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Old 02-09-2012, 03:43 AM #33
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Hi Folks,

I don't frequent this site much. As such, I don't run into posts unless they are brought to my attention.

Since some of the information on our LASORB web site is mentioned, I'd like a chance to make some comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Thumbs down. Not on their product, but on their site being put forward as an info resource.
I'm sorry that you felt this way. As for it being an information resource, personally I believe it is. The reason I believe it is, is because if you look for information on laser diode protection and ESD, there really isn't much out there at all. We put this site up to give information about what we've learned through our own experiments. This should be informative.

Sure, there are a lot of things out there which are being used, but that simply do not work (sorry, testing proves this). And I believe it is a benefit to communicate to people a) what doesn't work, and b) why it doesn't work.

When the LASORB web site was first established, it gave the information about what doesn't work, and why it doesn't work (but no information about LASORB as a product, since that was still in development). Still and yet, knowing what and why is important. Indeed, the only way we were able to solve the ESD problem was understanding that which we put forth on our site. If we had the information presented here, we'd have come to our conclusions and developments much quicker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
Go buy a 0.25 cent Transient Voltage Suppression diode with clamping voltage slightly higher then your diode's Vfwd.
Hehe. Sorry, but that won't work for the reasons set forth on the LASORB web site. To recap, the reason is a), you can't really chose a voltage so close to the forward voltage of a laser diode -- one reason being, that voltage changes with time and temperature, and b) if you look at the datasheets for these voltage clamping approaches, during an actual ESD event, the forward voltage does far exceed the clamping voltage (perhaps 20V). In our experience, exceeding the forward voltage of a laser diode even by just a little bit, and even for just a brief instant, is enough to damage the mirrors on a laser diode.

Real testing with real ESD will prove what we have written on our site.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
From what I understood, a lasorb is just a fancly packaged varistor and a anti-parralel diode(dont have time to read thorugh pangolin's site, so if Im wrong there, feel free to point it out)
Hehe. You have time to make many posts on the Laser Pointer Forums, and time to draw conclusions about our product, but not time to read through our site? How would we like it if professors at universities had this same attitude? Or how about drug researchers?

LASORB wouldn't have been awarded a German Patent, or had 17 patent claims approved by the International Search Authority if it were "just a fancy packaged varistor and an anti-parallel doide"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
What I do have a problem with, when there are blant, right-in-your-face products that will do the same thing the more expensive product does, but at fractions of the cost.
I'd have a problem with that too, if it were true. But at least in the case of LASORB, it is not...

LASORB is special, because it works on the basis of a rate-of-change-of-voltage, not on the basis of a specific clamping voltage as virtually all other products do.

And we would not have so many customers buying this, including top universities and government institutions, if it was really nonsense!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
I don't know why, but I'm just super-skeptical that there is anything in a Lasorb that is a non-standard component. When you read their website, it sounds like they're phrasing things (especially descriptions about their product) to direct you away from any specific knowledge of what's inside.

I'm sure they work - but I'm also sure that they don't contain anything that couldn't be sourced from Mouser/Digikey for one-tenth of the price.
Hehe. Well I can guarantee you that what's in LASORB is not available from Digikey or Mouser. We researched laser diode protection, came up with the protection scheme, and applied for a patent for it in around a month's time. We then spent the next year finding the perfect components to achieve the design -- looking literally all over the world. In the case of one part of LASORB, we sourced the silicon from only one place in the world, which for me was an entirely unlikely place. If not for Ante on our team knowing about it, our LASORB parts would not be as good as they are.

In any case, LASORB has been available and on the market for around four years now. We now have thousands of clients who rely on LASORB to protect their laser diodes -- including the biggest name brands. Even these guys are interested in saving money. They would not use LASORB if they didn't think it worked.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
Yeah, that site seems very strong on marketing, and weak on benevolent info. The quiz is not very useful, especially as the situations seem very contrived. Who is going to attach a long copper braid to the inputs of a laser diode except only in the most temporary of circumstances?
Hehe. Well the point was to show something surprising. Even a direct short across the terminals of a laser diode with copper braid -- something that has great "skin effect" -- is not enough to protect a laser diode from ESD. The conclusion can be drawn -- if copper braid isn't good enough, what is?

Another conclusion is -- if you put the ESD protection scheme (whatever the scheme) 3 meters away from the laser diode (i.e. at the driver), it simply is useless at protecting the laser diode, of ESD can approach the laser diode itself.

