LaserBTB / S-KY US customs warning

[pseudonomen137]

Just letting y'all know customs is onto them. Both my package and Laser Ben's package from them were pulled. In my case I was able to get it cleared through the customs broker at TNT and FDA2877, but this resulted in ~$165 in combined customs/brokerage fees on a $600 package.

In my case Lbtb paid half of those fees, and I believe Dr. Lava has made similar/better arrangements for his GB. Just be warned though, if you're in the US purchasing through LaserBTB/S-KY, prepare ahead in case of customs seizure.

 

[Archane]

Let me do some digging on my end to see if I can help. question, why are they being pulled in the first place? on what grounds are they saying they needed to be? to my knowledge as long as the laser is shipped without batteries they don't care. if it has no batteries it can be listed as a non-working unit.

Hit me back when you can.

 

[pseudonomen137]

Let me do some digging on my end to see if I can help. question, why are they being pulled in the first place? on what grounds are they saying they needed to be? to my knowledge as long as the laser is shipped without batteries they don't care. if it has no batteries it can be listed as a non-working unit.

Hit me back when you can.

Haha, if only it were that easy. I don't think you can quite get away with saying its a non working unit. By that logic I think you could pretty much declare anything a non-working unit. Afterall, even modules need to be plugged into the wall to "work" if you want to spin it that way.

Anyway, they are pulled, quite simply, because they are noncompliant. We get away with most of our hobby stuff, and many companies like Nova both do what they can to avoid customs, and offer solutions if they are seized. Still though, those X Series lasers are non compliant and shouldn't legally be entering. Even if the unit has the "5-point safety features" it still needs to be registered with the FDA and have be assigned an accession number to legally enter to US.

Therefore, almost all the lasers we talk about here are illegal to import - we just get away with it most of the time

 

[Archane]

ok I got ya, so it's because the power is greater than the 5mW limit set by the FDA?
hmm I work for a shipping company, let me see what info I can dig up on this, and if there is a way around this from a shipping/legal aspect we could use.

 

[FrothyChimp]

As a laser systems supplier, I do come across this from time to time. The systems are not seized in the traditional sense. They are stopped by the FDA due primarily to the form 2877 not being properly completed. A single typo on the accession number and it's stopped cold as the number will not be in the FDA database. If there is no accession number you should have known that from the beginning and not ordered it. Manufacturers can get temporary accession numbers from the FDA so that can be a solution. Remember you are dealing with a government agency and the process is more complicated than it needs to be. If you are unsure about a company being able to export to the US ask for the 2877 for that product before ordering.

Never claim something about an import if it is not true. Customs does pull random imports to verify the integrity of the documentation. You cross them by lying and they catch you, you will pay the price. If you are an individual you may be subject to various fees and forfeiture of the order. A business may find criminal charges or at least having every single import inspected by customs or the FDA every single time.

 

[pseudonomen137]

Well, FDA 2877 would be an interesting read for you, and of course it all ties into the regulations in 21 CFR 1040.10. If the lasers are subassemblies for things that are themselves to be varianced you can get away with that. But that's rarely the case for us.

I'd be interested in knowing your opinion. There are many ways around it, but its just a hassle and they aren't all by-the-books legal. When it comes down to what really happens on the end of customs/the port/the shipping company's broker though, I have no idea how that whole process works.

 

[FrothyChimp]

I've imported laser systems from hand helds to complete marking systems and have only had one laser held up by FDA. The accession number on a single longitudinal mode laser system was not in the FDA database. I supplied them with a copy of the 2877 verifying the number was, indeed, correct, and a copy of the FDA letter assigning the accession number. They released it that day.

Every single laser I import, with only a few exceptions, falls under 21 CFR 1040.10 as working end-user laser systems. There is nothing illegal about importing laser systems as long as the proper paperwork is completed. You don't need to claim it is broken or anything else unless you are attempting to get around the law. Of course I would have no sympathy if that is the case.

