reply, you will always become charged for "excessive self defense" ..... bah

I absolutely agree...neurons are rare here :can:

ElektroFreak · Jul 31, 2010

JonWienke said:
I'm ex-military, have friends who are police, and currently work for a 3-letter federal agency, so I have a lot of respect for law enforcement people. It's a crappy, thankless job for the most part, and doesn't pay as well as most people think it does, especially given the working conditions. They play an important role in society, and generally don't get the appreciation they deserve--the only time you hear about them on the news is when they make a mistake or do something stupid. They have to make judgment calls every day, and get anal-probed for being too lax and being too strict. In many cases, they will be criticised no matter what they do. They have a tough, thankless job, and most of them do it well. But the are human just like the rest of us, and a badge does not grant the wearer any super powers. They are trained in the use of firearms, but most people are capable of achieving an equal or greater level of weapon proficiency if they are willing to invest the required time, effort, and money to do so.

Learning how to shoot well enough to defend yourself from a would-be mugger or rapist isn't very difficult; most such encounters occur at short enough ranges that aiming with sights is an unnecessary waste of time--less than 7 yards. And learning the appropriate use of deadly force isn't very difficult either. The exact legalities vary by jurisdiction, but the following principles are pretty universal:

1. A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT IS NOT AN ASSHOLE HUNTING LICENSE. Merely being a jerk is not justification for shooting someone. Don't pull a gun on someone unless a "reasonable person" would construe their behavior as imminently threatening death or serious injury to someone. If you brandish a gun at someone just because they cut you off on the freeway, then congratulations, you have just put yourself in that category, and the other person may be legally justified to shoot you. Even if you don't get shot, you'll probably go to jail for brandishing a weapon, even in jurisdictions that issue concealed carry permits to anyone with a clean record and no history of mental illness.

2. PRACTICE REGULARLY, AND BE FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH YOUR WEAPON TO OPERATE AND FIELD-STRIP IT BLINDFOLDED. Violent crimes are more frequent in the dark, and if you can't reload, clear jams, and work the safety without looking at the weapon, you're missing much of the point of having one. Sleazy criminal defense lawyers may try to accuse you accidentally/negligently shooting their client; having evidence to show you know how to operate your weapon properly and effectively can save your butt in court if the guy who showed up uninvited in your living room at 3AM sues you after you shoot him.

3. SHOOT TO KILL. If the situation truly justifies the use of deadly force, then use deadly force; don't screw around trying to wing the guy. If the perp survives, he's much more likely to sue you, but more importantly, if it is obvious you were shooting to wound instead of kill, you are undermining the credibility of your claim deadly force was justified. A slick lawyer could argue you were in control of the situation and shot to torture, not defend yourself. You are also exposing yourself to greater risk from the perp--he may not even notice being winged in the arm due to adrenaline and/or recreational pharmaceuticals (particularly PCP and meth) while disarming you and killing you with your own weapon. Shoot at center-chest, or the head if you have time to aim and the target isn't moving fast.

4. STOP SHOOTING ONCE THE THREAT HAS BEEN NEUTRALIZED. Once the perp is on the ground and no longer a threat to you or others (as defined a "reasonable person's" perception of his behavior), cease fire. If the dude is just lying there bleeding and otherwise minding his own business, don't blow his brains out to finish him off. Call 911. Unless he reaches into his pocket, and you suspect there may be a weapon in said pocket...but then "no longer a threat" no longer applies, and you are once again justified in using deadly force.

Police are an important part of society, but they can't be everywhere, they can't guarantee your safety, and they can't even guarantee that they will respond to a 911 call fast enough to save your bacon if something bad is happening to you. You are your own best first line of defense against criminals, because only you can be wherever you are, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

That's a great post!

JonWienke · Jul 31, 2010

ElektroFreak said:
That's a great post!

Thanks!

ossumguywill · Aug 1, 2010

ElektroFreak said:
That's a great post!

Agreed! Also, @ HIMNL9, lol at "excessive self defense" :crackup: I think you can get charged with that here, but you probably have to chop their limbs off or something

HIMNL9 · Aug 1, 2010

ossumguywill said:
Agreed! Also, @ HIMNL9, lol at "excessive self defense" :crackup: I think you can get charged with that here, but you probably have to chop their limbs off or something

No, here don't work this way ...... here the reaction must be "adequate to the circumstances, and always the minimum possible" .....