So I'm sorry that you yourself found the Quick Quiz to be useless, but I believe there is indeed very useful information here, and we've received comments from others which agreed that the information is surprising, and enlightening.

As a final comment on this particular topic, try to find this kind of information literally anywhere else on the internet!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
I think LASORBs are probably just a variant of this ESD protection circuit Sandia National Laboratories investigated for preventing ESD from accidentally triggering laser-diode ignition systems:

http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/acces...003/032100.pdf
Hehe. Indeed this was among the only information on laser diodes and ESD when we started researching this ourselves. But their approach does not work 100% of the time, and they admit this!! Moreover the laser diode they were aiming to protect was a high power laser diode. Try their approach with a 5mW red laser diode with aluminum in the active region ;-)

LASORB is in fact, far better than the approach they came up with. LASORB is 100% effective. We also mention (at least in broad conceptual terms) their approach in and among the discussion of common ESD prevention techniques and why they do not work.


I can appreciate that folks are skeptical. Indeed, I'm one of the most skeptical guys on earth. Just ask anyone who works for me. Everyone has a right to be skeptical and try our product to make sure it works. And everyone has a right to their own opinion -- but not to their own facts ;-)

The information presented on the LASORB web site is fact. Moreover, LASORB as a product does work, and -- once you understand ESD, and why laser diodes are more sensitive than any other junction-based electronic component, you'll understand why only LASORB can possibly protect them. LASORB has also been granted a German Patent, granted preliminary clearance for International Patent, and is being used by the top named companies in the laser industry. Sure, it's more expensive than a TVS or similar typical-silicon-protecting components, but those components simply won't work against real ESD. (If they did, we wouldn't have spent our time developing LASORB.).

For anyone serious about protecting their laser diode investment, we believe the cost of LASORB is very reasonable. But that's only our opinion (and the opinion of thousands of others). Of course everyone is free to make up their own minds as to how much money to spend on protection, but it should be understood exactly how much protection you are getting for your money!

Best regards,

William Benner



Last edited by Pangolin; 02-09-2012 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:57 PM #34
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

...well said.

Mr Brenner has a lot to offer this forum. I see absolutly no disrespect coming from him towards LPF. Rather than treat him with hostility we should not assume that his only motives are to sell a few 8$ lasorbs to LPF members.
This is MY thread.
Do not expect me to take lightly any bashing in it.
If you want to post about your esd device, bash Pangolin , etc plz go start your own thread.


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Old 02-09-2012, 10:25 PM #35
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
This is MY thread.
Come now, this is not YOUR thread, this is a public forum. You cannot "own" discussion. Discussion doesn't "belong" to anyone, discussion is the product of interaction. If you want ownership and control over content, you create a static website.

I agree that bashing is silly, and I agree that Mr. Brenner deserves our respect (as does anyone else who approaches our community respectfully). But don't go down the farcical route of suggesting that an original poster should be given some elevated right to control the trajectory of discourse in a thread, merely by virtue of the fact that they initiated it.

This is illogical and antithetical to the notion of open interaction that is inherent in the definition of a "forum".
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:07 PM #36
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

If I may humbly interject:

Generally speaking, it is considered bad manners to take a thread off of its original track. This thread is borderline, and for the benefit of everybody, perhaps a new thread should be started regarding The Protector. It seems like a very viable and useful idea that will take off if enough people actually hear about it.

I've always thought of the Lasorb as a device meant to protect expensive diodes. Sure, if you spent $5 on a 300mW 660nm diode, you probably won't pay $8 to protect it. However, if you spent some ridiculous amount of money on a special diode, say one of the newer green direct injection diodes, $8 is a drop in the bucket, and well worth it.

Can't wait for test results of The Protector, though. Nice board design, wonder if it can fit an amc7135 too...
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:46 PM #37
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
This is MY thread.
Do not expect me to take lightly any bashing in it.
If you want to post about your esd device, bash Pangolin , etc plz go start your own thread.


hak
Len I love ya, but once again you're posting a sales thread disguised as a "find". You do this all the time. And once again you've been called out. Will you ever learn?

As rhd said, this is an open forum. Avery works very hard to keep it thit way, and was the single reason this forum was created. To speak OPENLY about all laser technology.

Highly intelligent members are on this thread trying to help the whole community, and you keep shooting them down on their every effort. Then the owner of the company "happens" to chime in? Who the hell are you trying to fool here.

Len, stay focused, we are here to help people, not just benefit from them. You seem to never get this. As been said, you should of just posted this in the company section. Instead you place it into the tutorials, help, and repair section and expect the experts not to comment? Seriously? What are you thinking man?