 

[Archane]

another way around that should be to have a commercial invoice included in the box with the correct Schedule B Number for the item being shipped. The Schedule B Number is a number that the US Gov uses to universally catagorize the contents of a box without having to inspect it themselves. And believe me they sub-catagorize the sh!t out of things.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/schedules/b/2007/index.html

is a complete list of the Schedule B Number's for 2007 (yes they change every year) but for the most part only 10-20% of the list numbers actually change each year.


after looking through the different schedule B's available I believe this is the correct one for the types of lasers we are talking about

8456 Machine tools for working any material by removal of material,
by laser or other light or photon beam, ultrasonic, electro-
discharge, electro-chemical, electron-beam, ionic-beam or
plasma arc processes:
8456100002 Operated by laser or other light or photon beam processes No.
8456200000 Operated by ultrasonic processes . . . . . .No.
8456300000 Operated by electro-discharge processes . . .No.
845690 Other:
8456903000 For working metal . . . . . . . . . . . .No.
8456907000 Other . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .No. <----------- this would be the one we want since it's powerfule enough to "remove material" but not designed for a specific use

now if it's lower powered there is a number for Lasers used for presentations
851310 Laser pointer, for presentation

and even one for you CO2 laser people out there
851580 Welding machines, laser powered or ultrasonic powered

I hope this helps, I don't know much about the whole FDA thing but from an international shipping aspect, Via DHL this is all you really need, unless the shipment is over $2500, but thats a different story.

 

[pseudonomen137]

I've imported laser systems from hand helds to complete marking systems and have only had one laser held up by FDA. The accession number on a single longitudinal mode laser system was not in the FDA database. I supplied them with a copy of the 2877 verifying the number was, indeed, correct, and a copy of the FDA letter assigning the accession number. They released it that day.

Every single laser I import, with only a few exceptions, falls under 21 CFR 1040.10 as working end-user laser systems. There is nothing illegal about importing laser systems as long as the proper paperwork is completed. You don't need to claim it is broken or anything else unless you are attempting to get around the law. Of course I would have no sympathy if that is the case.

Well, in your case you're actually legally importing the units for legitimate uses - just gotta fill out the right paperwork. In the case of those of us importing our little pen-size lasers to play around with though....



Archane, thanks for all the info. I just did a quick google on that Schedule B info and it says the Schedule B numbers are for exports and the Harmonized Tariff Schedule is for imports. Any chance you know where I could look up the corresponding info for HTS, and how a foreign shipper would go about declaring that number when shipping? Thanks!

 

[Archane]

HTS is also known as Schedule A numbers. I've just recently started dealing with those because only a few customers actually import INTO the Us that I deal with. You're right, I should have put the A info not the B info, as most of us are trying to get into the US not out of. however the info I placed above does still stand if it's headed outside the US.

here is the site with the HTS numbers on it

http://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff_current.asp

I did a search and we get

84561080.--Machine tools operated by laser or other light or photon beam processes, other than for working metal, nesoi--08/01/2006

which if you look at it has almost the same numbers (ie sub catagories) as the schedule B numbers.


edit----
here is how I found it, this was a search on the census.gov site.
Question
How do I find my import commodity code?
How do I find my Harmonized Tariff Schedule (HTS) number?


Answer
For help with import classification, you must contact your local Customs office.

The United States International Trade Commission allows you to search the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States Annotated (HTSUSA) for import commodity codes.
Because import and export commodity codes match at the six-digit level, you may also use our Schedule B Search to find the first six digits of your import number.


Once you have obtained the six-digit subheading, you can look up the full, ten-digit import code in the HTSUSA.

 

[steve001]

Let me do some digging on my end to see if I can help. question, why are they being pulled in the first place? on what grounds are they saying they needed to be? to my knowledge as long as the laser is shipped without batteries they don't care. if it has no batteries it can be listed as a non-working unit.

Hit me back when you can.

Quite wrong, batteries have nothing too do with how customs determined whether this device was legal for import.
Now for the scary part. Did you know this ? If you order directly a laser from a foreign country our government considers you the importer and as such you can be fined a great deal of money far in excess of what any laser might cost you if the laser in question does not meet FDA safety standards. This info can be found within the FDA site. Here's one article to start
Important Information for Laser Pointer Manufacturers
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhealth/products/lpm.html

 

[Archane]

Yes, as the importer you are bound by the US laws and as such need to be aware of any possible legal problems you might face. The number of people I talk to on a daily basis that don't think anything about the crap they ship amazes me.

"What do you mean I can't ship bullets to Iran?" (i'm serious, I got a call about that)

if you are importing or exporting something for the first time, for the love of god do some research before you get gl0ryholed by uncle sam.

as far as the battery thing, yes you can do that. I know what your thinking and you have to understand that customs considers non-working and non-functional 2 different things. notice I said non-working as withoiut batteries the unit will not work, but it is still functional. I know, I don't get it either but thats how they look at it. just don't EVER list a unit as a demo unit, you don't need that kind of trouble.