Here, if you kill someone that is killing you for defense, you become first automatically accused for excess of self-defense ..... then, the judge dacides if your reaction had absolutely no other way to be done, and if they decide (half arbitrarily) that you had the possibility to react in a different way (as example, trying to escape, instead shoot in reply), you became charged for homicide ..... and this can happen also if you, defending yourself, don't hit the killer in front, but on side.

Always as example, few years ago a jeweler had an armed robbery, where the bandits beatened him and the son, then they escaped, the jeweler followed them outside the shop with a gun (regularly owned and with permissions) and shouted them to stop ..... one of the bandits reverted and shooted to him, so he replied to the fire and killed him.

I suppose in the USA and others "more normal" countries this can be defined self-defense, right ?

But happened that the bullet that killed the bandit, hit him on a side, instead in front, cause he, when was shooting to the jeweler, was still running away ..... so the judge, basing on this detail, charged the jeweler for intentional homicide (i think in the USA is called first degree or volunteer homicide, not sure), cause, he said, if the bandit was escaping, there was no more needs to shoot him (regardless the fact that the bandit was still shooting to the jeweler).

And this here is valid in any circumstances ..... if a person, here, enter in your home, shoot to you not to death and kill all your family, and then in reaction you kill him when he is escaping, hitting him in the shoulders, YOU are the assassin that become charged for volunteer homicide.

Does this give you an idea, about our idiotic laws ?

flecom · Aug 2, 2010

JonWienke said:
I'm ex-military, have friends who are police, and currently work for a 3-letter federal agency, so I have a lot of respect for law enforcement people.

please note that none of my posts were meant as "police are stupid/worthless" or anything like that... I too have many, many ex-military friends, friends in three letter agencies, various local police forces (and fire departments) etc... and have the utmost respect for them... but no group is without their village idiot...

my (personal) incident of police stupidity with a gun was at a gun range, next to the "civilian" gun range was a police only gun range... when our range was "safe" I went to go work on my target when some guy in the police range decided to go full auto and spray everywhere, including over the divider between the two ranges, and I was on the far end most away from the police range... I literally heard a bullet whiz over my head and I dropped to the ground immediately (so did the guy moving the target a few feet from me) that was scary!

also I 100% agree with your post

JonWienke · Aug 2, 2010

flecom said:
please note that none of my posts were meant as "police are stupid/worthless" or anything like that... I too have many, many ex-military friends, friends in three letter agencies, various local police forces (and fire departments) etc... and have the utmost respect for them... but no group is without their village idiot...

also I 100% agree with your post

I didn't read any of your posts as anti police, so no worries.

Mickey · Aug 2, 2010

JonWienke said:
I'm ex-military, have friends who are police, and currently work for a 3-letter federal agency, .....

Thank you, well said. I too have very close friends in the military and in state and local police. They are the ones who I can plainly and without sarcasm quote in confidence the following:

"I know "in my head" that you can use it as a defense item, but let's be realistic, you won't have the time to use it if a situation arose. In the US, you are allowed under amendment law to protect yourselves to a certain degree, but there are no laws that state "permanently blinding", "retinal disfigurement", or "setting tissue aflame" are either too much or too little. In the US, it's all about how much money you have to pay for lawyers."

I refuse to go on... except to say, get educated, ask local officials, and never use your laser as a weapon for ANY reason! Please?!

JonWienke · Aug 2, 2010

A 1W laser is about the equivalent of a BB gun; you can shoot someone's eye out with it, but hitting anywhere else is just gonna piss them off. There are any number of Saturday night specials that are both cheaper and much more effective as a weapon.

flecom · Aug 2, 2010

heres the #1 reason why this thread is just a poor idea, along with carrying a laser as a self defense weapon... if you use it as a weapon (and other people start doing the same) lasers will get classified as weapons and then you can pretty much kiss this hobby goodbye

amsnyder · Aug 3, 2010

Im quite happy with my .357 as a self defense weapon. The flash it gives off at night is quite dazzling and it makes a nice noise too

Do you carry your laser as self defense at night?

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