Thanks to all you guys for keeping the forum, and hobby moving forward. You guys (and others) truly keep the spirit of this forum alive. If it was not for you we'd just like LC.

Len, its OK to make a buck, or even help a company. But stop trying to slip it in sideways. People are too smart for that. You are only making yourself look bad. There are proper ways to do things, and this is not the way.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:11 AM #38
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BShanahan14rulz View Post
Can't wait for test results of The Protector, though. Nice board design, wonder if it can fit an amc7135 too...
Lol - I don't know how I forgot about that (because they're sitting right here in front of me), but the PCBs came in, as did the Digikey order, and I made up 15 of them yesterday.

Anyone that wants one, chime in. Preferably people who can actually test this in some fashion (need to have a scope), and be willing to share the results. I will just be sending them in a regular postal envelope, so they may take a while to reach you guys. No worries if it's international. The main deal is just to have these go out to people that can torture them.

Remember guys, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Lasorbs don't work. In fact, I think I said somewhere in this thread that I have no doubt they do! I'm also not claiming that this "Protector" gidget will work. But a number of reputable people have suggested that this approach is a logical and reliable one, so it's worth trying it, hammering on it, killing the idea if it's a bad one, and running with it if it's good That's the nature of a "hobby", lots of testing, and lots of reworking

Hak, I love ya too. Sorry if that came off as harsh.
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Old 02-10-2012, 06:58 PM #39
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

n/p rhd-- and you are always welcome to post in my threads.. and reguardless of what some buffoons say, the Lasorb site has some good reading in it that certainly belongs in the info board-- no way should I post this in 'Companies' as I do not work for Pangolin (btw they have been around 20 years) and although i DO have some extra Lasorbs to part with I dont think my selling them will make me rich ( I make about $1 on each)and I am not stupid enough to think that a bunch will ever be sold to handheld builders. I still have manners and never claim to be a mindreader, too bad that is not the case with others.
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Spacelas 1178mW 655nm/AixiZ 300mW532&
2 B&W 473nm 5/6mW lab
JETLRS1.3W&1.2W-MGL-H
638 180mW ttl mimi lab (av. 230mW)
405 100mW ttl mini lab
445 300 mW ttl mni lab ^AixiZ^ all for a lumia PJ
*MightyMite 2000* RGB all diode 2.2W 30K- 637/520./450...NEW!!
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http://nqlasers.com/scannerreference/index.php?title=Main_Page
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:55 PM #40
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Len, you make a thread called, "EVER KILL A DIODE" in big capital letters, and the first post is a link to a company who sells diode protection. Then when others pop in and offer more help with diode protection you get defensive, and then the freaking owner of the company in your post comes on to defend the product out of the blue. You dont have to be a mind reader to figure it out, LOL, you just had to pass 3rd grade. Seriously Len, do you really believe other wise? Because no one else, other than BShana, bought it.

I've personally seen you do this quite a few times.

We told you how to handle these types of threads, put them in the company section. Thats where they belong. If you're going to continue with the denial, then expect more of this in the future.

You're still my friend, and everyone is trying to help you out. This kind of thread, in this section, is wrong. Please believe this.

Hey, did anyone read this other thread? Inexpensive ESD (static) protection.

Sound familiar?
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:06 PM #41
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

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Old 02-10-2012, 09:10 PM #42
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

hopeless

Len instead of trying to impress companies, and people over at PL, have solace in your friends over here. We care, they dont give a shit.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:12 PM #43
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

blah blah blah
'WE'???
go away
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:20 PM #44
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Yeah WE. You'd think people would waste their time trying to talk to you if no one cared? We have a brotherhood here. As with all families, some are asshats, some are stuck up, ect, but we ALL stick together.

I didnt see Mr. Pangolin defending you, he just defended his product.

Wake up Len.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:34 PM #45
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Two of the several ways you can kill a laser diode are static and heat. Soldering heat needs to be kept at a minimum by using the right temp and doing your soldereing quickly. This is far easier if you have a quality soldering station.
I have handled hundreds of diodes with AFAIK never zapping one,.
and I think this is because I never handle one without my wrist strap on. To be sure my strap is properly grounded I removed the two 'blade'prongs from an extra power cord I had, leaving only the round ground prong. I attach my wrist strap to the green wire. I keep my strap on my working surface to remind me to use it always while working with diodes.
You can also get static free work pads, ankle straps, anti-ststic spray etc but at the very least a wrist strap should be used even if your envirenment is not a dry one. High humididy makes for less static.
here is one on Ebay(NOT my listing btw) only $1.99 and free shipping. But it ships from China so.. you will pay more at RadioShack but no need to wait weeks to get it. You could also make your own. Mine has a current limiting resisitor on it and a metal button the touches your wrist.
New Anti-Static ESD Wrist Strap Band Adjustable protect f Electronics work | eBay
there are 464 more at ebay. Some starting at a penny with free shipping.
The capacitors on drivers etc are a very big danger if you forget to short them out. The wrist strap is no help from your caps. Probably the most common death by cap happens after the current is set with a dummy load and the diode is added without shorting the caps.
here are anti-static gloves for ~$6
2x Anti-static Antistatic ESD Static Computer Gloves | eBay
and there are some brushes that many guys like to use like this one..around $8. w/ free ship
Anti Static Antistatic Mini Plastic Cleaning Brush | eBay

and the work mats are a good method of protection too.
Opening bid od 10$ BIN 25$ with $5 to ship from USA. Made of vinyl and 11X22 inches-
anti static | eBay
Here is the anti-static spray
there are many aerosal spray cans available but not all are made for use with electronics-- I have never used this so but sure you get the right kind and use it properly..if you are going that route.
Lot of 3 Sprayway 955 Anti-Static Eliminator Spray (041911009553) | eBay
and for storage there are a bunch of bags and foam that you can push the diode pins into. Some guys like to put a blob of solder across the pins and I have used a small bit of Al foil to do the same.
these anti-static bags are sometimes referred to as a Faraday cage--'A Faraday cage is a metallic enclosure that prevents the entry or escape of an electromagnetic (EM) field.'
From Wiki:
"A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure formed by conducting material or by a mesh of such material. Such an enclosure blocks out external static and non-static electric fields. Faraday cages are named after the English scientist Michael Faraday, who invented them in 1836.[1]"
I dont claim to be an electronics expert so if I have erred in the above I invite correction and apoligize.
hope this has been helpful
hak
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KGB- 532 1.1W 445 2.2W 655 1.3W DT Pro 40 still needs more red.
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LPMs-RadiantAlpha& Pro5W-AixiZ SPER/KenmeterLite/LB1
Spacelas 1178mW 655nm/AixiZ 300mW532&
2 B&W 473nm 5/6mW lab
JETLRS1.3W&1.2W-MGL-H
638 180mW ttl mimi lab (av. 230mW)
405 100mW ttl mini lab
445 300 mW ttl mni lab ^AixiZ^ all for a lumia PJ
*MightyMite 2000* RGB all diode 2.2W 30K- 637/520./450...NEW!!
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Last edited by hakzaw1; 02-11-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:32 PM #46
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

I've got about 10 or so disposable wrist straps. I never can tell if they do anything, but I haven't killed anything yet. Then again, a lot of people don't kill anything and they solder their diodes while sitting on the carpet wearing wool socks.

I was wondering about grounded soldering irons, can't it be as simple as taking a piece of wire and bolting it to the tip and grounding it to the outlet? I don't have a nice station, and I think a lot of those have grounded irons. Mine is just the cheap-o radiohut iron.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:17 AM #47
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

I used cheapo for a long time but a nice old Hak Station is much better- and quicker recovery too. It has a ground plug on back IIRC.+
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Spacelas 1178mW 655nm/AixiZ 300mW532&
2 B&W 473nm 5/6mW lab
JETLRS1.3W&1.2W-MGL-H
638 180mW ttl mimi lab (av. 230mW)
405 100mW ttl mini lab
445 300 mW ttl mni lab ^AixiZ^ all for a lumia PJ
*MightyMite 2000* RGB all diode 2.2W 30K- 637/520./450...NEW!!
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:40 AM #48
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BShanahan14rulz View Post
I was wondering about grounded soldering irons, can't it be as simple as taking a piece of wire and bolting it to the tip and grounding it to the outlet? I don't have a nice station, and I think a lot of those have grounded irons. Mine is just the cheap-o radiohut iron.
Yes. You can run an extra wire along with the power wires of the soldering iron, and hook it to the screws that connect the metal part of the iron to the plastic handle. If you have an extra 3 prong plug and wire, you can just swap out the whole wire. Another trick is to hook the iron up to a light dimmer switch. Then you can control the heat. So if you have a high watt iron, you can bring it down to whatever temp you want. No station needed. Cost of the switch set up is under $10.
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